Chat log from the meeting on 2015-06-30

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[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone
[11:03] Alicia.Raven hi andrew
[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon said he may not make it to todays meeting.
[11:04] Richardus.Raymaker then i think it get a silent meeting :O
[11:04] Richardus.Raymaker not have to say much right now
[11:05] Dahlia.Trimble kommt in Chat-Reichweite (19.82 m).
[11:05] Aine.Caoimhe kommt in Chat-Reichweite (6.09 m).
[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't have anything. I was going to work on a mod to the ossearch module but I haven't done all the changes I had planned.
[11:05] Dahlia.Trimble kommt in Chat-Reichweite (19.22 m).
[11:06] Dahlia.Trimble hi
[11:06] Aine.Caoimhe waves....sorry I'm late
[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Hey, Dahlia.
[11:06] Alicia.Raven hi dahlia, aine
[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, aine.
[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: It might be a short meeting today.
[11:06] Richardus.Raymaker hi aine dahlia
[11:07] Richardus.Raymaker and hi all
[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon said he was not at home and he wasn't sure if he would get back in time for todays meeting.
[11:07] Lucy.Afarensis kommt in Chat-Reichweite (19.51 m).
[11:07] Lucy.Afarensis kommt in Chat-Reichweite (19.91 m).
[11:08] Aine.Caoimhe has Justin given up working on Opensim now or is he simply too busy with other work for the time being?
[11:08] Lucy.Afarensis kommt in Chat-Reichweite (19.32 m).
[11:09] Lucy.Afarensis hello all
[11:09] Dahlia.Trimble I think he said he's pretty busy with his new job
[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Not so much given up on it as moved on to other things.
[11:09] Aine.Caoimhe nods
[11:10] Aine.Caoimhe that's too bad
[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: He might still contribute to OS now and then but it won't be with the frequency of updates from him as in the past.
[11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Apparently he has been working on OS stuff for about years.
[11:12] Aine.Caoimhe wonders if that means the larger outstanding larger bugs are unlikely to get any attention at all now
[11:12] Dahlia.Trimble slightly longer than I have I believe
[11:12] Dahlia.Trimble I started around 2008
[11:13] madmax huet kommt in Chat-Reichweite (19.14 m).
[11:13] Dahlia.Trimble is starting to feel old :(
[11:14] Richardus.Raymaker Your still shiny and noi rust dahlia
[11:14] Dahlia.Trimble lol
[11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Ah, looks like nebadon may be joining us after all.
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi kommt in Chat-Reichweite (13.59 m).
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: hello
[11:19] Dahlia.Trimble hi
[11:19] Nebs Metal Bar Stool v1.5 (w/sit & launch): Hello Nebadon Izumi, enjoy your sit..
[11:19] Richardus.Raymaker get your list with problems !, if you have one
[11:19] Alicia.Raven hi neb
[11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, nebadon
[11:20] Richardus.Raymaker hi neb
[11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: You made it after all.
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: sorry I am late, was out and took longer to get back than I expected
[11:20] Richardus.Raymaker blame the tourists nebadon
[11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: I did pass on the fact that you might not make it.
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: cool thanks
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: ya I actually thought it would take me longer to get back
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: so what did I miss :)
[11:21] Richardus.Raymaker the sound of silence
[11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: We haven't talked about much. There was a question about Justin change in jobs and mostly leaving work on OS.
[11:21] Lucy.Afarensis thatwas it
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: ah yes, Justin has been busy with new line of work
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: his time for opensimulator will remain very limited for a while
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: he won't completely disappear but he also wont have a lot of time for it either
[11:23] Sarah Kline kommt in Chat-Reichweite (12.52 m).
[11:23] Alicia.Raven without justin, im worried opensim development will slow to a crawl, he did so much
[11:23] Aine.Caoimhe has much the same concern
[11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: I thought about that too.
[11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Perhaps a slow walk rather than a crawl. There are a few others still working on OS on a regular basis.
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: well development usually comes in waves anyway
[11:24] Aine.Caoimhe there are people who chip in little bits and pieces and the occasional fix there and there, but he was the one typically to tackle any of the larger bugfixes
[11:24] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: Diva is still working hard on it and moses will be commiting a lot more patches over time
[11:25] Aine.Caoimhe so without anyone doing that, it seems like "status quo and live with it" will be the mantra for at least the foreseeable future
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: I don't think things will slow down too much
[11:25] Aine.Caoimhe sure, but if anything that tends to be "lets code shiny new stuff" rather than the ugly, boring work of fixing old bugs
[11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Melanie still drops in some code changes now and then
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: Misterblue said he has been busy lately but I think he will have some more time too hopefully
[11:25] Dahlia.Trimble hopefully community involvement will increase
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: Its pretty typical come begining of summer for things to slow down a lot
[11:26] Richardus.Raymaker yup
[11:26] Richardus.Raymaker but it feels for people mabye a bit slower then ormal
[11:26] Dahlia.Trimble there was a lot of community involvement before justing decided to do OpenSim full time
[11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: I mainly tackle small stuff. I don't feel I have the time to dig that deep in to the code base to handle some of the things that need fixing.
[11:27] Richardus.Raymaker better not andrew, not sure who is getting you out of that web :)
[11:27] Andrew Hellershanks: Even a one line fix of mine got rejected a while ago so it would be even harder for me to do something big.
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: brb have to relog
[11:27] Nebs Metal Bar Stool v1.5 (w/sit & launch): Goodbye..
[11:27] Aine.Caoimhe nods
[11:27] Alicia.Raven i will keep uploading patches when i can, i think i need to make time to dig deeper into the code myself and learn more
[11:28] Andrew Hellershanks: I've got too many other projects. I have at least a half dozen scripted gadgets of mine to finish
[11:28] Nebs Metal Bar Stool v1.5 (w/sit & launch): Hello Nebadon Izumi, enjoy your sit..
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi kommt in Chat-Reichweite (8.89 m).
[11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: [11:27 AM] Nebadon Izumi is Offline
[11:27 AM] Aine.Caoimhe nods
[11:27 AM] Alicia.Raven i will keep uploading patches when i can, i think i need to make time to dig deeper into the code myself and learn more
[11:28 AM] Nebadon Izumi is Online
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: doh cache cleared :) had to change computers
[11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: Do you need everything again, nebadon?
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: ya if anyone has patches that need to go in, feel free to let me know right away
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: Andrew, maybe just at the end you or someone can send me the whole transcript
[11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: ok
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: thanks
[11:32] Alicia.Raven neb, what is the max size u would use for a var region, 768x768?
[11:32] Lucy.Afarensis @ kommt in Chat-Reichweite (19.84 m).
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: ya personally I would try to stay to 1024 or under
[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: The suggestion has been nothing larger than an 8x8.
[11:32] Alicia.Raven im thinking about pushing it an extra 256
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: I prefer 768 myself
[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: 1024 would be 4x4.
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: its a nice balance between size and limiting yourself to how much content any 1 simulator gets
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: you just need to be sensible about it
[11:33] Lucy.Afarensis @ kommt in Chat-Reichweite (18.21 m).
[11:33] Aine.Caoimhe I think Justin's comment a while back as 4x4
[11:33] Dahlia.Trimble kommt in Chat-Reichweite (19.35 m).
[11:33] Aine.Caoimhe but it rather depends what you're putting in it
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: you can not expect that if you are running a 2048x2048 that you can fit 64 regions worth of content in it
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: if you are sensible with your design its ok to push a little larger as long as you keep the limits in mind
[11:33] Andrew Hellershanks: yea. 8x8 fully populated var would be pushing things. On the other hand, if it was going to stay mostly empty (like a large water area) it wouldn't be as bad.
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: that your simulator really cant hold anymore content than a stndard 256m2 region can
[11:34] Dahlia.Trimble kommt in Chat-Reichweite (12.16 m).
[11:34] Dahlia.Trimble sorry viewer crashed
[11:34] Alicia.Raven yea, we were wanting to have larger regions but more spreadout, i think alot of people are thinking in SL terms still and packing alot in a small space
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: so if you have good design then size of var doesnt mater as much
[11:34] Lucy.Afarensis @ so did mine
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: unfortunately a lot of people want to treat a 1024x1024m var the same as 16 independant regions
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: thats just a recipe for a bad time
[11:35] Aine.Caoimhe yeah
[11:35] Aine.Caoimhe like making a 4x4 residential strikes me as nuts
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: it depends
[11:35] Aine.Caoimhe but a 8x8 sailing sim would be fine
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: if you have lots of space in between each building then its fine
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: it really just depends on your goals
[11:35] Alicia.Raven i wish i could enable the new parcel layer sending by distance, but i had problems with parcel lines showing that didnt exist
[11:36] Lucy.Afarensis @ Do they have to be square?
[11:36] Dahlia.Trimble I dont think so
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: yes
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: vars?
[11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: Usage of the var will have the biggest impact on what you can do and how big you can make a var while keeping performance from suffering.
[11:36] Alicia.Raven thats a major limiting factor, if the whole regions parcel data is resent every time some one clicks the terrain
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: I thought they did need to be square at the moment
[11:36] Dahlia.Trimble I have non-square vars
[11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: AFAIK, vars have to be square.
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: ah interesting
[11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: Not sure why.
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: I thought they had to be square but to be honest I never tried
[11:37] Dahlia.Trimble nope
[11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: Dahlia, what are some sizes you have?
[11:37] Lucy.Afarensis @ rectangles?
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: they have to atleast be rectangle I think
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: cant do L shapes or donuts or anything
[11:37] Dahlia.Trimble mine are usually 1024 or smaller
[11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: Dahlia, I meant your non-square ones.
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: don't get me wrong I am all for people experimenting with insanely gigantic var regions
[11:38] Richardus.Raymaker my max is 3x3
[11:38] Dahlia.Trimble oh I think I have a 256x512 on osgrid
[11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe... a donut var. :)
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: as long as you keep your expectations in check
[11:38] Dahlia.Trimble "Pirate's Harbor" is 256x512
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: my Sisyphus region is set for 1536x1536
[11:38] Richardus.Raymaker did not know it can be reectangle
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: but it has maybe like 6000 prims total or something
[11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: I think the one main restriction is the the size has to be a multiple of 256m.
[11:38] Richardus.Raymaker amn around 17000 prims on some
[11:38] Dahlia.Trimble I dont know any reason why it couldn't be a rectanble
[11:39] Dahlia.Trimble *rectangle
[11:39] Aine.Caoimhe yeah...I think people tend to get kind of script/toy happy in residential type sims which is fine when there aren't 50 other residences on the same instance also doing that
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: I thought it was something because of the map
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: perhaps certain things dont work 100% in rectangle
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: but it still starts up ok
[11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: Not always the number of scripts but their run times that can kill a region.
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: ya but thats true even on normal regions Andrew
[11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: A single script can pull things down even on a regular region.
[11:39] Dahlia.Trimble map usually doesn't work for me on any size var, square or not
[11:39] Alicia.Raven i thought it was the same reason differnt sizes couldnt be put next to each other, viewer doesnt like it lol
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: brb afk a sec
[11:40] Aine.Caoimhe but the other day I was in a 4x4 sim that was filled with stores and assorted other stuff and the owner was building a full club to go there too, and I'm thinking to myself that if more than 4 people show up the region will crash and burn
[11:40] Richardus.Raymaker 1 simulator is running 2 3x3 var's around 17000 prims each i think
[11:40] Richardus.Raymaker but almost o scripts
[11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: Alicia, yea, that is what I heard. It was believed to cause a viewer some sort of indigestion if you put vars of different sizes next to each other.
[11:40] Dahlia.Trimble Aine, ya that sounds bad
[11:40] Aine.Caoimhe like trying to host 15 Wright Plazas on a sim and then add a club
[11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: Aine, the other day I had 18 people on a 2x2(?) var
[11:41] Richardus.Raymaker hehe, no 48 core is going to help
[11:41] Lucy.Afarensis @ I was at a sim that was standard size surronded by 4 big Vars
[11:41] Aine.Caoimhe it's all about content, Andriw
[11:41] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:42] Aine.Caoimhe if it's a relatively "light" 2x2 no problem
[11:42] Aine.Caoimhe will it with mesh and scripts and textures and nifty toys and it's going to be very unpleasant
[11:42] Aine.Caoimhe *fill
[11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm not sure of the prim count. It is being used to celebrate Canada Day and the US Independance Day holidays
[11:43] Dahlia.Trimble oh for an event/
[11:43] Dahlia.Trimble ?
[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: There are a number of vendor carts around and a stage in one corner for live performers.
[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: Dahlia, yea
[11:43] Dahlia.Trimble so they wont know it's bad until the event starts? 0.p
[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: Week long celebration
[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: already started.
[11:43] Aine.Caoimhe people tend not to think about how well their regions will scale to population
[11:44] Aine.Caoimhe they figure if they can be in it, building, it will be fine with 15 otherpeople sudddenly tp into it
[11:45] Lucy.Afarensis @ If one of them is on a slow connection it can crap things up
[11:45] Aine.Caoimhe which is one of the bugs, too, to not be able to disallow direct HGtp into a region
[11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: A lot of mesh objects in the region can affect it. This var has lots of mesh trees and the carts for vendors to use are also mesh.
[11:45] Aine.Caoimhe yes, a single latent viewer will kill the entire thing
[11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: It would be good to get that fixed in OS.
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: back
[11:45] Aine.Caoimhe yet another bug that looks like it won't be getting any attention since Justin is the one who was going to tackle that back in January
[11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: A single viewer with a bad connection should not ruin life for everyone else in the region.
[11:46] Aine.Caoimhe it shouldn't, but it does/can
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: I suspect the Moses team is going to be looking quite hard at some of that stuff
[11:46] Dahlia.Trimble hmm I thought you needed the "GridHypergrid" configuration to allow direct hypergrid tp? or did that break?
[11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: yeah
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: I know diva has interest in improving that stuff too
[11:46] Aine.Caoimhe it's broken, Dahlia
[11:46] Aine.Caoimhe I reported it in Mantis
[11:47] Aine.Caoimhe
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: did it ever work?
[11:47] Aine.Caoimhe I'm not 100% sure
[11:47] Lucy.Afarensis @ Hvaing neibor sims that are not on line can cause problems
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: to be honest I didnt think we were ever able to stop HG visitors
[11:47] Aine.Caoimhe but I assume it must have, Neb
[11:47] Aine.Caoimhe because you used it in OSCC
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: no we didnt
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: actually
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: ive never used that
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: OSCC its all group permissions
[11:48] Aine.Caoimhe then how did you force HG arrivals to only that one region?
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: and if your not in the righ group
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: seems like some network connections are holding things up until something times out and it moves on.
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: it deverts you to the default
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: thats why it appears to work like you think
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: but its actually not the same
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: OSCC was all groups control
[11:49] Aine.Caoimhe a HG visitor, even with the correct group, could still only arrive in "HG arrivals" and then tp from there, though.....or am I wrong?
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: I can say for sure though I personally have never tried "NoDirectLogin"
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: well for OSCC the landing zones were all group owned
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: and all HG visitors had thier own group
[11:50] Lance Fang: hello Ni
[11:50] Lance Fang: long time no see
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: so basically you would almost always be diverted to your proper landing zone
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: no matter what you did
[11:50] Aine.Caoimhe hm....okay
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: but that requires 100% group control everywhere
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: which is probaly not desirable
[11:50] Aine.Caoimhe not practical for a more general use, unfortunately
[11:50] Ni Lemon: Hello Lance
[11:50] Ni Lemon: good evening
[11:50] Dahlia.Trimble I thought you couldn't hg tp in if you did not use the "GridHypergrid.ini" config but I can't say I've tried it in a long time
[11:50] Aine.Caoimhe and that setting would be extremely good
[11:51] Lance Fang kommt in Chat-Reichweite (19.76 m).
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: yea ok I will ask Diva to take look
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: but honestly I would be surprised if it ever worked right for HG
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: there might be a way to limit HG visitors though by changing the simulator settings
[11:51] Aine.Caoimhe the goal would be for high traffic regions to be able to divert any direct logins to a "safe" arrival region instead
[11:51] Ni Lemon kommt in Chat-Reichweite (8.86 m).
[11:51] Aine.Caoimhe you can disallow them completely as a sim level
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: right you just want the intial teleport diverted?
[11:52] Aine.Caoimhe but it's an all-or-nothing thing
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: not all teleports right?
[11:52] Aine.Caoimhe right
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: thats tough one
[11:52] Ni Lemon: sorry for being late, good evening you all
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: im not sure its possible but we can find out
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: hello Ni, no worries, I was also late today :)
[11:52] Aine.Caoimhe I want the high impact "arriving in grid" hit to be handled by a region that is designed for it
[11:52] Aine.Caoimhe then from there they can tp
[11:52] Ni Lemon: pleasd to see you Nebs
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: yea it makes sense Aine, I am just not sure we have any capabilities as of right now to handle that
[11:53] Aine.Caoimhe because then when they enter the region it's just like a local TP
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: I will see what Diva thinks when she is back around
[11:53] Aine.Caoimhe and if it involves new code....
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: she is traveling at the moment
[11:53] Aine.Caoimhe it would also be very nice to be able to disallow local user login to a specific region too
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: yea I think that was the initial intent of that setting
[11:54] Aine.Caoimhe so when 30 people all crash at a party they can't log right back in to that sim and kill it again
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: not really HG
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: but maybe I am wrong
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: that said though, I know the goal of the MOSES team is to fix a lot of this stuff
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: its probably going to take some time though
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: to improve logins etc..
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: thats one of the reasons their first steps have been programming new ways to evaluate statistics more accurately
[11:56] Aine.Caoimhe nods
[11:56] Aine.Caoimhe I think they're tackling it in a very logical way
[11:56] Lucy Afarensis kommt in Chat-Reichweite (13.69 m).
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: they have very limited staff as well
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: i think they only have 3 or 4 people total
[11:56] Aine.Caoimhe they need metrics to be able to measure whether subsequent code tweaks are doing what they should be
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: so its just going to take some time
[11:57] Aine.Caoimhe the only thing that worries me about that (a little) is they have very specific end-use in mind
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: yes they do
[11:57] Alicia.Raven i was thinking the same aine
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: They are also still getting their dev structure in place and learning how to best work with the other OS developers.
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: but the fact remains if they dont sure up the foundation a lot
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: they will never reach their goal
[11:58] Aine.Caoimhe so they're likely not going to address issues that don't affect their needs, and are likely to introduce things that benefit their needs but might break/hurt things for other users
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: I think some of their early mistakes
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: were trying to make vast improvements to systems that you just can not improve without fixing lots of other things first
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: and for them it caused tons of set backs and failures
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: I think they are finally realizing that if they need to get to where they want to be, you must first fix the base functionality
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: cant just slap a new physics engine on and expect it to fix everything
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: like DSG for instance
[12:00] Dahlia.Trimble gotta run, bye all :)
[12:00] Alicia.Raven bye dahlia
[12:00] Aine.Caoimhe bye Dahlia
[12:00] Lucy Afarensis: bye
[12:00] Richardus.Raymaker bye
[12:00] Ni Lemon: Bye Dahlia
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: great concept, but plagued by issues in the core of opensim itself
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: bye, Dahlia
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: see you Dahlia
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: DSG was most definitely jumping the gun in terms of trying to improve performance if you ask me
[12:01] Simulator Version v0.5 ruft: OpenSim Dev        f4dfdbb: 2015-06-28 13:52:45 -0400 (Unix/Mono)
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: anyway, don't fret cause things are slow, it really has nothing to do with Justin being away
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: its just the time of year
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Once they have their development methodology in place things should pick up from their side.
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: things will pickup again, more work will get done
[12:03] Pebbles Flintstone: hello Lavender and Lance
[12:03] Pebbles Flintstone kommt in Chat-Reichweite (18.01 m).
[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: It always takes a while to get in to working on a new project.
[12:04] Aine.Caoimhe okies...well we can hope, I the meantime I guess learn to love the bugs we have
[12:04] Ni Lemon: it's good to built good foundations or it can be like a statue with cotton feet
[12:04] Aine.Caoimhe I'll be heading off then....have a good week everyone
[12:04] Lucy Afarensis: bye
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Aine, at least you know about them. Its the ones that you don't know about that can bite you.
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