HyperGrid Team/Chat Logs/2009.0429

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[12:02]  Tiffany Sicling: hi Richardus :)
[12:03]  Richardus Raymaker: hi tiffany
[12:03]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: hi Richardus
[12:03]  Tiffany Sicling: I think kidd will be bringing in a web board as well
[12:03]  Richardus Raymaker: hi andreas
[12:04]  Unable to load landmark.  Please try again.
[12:05]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: eagle seem to be at work
[12:05]  Richardus Raymaker: oh
[12:06]  Tiffany Sicling: hrm
[12:06]  Tiffany Sicling: and kidd said we were gonna be packed lol
[12:07]  Richardus Raymaker: kidd told me 9332 have a problem with HG.
[12:07]  Tiffany Sicling is Offline
[12:07]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: hi kidd
[12:07]  kidd piko: hiya Andreas :)
[12:08]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: i have 9332 let me taka a look
[12:08]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: no 9333
[12:08]  Tiffany Sicling is Online
[12:08]  eaglefx Binder is Online
[12:08]  Richardus Raymaker: my map dont move to new coordinate
[12:09]  Tiffany Sicling: don't ya just love client crashes ?
[12:09]  Tiffany Sicling: hehe
[12:09]  Richardus Raymaker: hmm, the getting rare. in normal cases
[12:10]  kidd piko: yes, i've been yhaving Map nightmares myself
[12:10]  kidd piko: just doesn't work
[12:10]  eaglefx Binder: Thanks
[12:10]  Tiffany Sicling: yes, I've heard of map issues, and I even had a few
[12:10]  kidd piko: i beleive that it has been fixed.. just not sure which revision
[12:10]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: hey eagle
[12:10]  eaglefx Binder: i dont bite ;)
[12:11]  Tiffany Sicling: I tried to bring on a fresh copy of 9348 but it just didn't work
[12:11]  Tiffany Sicling: HG or TP to Nibiru caused exceptions thrown
[12:11]  eaglefx Binder: Evening guys sorry i just came hoem from work, so i'm behind ;)
[12:11]  Tiffany Sicling: that's ok
[12:11]  Tiffany Sicling: ty :)
[12:11]  Richardus Raymaker: hello eagle.
[12:11]  eaglefx Binder: you look great Tiffany ;)
[12:11]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: hell to much chat windows
[12:11]  eaglefx Binder: Hi Rich
[12:12]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: to many monitors
[12:12]  Tiffany Sicling: hi eagle
[12:12]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: no control :D
[12:12]  kidd piko: hello Mr. Eagle :)
[12:12]  eaglefx Binder: Ok never mind me i think one of you guys will have to make the wiki unless you just started!
[12:12]  Tiffany Sicling: the meeting is a little late, but that's okay... I want to cover what we have experienced and done in the last week up to now
[12:13]  eaglefx Binder: Oh i c u mede an agenda
[12:13]  Tiffany Sicling: yes, I put up some boards again, and I believe kidd has a web prim to put up too
[12:13]  kidd piko: no, no web prim yet
[12:14]  kidd piko: i can make do without it
[12:14]  Tiffany Sicling: Updates. So far, changes in HG technology has occurred. That touches the Security section too, so those kinda go together.
[12:14]  kidd piko: not a big deal
[12:14]  Tiffany Sicling: due to this, we have to rethink some gate technology
[12:14]  eaglefx Binder: okay
[12:14]  Tiffany Sicling: but as it stands, OSGrid is blocking out external HG av's except only to HG enabled regions.
[12:15]  eaglefx Binder: okay, thats a worse change
[12:15]  Richardus Raymaker: oh, but if i enabel HG in my opensim string the --GUI=true dont work
[12:15]  Tiffany Sicling: Some tests were performed, and found that an HG traveler can come here or to any HG region, but is not allowed on non-HG regions.
[12:16]  kidd piko: right
[12:16]  Tiffany Sicling: However, a HG Traveler can TP to any other HG region
[12:16]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: hm i was in different regions on osgrid
[12:16]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: Greetings all
[12:16]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: hi bruce
[12:16]  Tiffany Sicling: the new revision of the opensim has moved the '-hypergrid=true' into the OpenSim.ini file. Look into the example and you will see it there. it defaults to false.
[12:17]  Richardus Raymaker: is HG also broken on the same grid ? or does that work without HG enabled region ?
[12:17]  kidd piko: i wish Diva was here to explain the 4 new HG related OpenSim.ini settings
[12:17]  Tiffany Sicling: hi Bruce :)
[12:17]  Richardus Raymaker: thanks tiffany
[12:17]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: hi Tiffany
[12:17]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: [22:12] <diva_> sorry, I won't be able to make it to the meeting, I have another meeting right now
[12:17]  Tiffany Sicling: as of 9348, there is just the one setting.
[12:18]  Tiffany Sicling: yes, Diva is unable to make the meeting, but I am sure she will address the questions we have for her in IRC at a later time.
[12:18]  Richardus Raymaker: so, to let my HG work again i need to enabled that
[12:18]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: HG worked fine last night
[12:18]  Richardus Raymaker: i use 9332
[12:19]  Tiffany Sicling: I had talked with kidd earlier about the gates and how to accomodate for these changes and the ones yet to come, as we want to make sure that we are on top of it and any changes made will be dealt with in a timely manner.
[12:19]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: yes me too Richardus
[12:19]  Tiffany Sicling: I had used 9332, but still got some crashes, not sure what that was, but I may end up reinstalling mono AND 9332 to see if that eliminates that issue.
[12:20]  Tiffany Sicling: there is another region at 4000,4000, called Nibiru II, I will break that away from the same console and use that as a testing ground for the new revisions.
[12:21]  Tiffany Sicling: do any of you have any good experiences with revisions that actually stay up and work the longest ? hehe
[12:21]  kidd piko: just what the plazas are running
[12:21]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: 9332 is up since 18+ hours
[12:21]  Richardus Raymaker: 9235 seems for me fine.
[12:21]  kidd piko: r9332
[12:21]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: 9333 seem to be stable
[12:22]  Richardus Raymaker: newer version i need to see. need to do to many restarts for things
[12:22]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: I lied ... 9332 is up since 21 hours
[12:22]  Tiffany Sicling: I'll do a new checkout on mono and opensim to see if I can maintain stability with Nibiru here
[12:22]  Tiffany Sicling: opensim = 9332 for now
[12:22]  Tiffany Sicling: 9350 is now out I noticed in #opensim on irc.freenode.net
[12:22]  Tiffany Sicling: no clue how it is or not
[12:22]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: i can make a fast update
[12:22]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: if needed
[12:23]  Richardus Raymaker: i go first try to make mono 2.4
[12:23]  Tiffany Sicling: well, what I used to do is update maybe once, then new checkout for next time
[12:23]  kidd piko: i stroongly suggest mono 2.4 for linux sims
[12:23]  Tiffany Sicling: but I think I would be better off doing that to a test region first before putting it up here
[12:24]  Richardus Raymaker: i use wget http://ftp.novell.com/pub/mono/sources/mono/mono-2.4.tar.bz2 now
[12:24]  Richardus Raymaker: oops
[12:24]  Richardus Raymaker: this version 20090414
[12:24]  Tiffany Sicling: I would hate to be struggling (like I did earlier, hense the reverting to an older copy 9318) to get the sim up
[12:24]  Tiffany Sicling: I notice there is a new neighbor to Nibiru here
[12:25]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: not that I'vain .. realy im not (hm) ... but am I fully rezzed :-) ???
[12:25]  Tiffany Sicling: Bruce, you are white clothes and normal skinn
[12:25]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: no
[12:25]  Tiffany Sicling: Andreas is gray with brown hair
[12:25]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: gray and dark red are may favorite colors :D
[12:25]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: well you are all fully rezzed for me
[12:25]  Tiffany Sicling: I think the assets/inventory issues still need some work :)
[12:26]  Tiffany Sicling: with HG that is
[12:26]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: that's wy we need Diva here to see for herself
[12:26]  Richardus Raymaker: only andreas is grey
[12:26]  Tiffany Sicling: I'm sure we could get her in here soon enough :)
[12:27]  Tiffany Sicling: if we can just keep note where we go, and what we see, and present that info to her, if she has more than one here and there with same issues, she may focus more into that to see what might be cause and perhaps some patches to help (or explode) with it
[12:28]  Tiffany Sicling: at first, when the HG halted to non-HG regions patch came out, I was like OMG!!!
[12:29]  Tiffany Sicling: but now I can see where that is helpful, but we gotta do what we can to work around it. There is mention about agreememnts with other grids and standalones to allow non-hg travel for a hg traveller
[12:29]  Tiffany Sicling: especially if we became target for PNs again or other griefers
[12:29]  Tiffany Sicling: the way it was, opensim was wide open
[12:30]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: the problem is who is going to enforce it because that involves time and money
[12:30]  Tiffany Sicling: I brought that up to Diva about the security, what if other grids or standalones didn't want that ?
[12:31]  Tiffany Sicling: that's why she stated in the bottom of http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=3530 about including more settings into the *.ini file to adjust for that
[12:32]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: nothing wrong with agreements between grids, just who is going to enforce them and how ?
[12:32]  Tiffany Sicling: Well, I had a talk with kidd about that.
[12:32]  Tiffany Sicling: What can we do with this, and how can we be of help to the situation to accomodate visitors to different grids.
[12:32]  Richardus Raymaker: and what about more HG on 1 grid ? can the all conenct to the otehr. or need that same afrement to ?
[12:32]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: mmh
[12:33]  Richardus Raymaker: other words region based or grid based ?
[12:33]  Tiffany Sicling: There are several options, but these depend on what options will be available to us in the region/grid settings.
[12:33]  Tiffany Sicling: I really cannot glue to just one option, because it may change in an hour or a few days/week
[12:34]  Tiffany Sicling: However, I think she is including some options to allow a non-HG region to allow visitors
[12:34]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: so back to where we started for those then
[12:35]  kidd piko: i beleive that is one of the 4 future OpenSim.ini setting related to HG
[12:35]  Tiffany Sicling: AllowGuests={true|false} ; Allow guest users to visit this region (hypergrid, etc)
AllowHyperlinks={true|false} ; Allow other sims to link to this sim
[12:35]  Tiffany Sicling: with those, we could change regions back to the way they were before
[12:35]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: yep
[12:35]  Tiffany Sicling: for example: AllowGuests=true; AllowHyperlinks=false will emulate the region as it once was.
[12:36]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: yes
[12:36]  Tiffany Sicling: and set both to true allows HG and visitors
[12:36]  Tiffany Sicling: but the reverse of that just won't work... if you don't allow visitors but allow HG, nobody will be able to HG there, so that is moot.
[12:37]  Tiffany Sicling: in 9348, I only saw allow hypergrid=true
[12:37]  Tiffany Sicling: so the other settings are not there yet, unless she dumped them into 9349 or 9350
[12:37]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: there is another flag for HG at the end of the ini file
[12:38]  kidd piko: last i knew, that one was not activated.. has it changed ?
[12:38]  kidd piko: activated now ?
[12:38]  Tiffany Sicling: what is that option ?
[12:38]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: hypergrid safemode
[12:38]  Tiffany Sicling: I remember seeing an option, but the remark said it wasn't active yet
[12:38]  Tiffany Sicling: ahh yes
[12:39]  kidd piko: right
[12:39]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: no active
[12:39]  Tiffany Sicling: would be nice to know what that is supposed to do
[12:39]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: not*
[12:39]  Tiffany Sicling: Safe Hypergrid
[12:40]  Tiffany Sicling: so for now, it seems that OSG is offlimits to HG visitors unless it's to an HG enabled region
[12:40]  kidd piko: right
[12:40]  Tiffany Sicling: and a HG visitor can TP to different HG enabled regions within the grid, that was tested and works.
[12:41]  Tiffany Sicling: for standalones with multiple regions, whatever is in the .ini file is for all regions
[12:41]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: yes
[12:41]  kidd piko: that changes our grid-to-grid Stargate travel model... but does not complete eliminate it
[12:42]  Tiffany Sicling: right
[12:42]  kidd piko: if i can explain briefly...
[12:42]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: but there is only one HG region for landing whuch can be changed by the lmap-link command in the console
[12:42]  Richardus Raymaker: never used console command for HG
[12:42]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: kicks keyboard
[12:43]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: *which and * maplink
[12:43]  Richardus Raymaker: hi kidd, bruce
[12:43]  kidd piko: orginally, we planned on providing non-HG regions with routing to get then to non-HG Regions on a different Grid
[12:43]  Tiffany Sicling: using console link commands does have a limit, and if a linked region dies, and restarts, it does not automatically relink up
[12:43]  kidd piko: what has changed is that with the new security, we will only be able to provide non-HG Regions with routing to HG Regions on other grids
[12:44]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: I was referring to link-mapping command in console
[12:44]  kidd piko: so our "reach" is just one leg shorter
[12:44]  Tiffany Sicling: ahh
[12:44]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: that is how you can set the region where you land using HG
[12:44]  Richardus Raymaker: but also better controllable where you land on other grid. instead of some bathroom :)
[12:45]  Tiffany Sicling: now one proposed plan was to make a HG enabled region on each grid, then make it where the user could go from there to anywhere within that grid (that they are allowed)
[12:45]  Tiffany Sicling: the new settings Diva has proposed will make that happen
[12:45]  Tiffany Sicling: AllowGuest=true AllowHyperlink=false
[12:45]  Tiffany Sicling: that will allow that region to accept HG visitors
[12:45]  Tiffany Sicling: but no HG to it
[12:46]  kidd piko: right
[12:46]  Tiffany Sicling: if grids can do it that way, then they have heightened security in that if they want to stop HG visitors at any time, they can just change that one region or shut it down in an emergency
[12:47]  Tiffany Sicling: instead of having lots of HG enabled regions scattered throughout
[12:47]  Tiffany Sicling: so there would be 2 ways in that grid... login, and HG to one region that is designated for it
[12:48]  Tiffany Sicling: this is just a suggestion, as the grid owner can do whatever they want
[12:48]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: sounds good to me
[12:48]  kidd piko: is there an ETA on the two new .ini settings ?
[12:49]  Tiffany Sicling: There are other configurations that we are thinking of for the future that may not only enhance security to any/all grids involved, but also accomodate for security breaches if/when they occur.
[12:49]  kidd piko: intersting
[12:50]  Tiffany Sicling: I am not sure when these new settings will take place, but I am hoping to see implementation for testing this week or next week
[12:50]  kidd piko: ok
[12:51]  Tiffany Sicling: a week ago, if a PN decided to wreck havok, he/she could have taken down several regions and/or grids
[12:51]  Tiffany Sicling: and corrupted databases
[12:51]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: should 'AllowGuests' not be 'AllowHGGuests', sorry I'm a bit confuesd with the terminology here
[12:51]  Tiffany Sicling: Bluce, your pants just showed up
[12:52]  Richardus Raymaker: whats PN ?
[12:52]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: oh am I gald rofl
[12:52]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: glad
[12:52]  Richardus Raymaker: i see some white clothes.
[12:52]  Tiffany Sicling: PN is abbreviated for "Patriotic Negras", a hacking/griefing group with the intent to take down SL.
[12:52]  Richardus Raymaker: Ugh.
[12:52]  Richardus Raymaker: hmm, i have read that name beffore
[12:53]  Tiffany Sicling: LL is aware of them, and they have a team that does nothing but chase them down and eliminate their logins/scripts
[12:53]  Tiffany Sicling: but it seems that PN has broken up a bit, and confusion has gotten ahold of them lately... .ego clashing perhaps
[12:54]  Tiffany Sicling: so we've been 'lucky' if you believe in luck
[12:54]  kidd piko: true
[12:54]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: well they will be replaced by some other group or groups of which we don't know anithing yet
[12:54]  Tiffany Sicling: there are other groups, and there are script kiddies out there too
[12:54]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: it's lie the Taliban
[12:55]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: like
[12:55]  Tiffany Sicling: because of that, security is an issue we all have to think about
[12:55]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: /mw ok I need to change keyboard
[12:55]  Tiffany Sicling: and with the sl-bot group, it seems that LL gave up on trying to keep them out, as they now sell it in-world (SL) to others.
[12:56]  Tiffany Sicling: which encourages copying other people's stuff
[12:56]  Richardus Raymaker: so creators can betetr start to sell to other grids then work against them. i guess if the dont sell people will copy
[12:56]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: One thing I don't like is that the non-HG regions are not shown in mni map but only in map
[12:56]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: is there something we could suggest to Diva about that
[12:57]  Tiffany Sicling: is that just OSGrid or any grid ?
[12:57]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: it's any grid as far as I could test it
[12:58]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: would it be possible to show the non-HG regions but put a coloured overlay over them in mini map ?
[12:58]  Tiffany Sicling: I was on Dradis (with HG turned on) and looked over at other regions, and could only see the HG enabled ones (visually with AV/client)
[12:58]  Tiffany Sicling: so it's not just map
[12:58]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: like in SL when a sim is down
[12:58]  Tiffany Sicling: yea, they look like half-connected regions
[12:59]  Tiffany Sicling: the new settings will fix that, but only when AllowGuest=true for that region
[13:00]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: ok here is an example: go to UC Irwinw in HG and you can not see WP in the mini map but you can see WP normally on the map
[13:00]  Tiffany Sicling: I am not sure, but that might be feature not completed
[13:01]  Tiffany Sicling: The issue I had with being in an HG region and looking across a region that is not HG, is that it's half-connected, and if you try to walk there, you skate... fortunately, I could bring up map and TP back to where I was
[13:02]  Tiffany Sicling: If we can document these, that is a good thing to bring to the table with Diva in seeing that something can be done about them
[13:02]  kidd piko: true true
[13:02]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: my point is that non-HG regions should be either shown or not shown on both, the map and the mini map otherwise it's just confusing
[13:02]  Tiffany Sicling: so on your travels, please take note of anything that is not functioning quite right or is awkward
[13:03]  Tiffany Sicling: I agree
[13:03]  Tiffany Sicling: if they are not allowed to HG, then don't show them visually, don't let the av go there (and don't skate them) and don't show them on either mini or regular map
[13:03]  Tiffany Sicling: HG visitors that is
[13:03]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: I agree with that Tiffany
[13:04]  Tiffany Sicling: that way the HG visitor has NO CLUE they even exist.
[13:04]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: right
[13:04]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: enhances security too that way
[13:04]  Tiffany Sicling: a griefer, might study that and try anything to go there and see what is there.... maybe even try to hack in the protocol
[13:04]  Tiffany Sicling: it would just invite things
[13:05]  Tiffany Sicling: right :)
[13:05]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: aye
[13:05]  Tiffany Sicling: I also see the same thing for a gate for HG visitors
[13:05]  Tiffany Sicling: if the sim will not allow the HG visitor to go there, then don't even show it as an option on the menu
[13:06]  kidd piko: right
[13:06]  Tiffany Sicling: but to be effective for that, there should be a way for the script to check somehow
[13:06]  Tiffany Sicling: before sending the visitor to orbit and then to a relog
[13:06]  Tiffany Sicling: or just plain saying 'don't exist'
[13:06]  kidd piko: there is actually a new option in the gate menu that will allow the Gates to determine what is an HG region and what is not
[13:07]  Tiffany Sicling: but that brings up another point...
[13:07]  Richardus Raymaker: is the next button in place to ?
[13:07]  Tiffany Sicling: when the new options are working... if a region is nonHG enabled yet is allowing visitors
[13:07]  kidd piko: would could use it to not display Regions that are unreachable by the Foriegn HG Guest
[13:07]  Tiffany Sicling: how do we test for that ?
[13:08]  Tiffany Sicling: so I think gate technology will be adjusting as we go along
[13:08]  kidd piko: very true
[13:08]  Tiffany Sicling: one option is to make different gates for different purposes, but who wants 10,000 gates on their region ?
[13:08]  kidd piko: for now, the owner of the Gate can specify whether the Region that it resides on is HG enabled or now
[13:08]  kidd piko: *not
[13:08]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: hmmm
[13:09]  kidd piko: the best way to do it would be for Diva to allow us access to the HG settings in the OpenSim.ini via osFunctions
[13:09]  Tiffany Sicling: I think we could have a gate for HG, what about the possibliity for a different gate for local traffic (with routing for HG)
[13:09]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: may i say something?
[13:09]  Tiffany Sicling: sure sure
[13:10]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: ive read all the options and all the needs and the faults ... but another idea
[13:10]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: what if a hg guest
[13:10]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: so a region owner can disable guest rezzing or play scripts
[13:11]  Richardus Raymaker: thats default in about-land
[13:11]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: or what ever even say no guest
[13:11]  Tiffany Sicling: with groups, that can be done if the land is deeded to the group, then only group members can do it if it's disabled for others
[13:11]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: but if i read all this tings it will be terror to hg ... cause when you hg to another grid ... and cant travel to ther regions
[13:12]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: its not really what traveling should be
[13:12]  Tiffany Sicling: oh but wait, have we tested all this with HG and non HG visitors to see what works and what does not ?
[13:12]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: i know the region options
[13:12]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: what i meen is hg guest
[13:12]  Tiffany Sicling: haven't
[13:12]  Tiffany Sicling: I havent
[13:13]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: just an option that hg guest can do things on the region or dont
[13:13]  Tiffany Sicling: hrm, good question
[13:13]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: I think Andreas has a point there ... but I afraid it is unavoidable to restrict traveling because of security reasons
[13:13]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: hey ... we do this rl and its a mess ...
[13:14]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: so why should we do it virtual too
[13:14]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: I agree with you Andreas
[13:14]  Tiffany Sicling: that brings up a question for me.... can a hg traveler be invited to a local group?
[13:14]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: the restrictions we cabn do here are much effective than rl
[13:14]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: groups ...
[13:14]  Tiffany Sicling: one part of me says no, but another says I just simply don't know
[13:15]  Tiffany Sicling: I think by being a part of opensim, that we can all help to shape this virtual world :)
[13:16]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: sure but we should not make so much restrictions cause of frea
[13:16]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: fear
[13:16]  Tiffany Sicling: and this will go where SL has never been before (it already is) :)
[13:16]  kidd piko: exactly Adnreas
[13:16]  Tiffany Sicling: yes
[13:16]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: it should be easy
[13:16]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: not complex
[13:16]  Tiffany Sicling: the fear factor could ruin it all too if we're not careful
[13:16]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: so we are back to agreements between grids
[13:17]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: everybody should use it ...
[13:17]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: rather that trying to 'regulate' everything bi opensim.ini flags
[13:17]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: i do backups all nights .... so i can do each hour .... if something happend i can reload
[13:17]  Tiffany Sicling: oh excellent Andreas :)
[13:18]  Tiffany Sicling: I enabled crash dumps on mine
[13:18]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: try this rl :)
[13:18]  kidd piko: :)
[13:18]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: well how about if you assets are stolen and pu in-world in another region/grid, what then ?
[13:18]  Tiffany Sicling: good question
[13:18]  eaglefx Binder is Online
[13:19]  Tiffany Sicling: the same exists for SL, a region owner has rights to anything on it
[13:19]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: back to fundamentals, agreement btw grids or opensim.ini flags
[13:19]  Tiffany Sicling: I have no clue how that will work, re agreements
[13:19]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: or both ?
[13:19]  eaglefx Binder: sorry guys but hotels aint what they used to be when it comes to wireless ;)
[13:19]  Tiffany Sicling: as a user can change email addresses faster than we all can change our underwear
[13:20]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: right and that is why I aske 'who is going to enforce the agreement'
[13:20]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: it's not like SL where LL can enforce its TOS
[13:21]  Tiffany Sicling: I share that question with you, Bruce
[13:21]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: so the only option we have in OS IMHU is to limit things by technolgical means
[13:21]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: IMHO*
[13:22]  Tiffany Sicling: how can you really enforce it that deep without some kind of personal data on individuals like ID cards or driver license info or other REAL info ?
[13:22]  kidd piko: i agree Bruce.. "Lock it down, don't lock them out"
[13:23]  Tiffany Sicling: IP address is one way, but so many are on dynamic IPs, that won't work
[13:23]  Tiffany Sicling: a token of some kind would, till they are spoofed
[13:23]  Richardus Raymaker: uuid avatar ?
[13:23]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: well the token is the stargat or any other teleport object
[13:24]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: for grid owner
[13:24]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: but i guess as grid owner you are personal for sure
[13:24]  Tiffany Sicling: sec, RL
[13:24]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: if you have to register befor you can use a teleporter object to HG to another region, then that would solve some of the problems
[13:25]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: well this could be easy
[13:25]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: we can do this with the webside
[13:25]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: and if you could only HG to regions using a teleporter object, then we get closer to enahnce security
[13:25]  Richardus Raymaker: it slows at least things down
[13:26]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: this is why this work on the networked stargate is so important
[13:26]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: stargates*
[13:27]  eaglefx Binder: Hallooo.......
[13:27]  eaglefx Binder: Oh i'm still on
[13:27]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: basically: you want to HG to a region ... you can ony do that using a teleporter object (e.g. Stargate) if you are registered
[13:28]  Tiffany Sicling: that could be a good point
[13:28]  Tiffany Sicling: there would have to be a command of some sort that does that
[13:28]  Tiffany Sicling: in which the stargate could use to facilitate the transport
[13:30]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: my opinion is when hg will be hard to do for the one thay want to use it ... it will be useless
[13:30]  Tiffany Sicling: I have an emergency here in RL, I gotta run, please continue this, I will leave my client here to log at least, thanks for all coming and hope to see you later this evening :)
[13:31]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: so the best middle between restictions and open is the best way
[13:31]  kidd piko: take care Tiffany
[13:31]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: yes take care
[13:31]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: all the best Tiff
[13:31]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: Andreas what would be you suggestions ?
[13:32]  kidd piko: if it's alright, i'd like to try to squeeze in an update on the Stargate development
[13:32]  kidd piko: make it short
[13:32]  kidd piko: i'll make it short
[13:32]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: each grid owner isbe responsible for his grid ... so he should make restrictions not the software
[13:32]  Richardus Raymaker: but the software need to have the options to make / chocie the restrictions
[13:33]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: ok understood Andreas, that would be the flags in the opensim.ini file then
[13:33]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: yes and this should be enough ... the only thing is i think we need a editor for opensim.ini
[13:34]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: its to hatd to scroll and look ... someting like i use for apache
[13:34]  Richardus Raymaker: uhmm, midnight commander / notepad works fine
[13:34]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: yes rechardus mine too
[13:34]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: so basically we discussed 3 options as follows: 1) Intergrid Agreement 2) HG by Teleporter Object only; and 3) HG controlled by flags in opensim.ini file
[13:34]  eaglefx Binder: editor for opensim?
[13:34]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: but it might be easyer with a frontend
[13:34]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: to just click on enable or diable
[13:35]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: and sorted ...
[13:35]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: so that any opensim user can easy change all options
[13:35]  eaglefx Binder: ah yes
[13:35]  eaglefx Binder: aka like a web configurator
[13:35]  Richardus Raymaker: yes, but what to use for a frontend thats Usable for more operating systems ?>
[13:35]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: yes like that
[13:35]  eaglefx Binder: good idea
[13:36]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: a webbased will be usable for all
[13:36]  eaglefx Binder: that opensim.ini is a pain
[13:36]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: it is
[13:36]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: even the regions xml
[13:36]  eaglefx Binder: reminds me of win31 ;)
[13:36]  Richardus Raymaker: ill like it, much betetr then windows registery
[13:36]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: i like text but hate to search one hour cause i missed a ","
[13:36]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: so we have option 4) website controlled HG ?
[13:36]  Richardus Raymaker: use search
[13:37]  kidd piko: aren't they implementing something on the grid that holds all of your .inii settings and eliminates the need for your .ini ??
[13:37]  Richardus Raymaker: but need to agree. its a pain.
[13:37]  eaglefx Binder: well okay sorry for my participation today but my work has really been a pain in the ass this week and still is :(())
[13:38]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: do we basically agree that we have 4 options ?
[13:38]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: dear eagle
[13:39]  kidd piko: i see 4 "options" , but it is really not our decision what/how to implement
[13:39]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: no not the 'implement' thing but the 'suggestion' thing would work if we all can agree to one of the 4 options
[13:40]  Richardus Raymaker: only local in is always the most secure.
[13:40]  Richardus Raymaker: ok, i now run head with mono 2.4
[13:41]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: :)
[13:41]  kidd piko: (dangerous living)
[13:41]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: hehehe .. I ave great respect for people who are using linix
[13:42]  eaglefx Binder: lol
[13:42]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: linux* grrr
[13:42]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: runs fine
[13:42]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: grrr for my spelling
[13:42]  eaglefx Binder: everybody uses Linux dont they? ;))
[13:42]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: hm
[13:42]  Richardus Raymaker: hehe, i hope. not happy with winodws
[13:42]  Richardus Raymaker: windows
[13:43]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: thinks should I say I'm happy with windows if only it would be free
[13:43]  eaglefx Binder: well every OS to what is it best for i guess ;)
[13:43]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: what now?
[13:43]  Andreas.Dna @next-reality.net:8002: we finished the meeting?
[13:43]  eaglefx Binder: looks like
[13:44]  eaglefx Binder: did anyone take the log?
[13:44]  Richardus Raymaker: no
[13:44]  Richardus Raymaker: no crash..
[13:44]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: no
[13:44]  Bruce.Patton @metaversesims.net:9000: I thought Tiffany did
[13:44]  eaglefx Binder: we need it for wiki?
[13:44]  Richardus Raymaker: she have the viewer open for the log, meeting is done ?

Meeting done....

Thank you all for a good meet.