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[11:07 AM] Ubit Umarov: ok andrew seems a bit late..
[11:08 AM] Ubit Umarov: hmm about code changes... think there was a tiny one
[11:09 AM] Ubit Umarov: ohh yes.. flotsam cache had a potential issue when forcing the replace of a asset. fixed it
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: also on future dotnet the word 'filed'is now a reserved keyword only if inside a property get/set ( not outsie great ms consistency )
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: we had one case on YEngine that would be a problem
[11:11 AM] Bill's Chair: This is Bill's Chair
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc dotnet 10 does not work
[11:12 AM] Bill's Chair: This is Bill's Chair
[11:12 AM] Ubit Umarov: tehy removed more things, and did broke others ( the above was a simple case )
[11:12 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: hi
[11:13 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: lol having seat issues i guess
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: so dotnet will staty as Not supported
[11:13 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: i will try that one :)
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: that chair is still reserved
[11:13 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So no chance in hell for Dotnet 10 in future?
[11:13 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: oh now i see sorry
[11:13 AM] Ubit Umarov: dotnet 8 is fine
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc dotnet 10 will not be supported by some machines that do handle 8
[11:14 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: i remoed the binaryformatter and replaced with MessagePack seems to be running ok
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah that is one of the problems
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: binary formatter is also uses on YEngine and KFM
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: used
[11:15 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: yes in the error and fallback only i think
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: and ofc asset cache
[11:15 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: that i remember
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: kfm and yengine will mean incompatibity btw regions, objects crossing and teleports
[11:16 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: well i have a million assets in the store and i've seen 4 edge cases i need to check out but haven't had a chance
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: assets cache is local
[11:16 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: i haven't had any issues at all with that
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel KFM does use it
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: YENgine may only ose it on some features currently off
[11:17 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: You mean they will be incompatible with the new change, or compat fixed
[11:17 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. Unfortunately (for me) work is still getting in the way of things. I have final tweaks to make on some software needed for hardware that is supposed to ship this evening. I hope that RL stuff will slow down enough for me to be joining all of you at these meetings once again.
[11:17 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: as i remember, it's been a few weeks but there's four places it's used
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: anyway MessagePack is a good option
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: i till did not decided btw that and CBOR
[11:18 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: anyway. i've been testing with MessagePack and can say there aren't issues that i've seen except four assets complaining, but not sure it's about that.
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: they should all work fine
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc you lose all the things that where in cache :)
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: anyway see no reason to rush into dotnet 10
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: 8 is officially supported till Nov
[11:20 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: as long as dotnet 8 remains forward compatible
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: there is no fw compatibilty
[11:21 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: well code is on github but i recently modified tp code to transfer av appearance over memory cache system so i can pull that stuff out if anyone wants to try it.. tps are much faster now. a bit too aggressive at times but i should probably increase the delay by a second or two. it has to pretend that the viewer asked for a rebake :)
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: at most some back...
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: soemthing MS now loves to destry
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: memry cache is still a scary thing
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: GC is still a total crap on that
[11:22 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: well i have no fear giggles
[11:22 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: it's working. but could use more delay.
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: things that live a bit longer, my still be considered permanent by GC and never released
[11:23 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: well there's a ttl
[11:23 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: they only live for a bit
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: GC has its own ideas
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: one thing is our code decide to drop the reference, other very diferent is the resources to be freed by GC
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: and GC in server mode is even worse
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: they keep changing it.. but did not notice much improvements
[11:26 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: well the appearance transfer happens in EntityTransferModule i think
[11:26 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: and Scene
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: bc their application models is abotu microservices or short lived apps
[11:26 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: anyway it's not important
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: not long live server apps like opensim
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah teleports are its major use
[11:27 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: i could strip the attachments and put them back on after tp but it might be weird. would have to check how far they are tp'ing because walking across a sim boundary would be nutty if it did that lol
[11:28 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: but tp without attachments is hella fast
[11:28 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: haha
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: dont see why cache on that..
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: that is something to move into a binary serializer also
[11:28 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: in OS avs have like 30 or more attachments lol
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeha but cache will not save you much on that
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: you still need to send them
[11:29 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: yes of course
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: well serialize a object in binary would mean a large save
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: out of crap XML
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: but thats a lot of things :)
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: and worse.. imcompatibity with other regions
[11:31 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: yes
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: so in a long dusty TODO List
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: but what is yr github?
[11:34 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: its https://github.com/holoneon/opensim i'm a bit behind - 5 commits - but i will get it caught up to head. maybe today
[11:34 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: there are some warnings i went through so it builds without warnings now but it's little stuff
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: well that silly bug was a important fix :)
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: dotnet 10 adds several new warnings on top of my ref ones
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: namely on use of read
[11:35 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: oh yes i haven't tired 10 yet
[11:35 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: with opensim
[11:35 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: hasn't been a goal but i suppose it's a good idea
[11:36 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: 8 will be deprecated before we know it! :)
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: in many places we always assumed ( and right) that a read does read all the requested bytes
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: that that is not spec
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: so we get the warnings
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc very strange is read from a memostream does not read all bytes..
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: but warning still there
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: well 8 has 4 visible warnings
[11:38 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: not for me anymore
[11:38 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: i did get rid of Tools though. some people might use that
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: dotnet 10 does compile without errors and like 20 warnings
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: then totally blows up at runtime :p
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: bc of the damm bin serializer
[11:38 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: i didn't bother messing with it, some of it looks like windows 3.1 stuff lol kidding
[11:39 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: but it's the old way of making windows forms apps (in my opiinon)
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel win forms in 3.1 was fun
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: one of 2 pages of code to print Hello world
[11:40 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: it is a stretch goal to get rid of shipped binaries and move to nuget but i haven't tackled that yet
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: or or two
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: i dont like nuget at all
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: just a pile of garbage
[11:40 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Amen
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: opensim ngc did move to nuget
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: and you lose control of what you are reannung
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: sadly dotnet it self is that crap now
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: UPDATE CODE IS NOT A GOOD THING all the time
[11:42 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: well i'm not a fan of ngc. i ran it awhile ago on another grid
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: many examples where a update meant to get a nice nerw virus/trojan
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: nuget is just a HIGHWAY to well to hell :)
[11:43 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: well. perhaps that's true.
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: but yeah sadly we can avoid it on our code.. but dotnet itself will do it
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: like windows..
[11:43 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: i haven't heard much of trojans from nuget but stuff like node is often in the news
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: one way you will boot you box and learn you need pay ms 100 euros to use it
[11:44 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: i avoid node things lol
[11:44 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: eek
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: well use of nuget on opensim is another things i will delay as much as possible
[11:45 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: ok well it's maybe a future goal but not pressing for me
[11:45 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Haven't needed it thus far, why start now
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: for now, i just unzip the crap pack and take the lib i do need
[11:46 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: yes i had to figure that part out but i think i learned how to do it
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: sadly does not work with few.. guess what... ones made by ms
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: like the old binformaters they suposely provide on a package
[11:50 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Just invites a mess like last time postgres broke and one of the solutions would have meant piling 12 dlls into there bloating it all up just to support a single line of code. Much like the debacle with mysql connector lib. Ease of such things invite sloppy code and bloat
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: you did remove some try/catch on file operations
[11:51 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: oh yes. i use postgres for asset meta data with WAL streaming but i haven't put the other stuff on it
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: you must trust messagepack a lot :p
[11:52 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: but i need to run to meet someone for lunch. you and vincent and the others do great work and i appreciate it. will see you next week
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: Quaternion rootRot = rotations[0]; Quaternion rootRotConj = Quaternion.Conjugate(in rootRot);
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: is not a fix
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: is adding several extra copies of 16byes thing
[11:53 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: oooh i will check it out. i do make mistakes :)
[11:53 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: thanks
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: while if you do ignore that warning all works
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: it is not a formaly mistake.. is to do what ms tells
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: and that is not always good :p
[11:54 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: yes
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: those 4 warnings for nwo are just that
[11:54 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me tiptoes out -- see you later
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: cya
[11:55 AM] Bianca.Blast @hg.holoneon.com: see you i need to run as well - until next time
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: the code does avoid extra copies
[11:55 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: what is her fork for?
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: and in some case gets some inlining.. so not even the address is pushed in stack
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc we will never get the optimization that system numerics gets
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: bc that is not even written in c#
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: the runtime totally inores the IL and uses native code
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: adn even knows how to optimize simd registers.
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: c# coders do not get that on own math libs
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: well details..
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: and who cares.. soon only AI will make code
[11:59 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's annoying when those things happen on code that is used often as the slowdown gets measurable at times
[11:59 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If it was just nanoseconds it'd be that, but it goes beyond all too often
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: it is nanoseconds every where
[12:01 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Until they add up to milliseconds ;)
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: by end of day it is even minutes
[12:02 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Stuff of nightmares
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: well any opensim issue to talk today ?
[12:03 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Nothing worth repeating to the whole group lol
[12:03 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I finally was able to reproduce that missing prims issue on a region so looking into that with TJ to see where the comms break down
[12:04 PM] Ubit Umarov: oh? nice
[12:04 PM] Ubit Umarov: repo is a good advance to find a fix
[12:04 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Now just a hundred lines of code to check and find first to figure out what might be wrong hehe
[12:04 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's really strange issue and so far only seems to happen to 0.1% of regions
[12:06 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's interesting that between kdu and openjpeg different prims fail to load
[12:06 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That makes me think maybe not comms but actual render failing, but nothing in the log about that
[12:07 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I swear I attract the weirdest of bugs. Then again this is known SL bug
[12:07 PM] Ubit Umarov: or ripped off textures
[12:07 PM] Ubit Umarov: i told you..
[12:07 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's also failing to load basic prims with default texture so somewhere the pipeline ruptures
[12:07 PM] Ubit Umarov: modern openjpeg fails if the file is not complete
[12:08 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah but kdu is bugged too so it cannot be just that
[12:08 PM] Ubit Umarov: that also fails with viewers textures downloas
[12:08 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It might be a clue but is a symptom
[12:08 PM] Ubit Umarov: as i said you need to use the version henry uses on openvl
[12:09 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Weirdly I couldn't reproduce the crash to desktop after I compiled it again
[12:09 PM] Ubit Umarov: KDU does not care about size of the "file"as long it sees what it needed
[12:09 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Little code gremlins in there
[12:14 PM] Ubit Umarov: ok rl calls
[12:14 PM] Ubit Umarov: hope to see you all next week, if not before.. have fun
