Chat log from the meeting on 2020-03-17

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[11:06] Director.Virtualtowns @ just shared with Ubit.. I'm looking for a white label host provider.. for mental health support... critical need .. would appreciate any suggestions of reputable businesses
[11:07] Kayaker Magic: What does "white label" mean?
[11:07] Director.Virtualtowns @ the company doesn't list their name on the viewer or url
[11:08] Director.Virtualtowns @ it would be my business name for my clients
[11:08] Ubit Umarov: yeah some do offer those services
[11:08] Ubit Umarov: not sure if kitely does not show their brand always, but you can ask ( and negociate )
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: told about digiworld...
[11:09] Kayaker Magic: Hmm, I was about to suggest Kitey who has jumped through all sorts of privacy hoops to support schools. You might talk to them.
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: anyone remembers more doing full grid housing and managent ( in short notice? )
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: yeah in im i did mentioned digi and kitely already :)
[11:10] Director will check with Kitely -- their organizations feature will probably suit her.
[11:12] Gavin.Hird Hi Andrew
[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Sorry I'm late. Had some family stuff going on.
[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Now my cat is calling for me to have play time. :P
[11:13] Gavin.Hird You have to reset the cat's clock
[11:14] Kayaker Magic: Gavin: Modee here has been using RenderDynamicLOD on her viewer and getting complaints that it laggs other users on the same region. Is that possible?
[11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, the cat often starts meowing for me the moment I sit down at my computer.
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: (duuhh my stream is broken again)
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: yeah explain yr cat, summer time change
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: i almost forgot that again today
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: silly usa.. not following our rules :p
[11:15] Modee Parlez: europe 29th :(
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: RenderDynamicLOD ??
[11:17] Modee Parlez: Yes
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: don't remember that option :)
[11:17] Modee Parlez: you can set that in Advanced menu
[11:17] Modee Parlez: Here is the problem
[11:17] Gavin.Hird Damn colonials can't even get the time right, Ubit
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: but anything that increases the level of detail at a particular distance will force the download of higher rez textures and meshes
[11:18] Modee Parlez: Some others and me build vintage battle ships to battle with
[11:18] Modee Parlez: so with that setting we can import low mesh buty still see it good
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: Beq from firestorm did blog about no one should mess with viewers default LOD settings
[11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: If it is a setting available to the user you just know someone is going to mess with it.
[11:19] Modee Parlez: Well I didn't experience any down sides
[11:19] Gavin.Hird did it even make a difference if it was on or off?
[11:20] Modee Parlez: if i have to choose between that or a 300 prim ship! what will lag most ?
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: don't see it on fs
[11:20] Modee Parlez: go Advanced menu
[11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: I couldn't find it in FS either.
[11:21] Modee Parlez: show debug settings
[11:21] Modee Parlez: RenderDynamicLOD
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: ahh thats debug settings not menus :p
[11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: That's what I was about to say.
[11:21] Gavin.Hird it exist in firestorms pipeline.cpp
[11:21] Modee Parlez: then set to False
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: well i have by default true
[11:22] Modee Parlez: you will see how mesh pops up better
[11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: There are going to be entries in Debug settings that aren't generally meant to be changed by a user.
[11:22] Gavin.Hird and in floater_phototools.xml
[11:22] Gavin.Hird and settings.xml
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: not sure what that really does
[11:22] Director.Virtualtowns @ thank all of you for trying to help...
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: and sounds contrary to beq's ideas
[11:23] Modee Parlez: ?
[11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: Director, that's what these meetings are for.
[11:23] Modee Parlez: well there is little info about this but surely boosts up the mesh look
[11:24] Ubit Umarov is offline.
[11:24] Modee Parlez: but then again a lot are rusted in their old ways
[11:24] Ubit Umarov is online.
[11:24] Kayaker Magic: It sounds like Ubit suggests it will force uploading the high rez textures, so ther is a bandwidth hit, but won't that be a one time event?
[11:24] Gavin.Hird It does not see to do much at all except read and write the value
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: duhh pressed the wrong button
[11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:25] Modee Parlez: whispers to kayaker " you said these were wise men and can't even push the right button ? "
[11:26] Andrew Hellershanks chuckles
[11:26] Kayaker Magic: LOL, did I say they were WISE?
[11:26] Modee Parlez: yes street wise
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: :p
[11:26] Gavin.Hird it is used in a function updateCameraDistanceRegion
[11:27] Modee Parlez: btw I am Modee , Kayakers nightmare hahah
[11:27] Kayaker Magic: WHAT?
[11:28] Gavin.Hird and in computeLODDetail
[11:28] Gavin.Hird comment to the code is // We've got LOD in the profile, and in the twist. Use radius.
[11:28] Gavin.Hird don't know what that actually does
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: well about that optionm impact on region is only if that means on average more data to download
[11:28] Gavin.Hird FS does not use it at all
[11:28] Modee Parlez: Well when we see us i always have questions and then you loos eme on the second line of explanation :)
[11:28] Gavin.Hird llviewer does, and so does all the others more or less
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: rest is more stress on yr gpu
[11:29] Modee Parlez: translate for me please
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: you knw what lod is right?
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: level of detail..
[11:29] Modee Parlez: yes
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: there are 4 levels for mesh, not sure abotu textures
[11:30] Modee Parlez: ok
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: far things still visible use the lowest resolution one
[11:30] Gavin.Hird it might actually handle detial as you move the cam around in the scene
[11:30] Gavin.Hird independent of the avatar
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: so less things to get from regions ( mesh at least) and less things for gpu to render
[11:31] Gavin.Hird but apart from that it does not do anything magically to your mesh resolution
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: thats decided based on object aparent size ( from size and distance to camera )
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: duhhh ?=??
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: it changes the all mesh resolution
[11:32] Kayaker Magic: So it may make your GPU work harder, but does it lag the server?
[11:32] Gavin.Hird no
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: far things we never get with full resolution
[11:33] Gavin.Hird they get better resolution if you cam around the scene
[11:33] Modee Parlez: ok they lost me already
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: no kayaker.. well there are a few little side effects on http, but hope to iron those out more
[11:33] Kayaker Magic: So setting RenderDynamicLOD will not create lag for other users in the same region?
[11:33] Modee Parlez: is that the viewer LOD setting ?
[11:33] Gavin.Hird it is a viwer side setting, so it is local to your macine
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: it is LOD transistion settings
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: ie how the viewer decides what LOD to use
[11:34] Modee Parlez: Make notes Kayaker so you can explain later :)
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: for a particular camera distance and object size
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: oh yr mask is better than mine
[11:34] Gavin.Hird Modee, did you actually see any visible difference when the setting was turned on and off?
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: well i did ask Beq about that option.. but afk as usual :)
[11:35] Modee Parlez: sspeaking of size What is Object radius ?
[11:35] Modee Parlez: yes
[11:35] Gavin.Hird and what did you see?
[11:35] Modee Parlez: ok you see the handles on the beer taps
[11:36] Gavin.Hird sure
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: well one should not mess with those options much
[11:36] Modee Parlez: from where i sit they are broken
[11:36] Modee Parlez: but when i use the setting they look perfect
[11:36] Gavin.Hird probalby because your rendervolodfactor is set different
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: good mesh builders tune their LODs for the default viewers settings
[11:37] Gavin.Hird or object mesh detail in graphics prefs is set low or med
[11:37] Modee Parlez: my viewer LOD is 2
[11:37] Gavin.Hird explains it
[11:37] Kayaker Magic: The beer taps are "broken" for me also, rendered at a low LOD unless I zoom into them (I have not changed RenderDynamicLOD)
[11:37] Gavin.Hird set it to 4 and see the difference
[11:38] Modee Parlez: yes i see now but won't that slow me ?
[11:39] Gavin.Hird no
[11:39] Gavin.Hird that mesh probalby don't have proper LOD
[11:39] Gavin.Hird so it will send the high rez version anyway
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: well bottom line.. don't mess with viewer LODs settings defaults
[11:39] Modee Parlez: mmm ok well i must admit there is a big difference between open grids and sL
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: not really
[11:40] Gavin.Hird most mesh in Opensim is made without proper LOD, like maybe the majority of new mesh items in SL have
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: just because mesh uploads are free on most open grids, you get more junk
[11:40] Modee Parlez: in land impact there is
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: we don't use land impact metric, only show some numbers for now
[11:41] Selby.Evans I have seen the same LOD problem in SL
[11:41] Modee Parlez: Ok well I am a bit wiser now too
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: btw i did change the download cost estimation
[11:41] Kayaker Magic: Land impact calculation is different everywhere, it is just a suggestion.
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: no idea why viewers that those LOD's tunning
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: it is a silly thing
[11:42] Modee Parlez: So about that viewer DayTurn
[11:42] Gavin.Hird yes?
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: thats the same on all viewers
[11:43] Modee Parlez: I tried it for Discovery grid but it sort of froze me
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: damm beq is afk i don't remember her blog post abotu LODs
[11:43] Gavin.Hird I have never tested it there
[11:43] Gavin.Hird so IDK if it works¨
[11:44] Kayaker Magic: I could swear I tested Dayturn on Discovery and it just worked...
[11:44] Ubit Umarov:
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: found it
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: take a look to that
[11:44] Kayaker Magic: I'd use Dayturn more but I need the pre-processor feature in FS
[11:45] Gavin.Hird I know some people say it just refuse to work with a grid, but it is probalby more a Windows driver issue than anything else
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: it explains LOD in viewers context, and why ppl should not mess with that
[11:45] Modee Parlez: gonna bookmark that ty Ubit :)
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: she has more nice stuff there
[11:45] Gavin.Hird Ubit, stop spouting SL propaganda
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: duhhh thats SL and opensim
[11:45] Gavin.Hird Beq write that because she had to justify to her user base why she was foirced to comply with SL setting
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: No she did not
[11:46] Gavin.Hird LL would not allow LOD higher than 4 and FS was foced to comply
[11:46] Gavin.Hird yes she did
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: NO she did NOT
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: that is valid for sl and opensim
[11:46] Modee Parlez: are you gonna fight ? " sits back and watches "
[11:47] Gavin.Hird she did
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: and a result of several tradeoffs
[11:47] Kayaker Magic: Watching the fights is half the fun of the Dev meetings!
[11:47] Gavin.Hird I don't disagree that it's not a good reason to do so, but most content in Opensim is NOT turned for it
[11:47] Gavin.Hird :-))
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: thats opensim "creators" problem
[11:48] Gavin.Hird it is opensim users problem
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: that blog and others help explain the things
[11:48] Modee Parlez: should be everyones problem
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: not bc SL users are any better
[11:48] Gavin.Hird as their existing contetn - many years old, does not render properly any more
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: jsut they pay for uploads
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: and mistakes cost them a lot
[11:49] Gavin.Hird content* even
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: that is the only diference
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, I think I need to find a black and white striped jersey I can wear when I need to be referee  ;)
[11:49] Modee Parlez: well there is their beta grid
[11:49] Kayaker Magic: LOL
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: viewer mechaniscs, tech issues are the same
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: at least for now
[11:51] Gavin.Hird but the content between SL and opensim is not the same
[11:51] Kayaker Magic: Some of us are willing to allow the upload mesh dialog to decimate our mesh for lower LOD,
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: your still stuck on that?
[11:51] Gavin.Hird virtually no content at all in OS is uploaded with proper lods
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: yes.. we don't have good builders
[11:51] Gavin.Hird did you ever try to make a mesh with proper lods?
[11:52] Modee Parlez: well I try to upload as good as I can
[11:52] Kayaker Magic: I hear it is possible for creators to make special versions of their mesh for each LOL
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: that means nothing to the tech issue
[11:52] Kayaker Magic: I don't know how to do that, do you do that Modee?
[11:52] Gavin.Hird it means something to the user experience
[11:52] Modee Parlez: Kayaker will testify that my stuff is good :)
[11:52] Modee Parlez: won't you ?
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: and telling ppl to mess with viewer lods settings only makes that worse
[11:52] Gavin.Hird virtually any opensim scene looks like shit at LOD 2
[11:52] Modee Parlez: Pokes him
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: all will endup setting to to highest level to hide bad meshes
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: so.. do not mess with viewer LOD settings..
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: Use of decimate doesn't always do what you want without negatively impacting the model. It depends on how high the initial triangle count is vs. the max allowed.
[11:53] Modee Parlez: well that is why i am here to hear it from " specialists "
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: make proper meshes to match those defaults
[11:53] Gavin.Hird show the way Ubit
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: FS actually as nice tools to help on that
[11:54] Gavin.Hird make a proper demo mesh for the next meewting
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: that all viewers should add
[11:54] Gavin.Hird unless you have Maya it is hard
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: duhhh
[11:54] Modee Parlez: I use blender
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: a lot of mesh tools are good and usable
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: blender is excelent, once you learn to use it
[11:55] Gavin.Hird show they way ;-)
[11:55] Modee Parlez:
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: I've used Blender's decimate tool but that only gets me so far. There is also meshlab but I haven't tried it.
[11:55] Modee Parlez: here you can see some of my stuff
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: well FS now, on edit, has a tool to show lod details
[11:56] Gavin.Hird You really should not use decimate for lower level LOD + usually you have to make separate textures too
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: and you can play with that without the need to fly around to check them
[11:56] Modee Parlez: I do that already
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, I need decimate just to get the tri count down to near the max allowed value. :)
[11:57] Gavin.Hird :-))
[11:58] Gavin.Hird Did you have a question for me Kayaker?
[11:59] Kayaker Magic: I was breaking the ice for Modee, to ask her question.
[11:59] Gavin.Hird all right
[11:59] Gavin.Hird I guess I have to make an account on discovery and see how the viewer does
[11:59] Modee Parlez: Well sailors i need to go sadly :( Jugzzz all and ty again :)
[12:00] Kayaker Magic: This is the posted meeting end time....
[12:00] Modee Parlez: wavessssssssssssss
[12:00] Kayaker Magic: and beaches
[12:00] Gavin.Hird bye
[12:00] Kayaker Magic: bye!
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: bte that render oprtion should be off
[12:01] Gavin.Hird it defaults to false, so for most it is off
[12:01] Selby.Evans Bye everyone
[12:01] Gavin.Hird Bye Selby
[12:02] Gavin.Hird I doubt anyone had heard of it before today :_)
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: YACKK
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: NO
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: should be always ON
[12:02] Kayaker Magic: Gavin, I'll go try Dayturn on Discovery Grid. But I expect it to work there.
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: lol
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: tc, Modee. Thanks for coming.
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: I'd say bye to Selby but he is already gone.
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: as usual
[12:03] Gavin.Hird sorry, it is defaul on
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: yes and should always ne on
[12:04] Gavin.Hird then top talking about it as people might be tempted to turn it off :-))
[12:04] Gavin.Hird stop*
[12:04] Kayaker Magic: Hopefully they will read Beq's log. Good thing you found the link!
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: well i misread Beq :)
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll give Ubit the last word. I saw you have been busy on code changes related to Vivox. Where do things stand on voice?
[12:04] Gavin.Hird that link is old news
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: seems off killes the LOD engine totally
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: bad thing
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: old news but people keep messing with that
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: so... keep it on always... don't mess woth those LODs tunning settings
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: so content can be made and look similar on dif viewers etc
[12:07] Kayaker Magic: Got it. Now tell us about voice Ubit
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: wel voice is not good
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: vivox did refuse me any information
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: How do they expect people to use their voice system if they aren't providing updated information on using their API?
[12:09] Kayaker Magic: They are donating it to OpenSim, so may feel we don't deserve support?
[12:09] Gavin.Hird it is unsupported
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: thing is that we are on a obsolete vivox service
[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: I can understand them not supporting it but there should be basic info provided on how to use it.
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: one reason they gave me to deny access to current information was that.. it does not aplly for opensim ( or sl ??)
[12:10] Gavin.Hird unsupported means unsupported
[12:11] Gavin.Hird it is still a bit unclear to me what you actually try to acheive Ubit?
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: fix errors out current imp has
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: our..
[12:12] Gavin.Hird be more specific perhaps?
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: their answer to that was, you don'0t need to fix those errors, things work anyway
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: bahh
[12:12] Kayaker Magic: bahh!
[12:13] Gavin.Hird what errors did you try to fix?
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: and had the https problem
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: new fs does https, if i tell the port also
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: 6.0 seems to fail https
[12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: We can only hope this provides more incentive for the people working on EchoVoice to get it working soon.
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: ( daytunr also does https as fs 6.3 )
[12:14] Gavin.Hird we use the same lib versions
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: and there maybe a issue with payed accounts
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: mel told they need https... can't tell
[12:14] Gavin.Hird does anyone in ioensim actually have paid accounts?
[12:15] Gavin.Hird opensim*
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: and hard to use when viewers failt to connect
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: yes a few have
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: some since before the free accounts option
[12:15] Gavin.Hird ic
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: well a grid induced FS to use older slvoice version for opensim
[12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: We are at quarter past the hour. Time to wrap it up for this week unless anyone has any last comments.
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: while as dayturn shows, 4.10 works fine
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: at least on the free accounts
[12:17] Gavin.Hird FS and Dayturn use the same libs
[12:17] Gavin.Hird but there are big diffs in the viewer code
[12:18] Gavin.Hird FS use the coprocedure version of the voice code that LL use,
[12:18] Gavin.Hird I have basically left it untouched, so it use curl
[12:18] Kayaker Magic: Hmm, this chair doesn't have the new unsit code...
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: no fs does not use the same version here
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: they use 4.6
[12:19] Gavin.Hird oh, ok
[12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, it is a sign you need to entertain us. :)
[12:19] Kayaker Magic: this one does.
[12:19] Gavin.Hird because of Linux support?
[12:19] Ubit Umarov: im hacked my 6.3.6 to use 4.10
[12:19] Ubit Umarov: and works fine
[12:19] Kayaker Magic: I will help the meeting come to an end by leaving now.
[12:19] Kayaker Magic: Got things to do!
[12:19] Ubit Umarov: no it was because a jira filed by a 0.82. grid
[12:20] Kayaker Magic: Thanks all, GREAT meeting!
[12:20] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Kayaker. Thanks for being here.
[12:20] Gavin.Hird the thing is that the 4.10 version was nor released when FS built the last OS version
[12:20] Gavin.Hird so that's why they use 4.6
[12:20] Ubit Umarov: 6.3 uses 4.6 for opensim
[12:20] Ubit Umarov: as a special folder with it
[12:20] Ubit Umarov: osvoice
[12:20] Gavin.Hird that is waht I said
[12:21] Gavin.Hird what is the build date for the OS version?
[12:21] Gavin.Hird about March 2019?
[12:21] Ubit Umarov: bc they where told that opensim does not work with 4.10
[12:21] Ubit Umarov: of course now they have the macs issue
[12:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Are you two still going? I should do the official end of the meeting.
[12:21] Ubit Umarov: no 4.6 aproved for macs
[12:21] Gavin.Hird the 4.10 lib were released last summer
[12:22] Andrew Hellershanks: That's it for today. Thank you for coming. See you again next week.

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