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[12:01 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[12:01 PM PT] Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: Andrew
[12:01 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: omg - sorry
[12:01 PM PT] Clifford.Hanger @alternatemetaverse.com:8002: hi Andrew {loading)
[12:01 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: old habit
[12:01 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:01 PM PT] Lyr Lobo smiles in welcome
[12:01 PM PT] Clifford.Hanger @alternatemetaverse.com:8002: hey Joe
[12:01 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: The beer is better in that seat
[12:01 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Joe
[12:01 PM PT] Lyr Lobo laughs
[12:02 PM PT] Clifford.Hanger @alternatemetaverse.com:8002: hi Vincent
[12:02 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: catualy the lighting is terrible in this seat
[12:02 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: Hello everyone!
[12:02 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I look green
[12:02 PM PT] Lyr Lobo grins
[12:03 PM PT] Clifford.Hanger @alternatemetaverse.com:8002: something you ate gavin?
[12:03 PM PT] Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: Gotta watch that spinach...
[12:03 PM PT] Clifford.Hanger @alternatemetaverse.com:8002: ruins shirts!
[12:03 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: The clocks changed in North America this weekend. That should get us all back on the same time for the meeting.
[12:05 PM PT] Clifford.Hanger @alternatemetaverse.com:8002: very quiet today?
[12:05 PM PT] Clifford.Hanger @alternatemetaverse.com:8002: any thoughts progress on voice?
[12:05 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I susually don't eat light, no :-)
[12:06 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: usually*
[12:06 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Well, and urgent but easy fix issue came up yesterday, with the macOS unmanaged libraries. I opened a Mantis and attached some updated libs
[12:07 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: The only thing I have done the last week is to get the Windows viewer to build with Visual Studio 2022
[12:07 PM PT] Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: Quite an accomplishment, that
[12:07 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: plus some other build issues on macOS because Apple has been creative again
[12:07 PM PT] Clifford.Hanger @alternatemetaverse.com:8002: dayturn?
[12:07 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes
[12:08 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: opensim is non-op on macOS until the new libs are swapped in to to dotnet6 branch
[12:08 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: is it?
[12:08 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yep
[12:08 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Cuga, The change log shows the libraries as having been pushed to the code repo.
[12:08 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have not had any issues
[12:09 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: great
[12:09 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: then macOS people will need to update
[12:09 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you start anything from terminal the signature isn't even checked
[12:09 PM PT] Jagga Meredith: I'm now a MacOS people. God fed up with Windoze.
[12:09 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: no ttrue
[12:09 PM PT] Clifford.Hanger @alternatemetaverse.com:8002: this affects just nessie or all builds?
[12:10 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: macOS specifically, dotnet6 branch
[12:10 PM PT] Clifford.Hanger @alternatemetaverse.com:8002: ty
[12:11 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what version of macOS?
[12:11 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: it was a code signing issue, may have been my fault
[12:11 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: The libs will run on any macOS 10.15-114.x
[12:11 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: but code signing issue will break on all of them
[12:12 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: oops I mean 10.5-latest
[12:12 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: 10.15-latest
[12:12 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: all right, you say you cannot sign it any more
[12:12 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I can sign it, and did
[12:12 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but the old ones runs perfecty fine
[12:12 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: the problem has to do with the developer cerytificate needing to be renewed annually
[12:13 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: The certificate I used to sign the macOS libs was originally created November 2022, and I got an email from Apple that they were going to expire and I needed to create new ones
[12:13 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sure but the signature is never checked if it is just a lib running in some other process under BSD
[12:14 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: as part of creating new ones, I had to revoke the old cert, whiuch is the one used to sign the macOS unmanaged libs
[12:14 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: when did you revoke it?
[12:15 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: The day after I revoked the old cert, my server auto-retarts oensim evenry Monday morning, and it failed to start. Could not load any of the 3 unmanaged libs
[12:15 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: same result on x86_64 Mac and arm64 Mac
[12:15 PM PT] Clifford.Hanger @alternatemetaverse.com:8002: hi kayaker
[12:15 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So I re-signed the same binaries with the new cert, dropped them in, and it worked again
[12:15 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: starting a simmulator now. not a pip
[12:15 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: with the old libs
[12:15 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: hmm, no idea why your result is different
[12:16 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: glad to hear though
[12:16 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: i did push the new libs for mac, a hour or so ago
[12:16 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have an idea, lemme check
[12:16 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: and those where last week "code changes"
[12:16 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: it did give me a scare, that others are having same problem, so I re-signed them and pushed the new ones to Mantis
[12:17 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: we need to understand this better. ideally should not have to re-sign unmanaged libs once a year
[12:17 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Gavin, perhaps we can look into this tigether away from meeting
[12:17 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sure
[12:18 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: so if anyone usins macOS is having trouble starting up opensim /dotnet6 just need to update
[12:18 PM PT] Jagga Meredith: k
[12:18 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: thanks for pushing those into repo
[12:19 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well thx for providign them :)
[12:20 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: stupid Apple :/
[12:20 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yvw :) glad it happened after I was back from travel
[12:22 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if I do codesign -v -v on your old libs
[12:23 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it sayus:
[12:23 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: libBulletSim.dylib: valid on disk
[12:23 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: those that where testing fs 7.0 alpha and did update, somethings no longer work due to ll change on protocol
[12:23 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: libBulletSim.dylib: satisfies its Designated Requirement
[12:23 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: try codesign -d --verbose=2 --extract-certificates [file]
[12:23 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: changes on inveotry procotol seems working on that and main beta
[12:24 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: just it shows now inventory thumnails and those do not work
[12:24 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: [REDACTED]
[12:24 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: since they only use code dependent on AISv3
[12:24 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: did I dox you now?
[12:25 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: wel thats a thing abotu soft sign.. no anonimate
[12:26 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well unless apple allows it?
[12:26 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they don't
[12:26 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: LL rushing things out more than usual working on different things at the same time causing everything to break huh
[12:26 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Just edit the above out from the minutes, pls
[12:27 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yeah, their development process is a complete mess as seen from outside
[12:27 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: Ohh vicent canm you edit out that name, later, before uploading the log?
[12:27 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Will do
[12:27 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: gavin is that from ther old libs? I get a different result, weird
[12:27 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: thanks
[12:27 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes it is
[12:28 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: well it's nice to see, but not clear why we are gettign diff results. Will look into this later
[12:28 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yup
[12:30 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Yes, LL is pushing out more stuff. But there was a 3-year period during which they did very little. This is progress
[12:30 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: actually they did a heck of a lot in the background Joe
[12:30 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: brb
[12:30 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well would be progress if it where good things.. but details ;)
[12:30 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: as they seem to do agaon
[12:31 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Right, they had to clean up a lot to get onto AWS. Old versions of libraries...
[12:31 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: hmm they are at aws for years now
[12:31 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'd wish they'd think a bit more about how things get implemented so the new functions in LSL would make a bit more sense
[12:32 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: thing is that they had moved to sansar..
[12:32 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have said it before, I am pretty sure they are developing an xbox version of the viewer
[12:32 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: and did very little on sl
[12:33 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they may also drop Mac support, because they have updated the build instructions for the Windows version, but the Mac version instructions are significantly outdated
[12:33 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah those game control changes are annoying too, as if xbox was the only controller out there, would have liked some more modularity on that
[12:34 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: and yet they are working on an iPad viewer
[12:34 PM PT] Jagga Meredith: kewl
[12:34 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: those on top of the mobile viewer?
[12:34 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Game controller support will use the Human Interface Device standard. That supports most things that plug into a USB port.
[12:34 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: more serious is their chief tech (cannot remember his name) said i one of their podcasts / videos that "Mac users will lag behind Windows users in functionality and performance, but we will try to have an option also for these users"
[12:34 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: or those are realy the mobile project?
[12:34 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: no idea, its a hush-hush Linden project
[12:34 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: bhut they do post their progress from time to time
[12:35 PM PT] Joe Magarac: It's apparently written in C# but that's all I know.
[12:35 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: LL posted an update about it in October
[12:35 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: The mobile project is running on Vulkan
[12:35 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Mobile viewer gonna work real well with lludp and spotty connections unless they want to move all into tcp now, yay protocol overhead isn't something we already have enough of
[12:35 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: c# on xbox? ll is really good on using the wrong tools for a job ;)
[12:36 PM PT] Joe Magarac: I'm wondering if the mobile viewer has some extra server support.
[12:36 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I suspect they are not doing any UDP
[12:36 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: but thats just a guess
[12:36 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Don't know.
[12:36 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is a crippled version of Vulcan called MoltenVK, that translates it to Metal, but it is a subset only
[12:36 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and Apple has made major updates to Metal lately
[12:37 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: old idea for mobile was kinda server side video streaming of a client
[12:37 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: soemthing done for several games... that even can be played on tvs
[12:37 PM PT] Joe Magarac: There is a plan to migrate some more things to the event poller channel. But after the Materials debacle, that isn't looking as good. Too much LLSD overhead.
[12:37 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: bahh materials problem was not llsd overhaed
[12:38 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: was/is LSL nonsense
[12:38 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I will not be surprised they are writing a DirectX 12 renderer, and dropping Mac support
[12:38 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: plus JSON embeded on llsdxml
[12:38 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Sure it was. Someone made a disco floor where every tile changed material on every beat. 50 MB/minute of LLSD over the event poller channel.
[12:39 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: gltf sees a fun thign to help sells... but a very bad format to use on fast streaming
[12:39 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Agreed.
[12:39 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: seems..
[12:39 PM PT] Joe Magarac: So t hey changed to some UDP mesages for material overrides.
[12:39 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: wo yea at least they changed that...
[12:40 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: sadly adding extra work on servers.. bc tehy still upload data in gltf and send to viewers in compact LLSD notation
[12:40 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: guess theirs servers have to do that transcode on the fly per prim face... so clever...
[12:40 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: This is going to strain viewer development in regards to compatibility and make every code merge even more annoying
[12:40 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Does anyone know what the Sansar renderer was written in (it did not have Mac support)
[12:41 PM PT] Joe Magarac: No idea how Sansar did things.
[12:41 PM PT] Joe Magarac: I use WGPU, which is supposed to supprot Mac, but I havent' tested it.
[12:41 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: looking to new ll code.. seems sansar did things badly :P
[12:41 PM PT] Clifford.Hanger @alternatemetaverse.com:8002: silly question time ~~ are we this dependant on LL?
[12:41 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm back.
[12:41 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I suppose one could find out if there is an old client installer somewhere
[12:41 PM PT] Joe Magarac: If a Mac dev would like to try, talk to me.
[12:41 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes we are
[12:42 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: OpenSim viewers are 95% LL code
[12:42 PM PT] Clifford.Hanger @alternatemetaverse.com:8002: is that healthy?
[12:42 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: wel the dependence rope may be abotu to break( again )
[12:42 PM PT] Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: It has never been "healthy"
[12:42 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Right.
[12:42 PM PT] Clifford.Hanger @alternatemetaverse.com:8002 listens
[12:42 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: some ll changes are jsut too bad to follow
[12:42 PM PT] Joe Magarac: I am behind on keeping Sharpview up with LL. Sharpview is 0% LL code. 100% Rust.
[12:43 PM PT] Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: We are dependent on the viewer writers, and they are the ones that don't want to separate us
[12:43 PM PT] Clifford.Hanger @alternatemetaverse.com:8002: understood
[12:43 PM PT] Clifford.Hanger @alternatemetaverse.com:8002: includes dayturm?
[12:43 PM PT] Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: I am hoping Joe here will give us a code base that allows the separation
[12:43 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well when fs did sperated us, they stopped doing any code for us..
[12:43 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the problem is that nobody are capable of rewriting the renderer
[12:43 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes also dayturn
[12:44 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: dayturn already does not ahve some ll blablacode :)
[12:44 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Whenevery someone wants the code, I point them at an open source test of the rendering stack that I have, and ask them to compile and build it. So far, nobody has.
[12:44 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: on macOS Apple has said they will park OpenGL and the only thing running on macOS is Metal
[12:44 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: once OpenGL is toast
[12:45 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: seem thing thing vulkan will run on mac??
[12:45 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ...think...
[12:45 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it wont
[12:45 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is a subset
[12:45 PM PT] Joe Magarac: If you want to try, build this: https://github.com/John-Nagle/ui-mock
[12:45 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and Apple has done major changes in Metal 3 to make support for the VR headset
[12:45 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that Vulkan cannot do
[12:46 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's multiple things combined that make it so bad. The practice of merging mainline code then reverting and changing things back to add compatibility or fix LL code. Then you have a large dependency tree and quite complex setup to build the viewer making development slow as you wait for it to build. So it's a dev and devops issue and you still have to watch out for LL curve balls
[12:46 PM PT] Joe Magarac: It's a dummy game - same stack as Sharpview.
[12:46 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: "100% safe Rust." hmm :)
[12:46 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: correct Vincent
[12:46 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Works on windows and Linux. Try building it on MacOS and let me know how that works.
[12:46 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is a real pain
[12:46 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: i don't think my car rust is 100% safe ..
[12:47 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: bookmarked your repo
[12:47 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Try that out, please. If there are problems I will help. But I don't have any Mac gear.
[12:48 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: guess rust like c# will not need sign on mac?
[12:48 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: wel assuming c# will not need it..
[12:48 PM PT] Joe Magarac: It produces hard executables, so it will probably need signing.
[12:49 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeah was thinking that on AOT compile
[12:49 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: even if it is running Rust, in will have to be compiled in Xcode for the final app to run as a desktop app, so ideally it must be singed and notraized
[12:49 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: wel in fact apple only allows AOT
[12:50 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Changing the development pipeline and cleaning up the dependency mess would not just benefit us, but make it generally easier to develop a viewer using LL code. That's a big undertaking though and it doesn't completely solve the compatibility problem either
[12:50 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: dotnet c# like opensium must not be singed
[12:50 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: signed
[12:50 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Joe, What other dependencies are there to build the ui-mock apart from needing the rust dev tools?
[12:50 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: xcode isn't involved at all in dotnet builds
[12:50 PM PT] Joe Magarac: It's all handled by Rust's Cargo system.
[12:50 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: opensim could be pre compiled also
[12:50 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: in AOT
[12:51 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ms starts to "sell" that idea..
[12:51 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Just install Rust, try "cargo build", and see what happens.
[12:51 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: As a check the rust-all package pulls in 12 other packages.
[12:51 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: since JIT is... well damm slow :)
[12:51 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sure Ubit, but it does not run as a desktop app
[12:51 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is invoked from the BSD subsystem, and does not need to be signed to run
[12:51 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well i stest AOT long ago still on mono
[12:51 PM PT] Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: Andrew, probably the best way to install it is to use the rust script on their web site
[12:52 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: not the new dotnet6 forms
[12:52 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: hmm or dotnet8
[12:52 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I think we ultimately concluded compiling in release vs debug mode made a bigger difference than aot for most things
[12:52 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I suppose I could try and compile opensim in VS for macOS
[12:52 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but I cannot see it makes a difference
[12:53 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well performance change btw AOT and JIT is mostly on methods loading
[12:53 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if it was an iOS app with na UI, sure, then i had to be signed, and the final build is done by Xcode
[12:53 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but not for something invoked by the BSD subsystem
[12:53 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: once a method is compiled into native, things stay similar.. in fact jit maybe a bit better
[12:55 PM PT] Clifford.Hanger @alternatemetaverse.com:8002: ok 5 mins left - Is there any work/progress on voice in the last 2 weeks?
[12:55 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: nothing but I have freed up a machine to try the mac version on Mumble
[12:55 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Rome wasn't built in a day :)
[12:55 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and downloaded the executable
[12:55 PM PT] Clifford.Hanger @alternatemetaverse.com:8002: lol vincent
[12:56 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: One of the things that I can't help but notice is that the increase in performance in dotnet does come along with higher cpu usage, which makes me wonder if some code is now so efficient it effectively spams now
[12:57 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Something running twice as fast without any throttle could cause bottlenecks elsewhere
[12:57 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: CPU is always underutilized so thats a good thing
[12:57 PM PT] Clifford.Hanger @alternatemetaverse.com:8002: not seen any dramatic increases
[12:58 PM PT] Clifford.Hanger @alternatemetaverse.com:8002: what i have seen is the opensim library has dissapeared
[12:58 PM PT] Clifford.Hanger @alternatemetaverse.com:8002: but that may be a config issue
[12:58 PM PT] Clifford.Hanger @alternatemetaverse.com:8002: on my part
[12:59 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: what opensim lib?
[12:59 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, Any idea how much of an increase there was in CPU usage?
[12:59 PM PT] Clifford.Hanger @alternatemetaverse.com:8002: in the viewer inventory
[12:59 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well we do have it..
[1:00 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: even on fs beta with recent ll changes to inventory ( guess dayturn does not have them still )
[1:00 PM PT] Clifford.Hanger @alternatemetaverse.com:8002: must be my robust split, missing something
[1:00 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Probably somewhere in the range of 15-30% depending on case. I did notice that it used to be somewhat linear up until a point and now it tends to go up in usage much more quickly and then slows down a bit
[1:00 PM PT] Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: Does the RAM usages match that?
[1:01 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's scary to see usage of 250% cpu with a lot of users
[1:01 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, that's not going to be good for someone running a lot regions on a single box.
[1:01 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Memory usage is way down compared to say three years ago
[1:01 PM PT] Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: Probably part of the tradeoff
[1:01 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: i did made several changes to how we did use memory
[1:01 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: and dotnet gc is a bit better
[1:02 PM PT] Lyr Lobo grins and nods
[1:02 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: but for example all lludp packet buffers are now reused
[1:02 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: that is a lot less stress on gc
[1:03 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I need to explore some ways to profile what goes on and see what takes up the most cpu time, that may point to where something is running a bit too often
[1:03 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ( well that started in 0.9.1 ?? )
[1:03 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: profile needs to do several http requests
[1:03 PM PT] Clifford.Hanger @alternatemetaverse.com:8002: i have 2 identical regions running on nessie and yeti i see minor difference in cpu
[1:04 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: but thing on overall cpu usage is now a lot less also
[1:04 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's just a worry of mine, when you have "natural" throttles in the form of slow code and they suddenly go away you might get hiccups elsewhere when code was tuned to work at similar speeds
[1:04 PM PT] Clifford.Hanger @alternatemetaverse.com:8002: one is 8% the other 9%
[1:04 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: lludp sending is now also done with fastfoward serialization without intermediate structures
[1:05 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: and some some caps..
[1:05 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Next meeting, bye for now.
[1:05 PM PT] Jagga Meredith: could that be within the real of statistical error?
[1:05 PM PT] Clifford.Hanger @alternatemetaverse.com:8002: bye joe
[1:05 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Joe. Thanks for dropping by.
[1:05 PM PT] Jagga Meredith: realm
[1:05 PM PT] Clifford.Hanger @alternatemetaverse.com:8002: i think so
[1:06 PM PT] Clifford.Hanger @alternatemetaverse.com:8002: both regions are empty
[1:06 PM PT] Clifford.Hanger @alternatemetaverse.com:8002: of people
[1:06 PM PT] Clifford.Hanger @alternatemetaverse.com:8002: both have same content
[1:06 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well cpu load is not that a big metric... things need to use cpu to work :P
[1:07 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's difficult to measure that stuff accurately given the amount of variables you have in play. It is mostly just looking at usage during peak hours and comparing that to how things used to behave. Noticing mostly a difference in how usage grows more quickly and then levels off, over a more linear growth
[1:16 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: bad network weather
[1:18 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: bye Vincent!
[1:18 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ok fun networkj glitch
[1:18 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: sorry to dash so fast *laughs* yes, pulled the plug, eh?
[1:18 PM PT] Lyr Lobo teases
[1:19 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: guess someone on a major net node pulled out the wrong cable
[1:19 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: One way to end a meeting
[1:19 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: hehe
[1:19 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: see ya!
[1:19 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: :)
[1:20 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeah rl also calls me :)
[1:20 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: cya aroung
[1:20 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The logging...
[1:21 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: That was an unexpected end to the meeting.
[1:22 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: We all got logged out and the region went away for a bit but we are back.
[1:22 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: mobile viewer experience lol
[1:22 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: As the meeting was just about over I will officially mark it as ended and turn off the chat logger.
