Chat log from the meeting on 2010-10-05

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[18:01] Teleport completed from
[18:01] The region you have entered is running a different simulator version: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Post_Fixes) 76fd4cf: 2010-09-30 15:43:56 +0100 (Unix/Mono)
[18:01] Richardus Raymaker has entered chat range (13.9m)
[18:01] BlueWall Slade: Hello Richard
[18:01] BlueWall Slade: Hi Neb
[18:02] Nebadon Izumi: hello
[18:02] Richardus Raymaker: hi neb. if wright plaza where not down i could fly from my home to here. i want a chopper !
[18:02] Richardus Raymaker: ok, verhicles dont work good.
[18:03] Richardus Raymaker: but just good signb that i can fly to here
[18:04] Dave Coyle is Online
[18:05] Nebadon Izumi: scripts cant cross borders
[18:05] Nebadon Izumi: you cant drive vehicles over borders
[18:05] Justin Clark-Casey is Online
[18:05] Richardus Raymaker: yes. so for now i play for plane myself :)
[18:06] Nebadon Izumi: even worse, physics cant be passed over borders either
[18:06] Richardus Raymaker: hi dave
[18:06] Nebadon Izumi: quite alot to work out still for border crossing vehicles
[18:06] Nebadon Izumi: hello dave
[18:06] Dave Coyle: hi
[18:06] Richardus Raymaker: hi Justin
[18:06] Justin Clark-Casey: hi richardus, hi folks
[18:06] Nebadon Izumi: hey there justin
[18:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Hey, Justin
[18:06] Nebadon Izumi: heh i just did a sqlite migration from 0.6.9 to 0.7 using sqlite
[18:07] Nebadon Izumi: sorry using Wright Plaza
[18:07] Nebadon Izumi: man talk about excruciating
[18:07] Nebadon Izumi: sqlite is soooo horible
[18:07] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah
[18:07] Richardus Raymaker: dont tell me
[18:07] Justin Clark-Casey: well, it's horrible when one tries to shove vast amounts of data through it
[18:07] Justin Clark-Casey: it's very good for lots of other things
[18:07] Nebadon Izumi: on sim startup it sat for 6.5 mintutes looking like it was frozen
[18:07] Nebadon Izumi: i restarted sim several times thinking it was not working
[18:08] Nebadon Izumi: finally i just let it go
[18:08] Richardus Raymaker: i wish we would have 1 ini file for all database settings and conenction strings. makes life more easy
[18:08] Nebadon Izumi: it took 9 minutes and 14 seconds just to get to
[Startup Complete]
[18:08] Richardus Raymaker: excluding scripts ?
[18:08] Nebadon Izumi: yes excluding scripts
[18:08] Nebadon Izumi: scripts are still starting
[18:08] Justin Clark-Casey: But Wright Plaza isn't on sqlite, right? Or are you talking about a different instance?
[18:08] Nebadon Izumi: probably take about 30+ minutes for sim to startt
[18:08] Nebadon Izumi: im using it as a test
[18:08] Nebadon Izumi: testing all possibilites for migration issues to 0.7
[18:09] Nebadon Izumi: i figured go extreme
[18:09] Nebadon Izumi: make sure even the worst sims can be migrated
[18:09] Andrew Hellershanks: *all* of them? YOu going to try MSSQL too, nebadon? ;-)
[18:09] Nebadon Izumi: mssql doesnt work in 0.7 does it?
[18:09] Richardus Raymaker: lol
[18:09] Nebadon Izumi: i didnt think it did
[18:09] Justin Clark-Casey: it doesn't?
[18:09] Andrew Hellershanks: no idea. I don't use MSSQL.
[18:09] Nebadon Izumi: has anyone made it work?
[18:09] Nebadon Izumi: usually Strawberry does that
[18:10] Nebadon Izumi: and shes just getting on 0.6.9 recently
[18:10] Justin Clark-Casey: the RG people are still on 0.6.9 I should think
[18:10] Richardus Raymaker: mssql dort work under linxu sofar i know :p
[18:10] Justin Clark-Casey: that's hardly surprising :)
[18:10] BlueWall Slade: Reaction Grid haven't been on 0.6.9 too very long
[18:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, that would stop me from using it.
[18:10] Justin Clark-Casey: RG are very conservative - they won't upgrade now for a v long time
[18:10] Nebadon Izumi: ya im not sure but i dont think anyones done the MSSQL migration routine for 0.7 yet
[18:10] BlueWall Slade: and it seems they have become infactuated with the Unity3d stuff
[18:10] Nebadon Izumi: the only person i know who works on it is Strawberry
[18:10] Nebadon Izumi: and unfortuantly i havent used MSSQL in like 10 years
[18:11] Justin Clark-Casey: there were some other people once - but nothing for a long time
[18:11] Nebadon Izumi: i wouldnt even know how to set it up anymore
[18:11] Richardus Raymaker: hi penny
[18:11] Penny Lane: Hi Rich :-)
[18:11] Nebadon Izumi: anyway minus todays sqlite annoynances, the move to 0.7 testing is going well
[18:11] Nebadon Izumi: the MYSQL migration was perfect
[18:12] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: nice - you guys sorted out the problems with osprofile?
[18:12] Nebadon Izumi: Dave migrated all the users/inventory stuff to our 0.7 test grid
[18:12] Nebadon Izumi: from the main grid
[18:12] Nebadon Izumi: no
[18:12] Nebadon Izumi: osprofile dont work
[18:12] Andrew Hellershanks: oh? No more issues moving large amounts of stuff to 07? That will be good
[18:12] Nebadon Izumi: no ones touched it for 0.7 yet
[18:12] Richardus Raymaker: OAR's from 0.6.9 -> 0.7.x are no problem ?
[18:12] Nebadon Izumi: ya no prolem there Richardus
[18:12] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: so I presume that would block any actual migration?
[18:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, osprofile will be working soon.
[18:12] Nebadon Izumi: no
[18:12] Nebadon Izumi: we decded to move forward without profiles
[18:13] BlueWall Slade: for what it's worth - the things in OMW work that dont' work in the forge one
[18:13] Nebadon Izumi: it will have to get fixed after likely
[18:13] Richardus Raymaker: not sure what the best way is. i hope use the existing mysql works fine.
[18:13] Dave Coyle: we'll keep the profile data, but it won't work on day 1
[18:13] Nebadon Izumi: unless someone works it out in the next week or two
[18:13] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: k - command decision from the osgrid council? :)
[18:13] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm about to commit the change to fix profile picks. That leaves just classifieds. Once those are done, I'll forward port to 07
[18:13] Nebadon Izumi: great Andrew
[18:13] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: nice going
[18:13] Nebadon Izumi: anyting i can do to help test let me know
[18:13] Andrew Hellershanks: justin, ty
[18:13] Nebadon Izumi: if it works before we migrate we'll certainly do it asap
[18:13] Richardus Raymaker: not the basic profile data we have now ?
[18:13] Nebadon Izumi: but if not were still moving forward
[18:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, I'm working on the osprofile module to make all the tabs in the profile dialog of a viewer operational
[18:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, I have just classifieds left to work on.
[18:14] Nebadon Izumi: on the topic of Sqlite again justin
[18:14] Nebadon Izumi: am i correct to say mono 2.4.x uses legacy
[18:14] Nebadon Izumi: and 2.6.x uses new sqite driver?
[18:15] Richardus Raymaker: oh classifieds we can mis
[18:15] Nebadon Izumi: no one in opensim-dev could remember
[18:15] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[18:15] Justin Clark-Casey: 2.4 can use legacy or new. 2.6 can only use new
[18:15] Nebadon Izumi: ok 2.4 failed on new for me
[18:15] Nebadon Izumi: but when i went back to legacy it worked fine
[18:16] Justin Clark-Casey: odd - I'm using it fine with 2.4 on new
[18:16] Nebadon Izumi: just took 10 years
[18:16] Nebadon Izumi: let me pastebin the errors i got
[18:16] Nebadon Izumi: 1 sec
[18:16] Justin Clark-Casey: tbh, I'm interested in making Teravus' managed sqlite the main driver after 0.7.1
[18:16] Justin Clark-Casey: that would resolve our problems with mac as well, if everything works okay
[18:16] Nebadon Izumi:
[18:16] Nebadon Izumi: thats the error i got on new sqlite driver with 2.4 mono
[18:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, yeah, classifieds aren't too important. They more or less work at the moment. I'm seeing an exception being triggered so its mainly cleaning up that.
[18:17] Nebadon Izumi: doh
[18:17] Nebadon Izumi: sorry
[18:17] Nebadon Izumi: wrong pastebin
[18:17] Justin Clark-Casey: I was just going to say :)
[18:17] Nebadon Izumi:
[18:17] Nebadon Izumi: sorry about that
[18:17] Richardus Raymaker: as lonbg opensim dont crahs, no problem
[18:18] Nebadon Izumi: but on legacy this error did not occur
[18:18] Nebadon Izumi: not sure if it was fatal
[18:18] paulie Flomar is Offline
[18:18] Nebadon Izumi: but it was scary enough for me to stop it and start over on legacy driver
[18:18] paulie Flomar is Online
[18:19] Justin Clark-Casey: hmm, you didn't previously somehow create estate tables?
[18:19] Justin Clark-Casey: ahmmmmm
[18:20] Nebadon Izumi: no
[18:20] Nebadon Izumi: it was a brand new database i made last night on osgrid
[18:20] Nebadon Izumi: i loaded the Wright Plaza oar into a new sqlite based region
[18:20] Nebadon Izumi: in this grid
[18:20] Nebadon Izumi: then moved it to danger
[18:20] Justin Clark-Casey: the problem is that the legacy sqlite isn't being properly updated for the latest db changes
[18:21] Justin Clark-Casey: it's possible that the migrations had already been done before you stopped it which allow legacy to keep working
[18:21] Justin Clark-Casey: urf, this is a pita
[18:21] Nebadon Izumi: heh well apparantly the new driver isnt working either though
[18:21] Nebadon Izumi: nope
[18:21] Andrew Hellershanks: I was saying to nebadon that it didn't look right to me that all those create table statements were inside a transaction.
[18:21] Nebadon Izumi: i deleted that db
[18:21] Nebadon Izumi: and copied in the 0.6.9 db again
[18:21] Justin Clark-Casey: you're using master?
[18:21] Nebadon Izumi: yes
[18:22] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm quite surprised legacy is working at all there
[18:22] Nebadon Izumi: i didnt reuse the same OpenSim.db either after the initial migration failed
[18:22] Nebadon Izumi: i just logged in
[18:22] Nebadon Izumi: seems to be working
[18:22] Nebadon Izumi: but i dunno
[18:22] Nebadon Izumi: maybe somethings not right
[18:22] Nebadon Izumi: but ya i freakin hate sqlite
[18:22] Nebadon Izumi: id needs to just die
[18:22] Justin Clark-Casey: you might get some failures on things like media manipulation
[18:22] Nebadon Izumi: ah ok
[18:22] Nebadon Izumi: hmm
[18:23] Andrew Hellershanks: SQLite has its uses.
[18:23] Nebadon Izumi: well like i said the new driver seemed to fail too
[18:23] Nebadon Izumi: so i dunno
[18:23] Justin Clark-Casey: ngggff
[18:23] Richardus Raymaker: yes. but how to find a replacement for noobs. thats not sqlite ?
[18:23] Justin Clark-Casey: is mysql really that hard to set up, really? :)
[18:23] Nebadon Izumi: someone else on opensim-dev mentioned it failed for them also
[18:23] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[18:23] Nebadon Izumi: well some people do struggle
[18:23] Nebadon Izumi: installing mysql is easy
[18:23] Quilzie Xemax: It's not hard... it's just people stick to something if it works for them anyway
[18:24] Quilzie Xemax: Well, "works"
[18:24] Nebadon Izumi: setting up the user account is where people seem to flounder
[18:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, its not hard. You just have to get all the connection strings set up properly
[18:24] Justin Clark-Casey: the trouble is, then there are big problems when someone imports a big oar
[18:24] Nebadon Izumi: lol ya think
[18:24] Justin Clark-Casey: it takes an age to do that into sqlite, though part of it is big inefficiencies in the import process too
[18:24] Richardus Raymaker: ik know nebadon. under linux its easy. under winows its getting a bigger problem especialy 64bit did not work good with xammp or lamp
[18:24] Nebadon Izumi: it took 8.5 hours for the WP oar to load into the sqlite region
[18:24] Nebadon Izumi: thats absurd
[18:24] Nebadon Izumi: the db is 28mb
[18:25] Andrew Hellershanks: There are install packages for MySQL for Windows which make it fairly painless to setup
[18:25] Richardus Raymaker: and wright plaza only have 17K prims
[18:25] Justin Clark-Casey: yes
[18:25] Nebadon Izumi: ya Xampp is good
[18:25] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: so you tried the non-legacy adapter with no existing db whatsoever and that failed?
[18:26] Richardus Raymaker: apache did not worked with 64bit i think. long time ago
[18:26] BlueWall Slade: mysql is probably huge overkill for people that just want a private standaolone region
[18:26] Nebadon Izumi: no justin
[18:26] Nebadon Izumi: i only am testing migrations
[18:26] BlueWall Slade: or simple regions in grid
[18:26] Nebadon Izumi: from 0.6.9 to 0.7
[18:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, that shouldn't be an issue any more
[18:26] Nebadon Izumi: i could give a crap about anything else
[18:26] Richardus Raymaker: ok.
[18:26] Nebadon Izumi: i just wanted to make sure our migration goes smoothly
[18:26] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: could you try again but ignoring the errors this time? The ones I see are just for duplicate columns anyway
[18:27] Nebadon Izumi: ok sure can
[18:27] Justin Clark-Casey: it's possible that it might work anyway
[18:27] Nebadon Izumi: ok
[18:27] Nebadon Izumi: what should i test sepcificly you think?
[18:27] Nebadon Izumi: to make sure its actually working
[18:28] Justin Clark-Casey: obscure music on parcel media would be a gfood setting to try
[18:28] Justin Clark-Casey: ah, actually the simplest one would be media on a prim
[18:28] Nebadon Izumi: ok
[18:28] Nebadon Izumi: i'll start that now
[18:28] Justin Clark-Casey: this should fail to work with the legacy adapter
[18:29] Justin Clark-Casey: man, this is going to be a pita
[18:29] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya tell me about it
[18:29] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[18:29] Quilzie Xemax: Migrations are always joyous happy fun times
[18:29] Nebadon Izumi: sqlite was supposed to make things easier for everyone
[18:30] Nebadon Izumi: so far its uber fail in that regard
[18:30] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[18:30] Justin Clark-Casey: mmm, I wouldn't say so. sqlite just makes it easier to get an initial system up and running
[18:30] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[18:30] Justin Clark-Casey: but it comes back and bites you in the arse in various ways
[18:30] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[18:30] Nebadon Izumi: its certainly not made things easier for devs
[18:31] Justin Clark-Casey: well, we had a debate a while ago about stopping it being the default but there were big complaints about changing it
[18:31] Nebadon Izumi: but i think our database functionality in general needs a shit load of lovin
[18:31] Nebadon Izumi: it shouldnt take 2.5 hours to load Wright Plaza into mysql either
[18:31] Nebadon Izumi: or 8.5 hours into sqlite
[18:31] Nebadon Izumi: for a 28mb database
[18:31] Justin Clark-Casey: 2.5 to migrate or load an oar?
[18:31] Nebadon Izumi: to load oar
[18:31] Nebadon Izumi: the migrate took seconds
[18:31] Nebadon Izumi: in mysql
[18:32] Nebadon Izumi: but for some reason
[18:32] Nebadon Izumi: the datastore on OAR loading
[18:32] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, there are big inefficiencies there..... Loading could be vastly better though that means change the db adapters
[18:32] Nebadon Izumi: takes years
[18:32] Nebadon Izumi: its not the asset upload either
[18:32] Nebadon Izumi: asset upload goes fast
[18:32] Nebadon Izumi: its the write to database takes hours
[18:32] Nebadon Izumi: literally over 2 hours for 28mb of data
[18:32] Nebadon Izumi: in MySQL
[18:33] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, it's done in a very naive way
[18:33] Justin Clark-Casey: it has to be improved
[18:33] Penny Lane: Pen and ink?
[18:33] Nebadon Izumi: heh
[18:33] BlueWall Slade: chisle and stone?
[18:33] Richardus Raymaker: typewriter penny
[18:33] Justin Clark-Casey: one at a time :)
[18:33] Penny Lane: BlueWall -- ah, strong persistence, good thinking :-)
[18:34] BlueWall Slade: assets: you can checkin any time you like. But, you can't ever leave.
[18:35] Justin Clark-Casey: I thin kthe chief problem is that once the oar is loaded, storage of the objects is done in the usual opensim way (i.e. one at t eim)
[18:35] Justin Clark-Casey: but if you've got thousands of objects this takes an absolute age
[18:35] Nebadon Izumi: ok region is migrating on new sqlite driver
[18:35] Nebadon Izumi: we'll know in about 10 minutes
[18:35] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[18:36] Nebadon Izumi: actually it wont be safe to login for about 30 minutes
[18:36] Justin Clark-Casey: migration is just a db operation - it doesn't flow through the opensim code itself....
[18:36] Andrew Hellershanks: If you just loaded an oar, why does it still do the saving prims to the db. It should already have them there from the load
[18:36] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats what i dont get it must be doing it serialy
[18:36] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: the load just places them in the region. Saving to the db is carried out by the usual opensim persistence process
[18:36] Nebadon Izumi: 1 prim at a time
[18:37] Justin Clark-Casey: it's the same mechanism as when you just create a prim in-world - it doesn't actually get stored to the database until some time afterwards
[18:37] Justin Clark-Casey: it isn't going to be an easy thing to address...
[18:37] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, oh. That explains the comment yesterday about having to wait for the process (or backup command) to complete before doing a region shutdown
[18:38] Nebadon Izumi: right
[18:38] Justin Clark-Casey: yes
[18:38] Nebadon Izumi: when you load an oar it will appear to be done in minutes
[18:38] Nebadon Izumi: but it can literally take hours for the datastore to complete
[18:38] Nebadon Izumi: and there is no indicator its actually happening
[18:38] Nebadon Izumi: or that its done
[18:38] BlueWall Slade: what if you force it on the command line?
[18:38] Nebadon Izumi: other than peer into the database
[18:38] Nebadon Izumi: if you force it it will lock up the console until its done
[18:38] Andrew Hellershanks: yeah. When I was loading up 9 oars, I was seeings lots of messages on the console about saving to db
[18:38] Nebadon Izumi: but it could also feel like its not working and just frozen
[18:39] Nebadon Izumi: you really need to know ahead of time what to expect
[18:39] Nebadon Izumi: or your going to kill the sim likely
[18:39] Nebadon Izumi: in sqlite though your pretty screwed
[18:39] Nebadon Izumi: you cant open a db that opensim is using and check tables
[18:39] Justin Clark-Casey: persistence could be forced at the time of save, which at least would allow a warning to immediately preceed it
[18:39] Justin Clark-Casey: I mean, at the time of load
[18:39] Richardus Raymaker: yup. mysql delete database and start over. if you only have 1 region
[18:40] Richardus Raymaker: any other news about 0.7.x ?
[18:40] Nebadon Izumi: but ya lots of room for improvement to databases
[18:41] Nebadon Izumi: right now im more worried about getting to 0.7 though
[18:41] Richardus Raymaker: still get some earplugs in range :)
[18:41] Nebadon Izumi: as long as these errors are not fatal thats the important thing
[18:41] Dave Coyle: sqlite migrations is pretty much it for things holding osgrid back from 0.7
[18:42] Nebadon Izumi: what threw me totally off kilter was it takes literally 9+ minutes to get to startup complete
[18:42] Richardus Raymaker: as long people make oar's it can go fine. people that try to upgrade oar. gives noise.
[18:42] Nebadon Izumi: it looked like the sim was frozen and not doing anything
[18:42] Dave Coyle: as we said, profiles is going to have to wait until right after the switch
[18:42] Nebadon Izumi: now i know it just takes forever i can move forward
[18:42] Nebadon Izumi: ya hopefully sqlite really isnt even a problem
[18:42] Justin Clark-Casey: well, upgrading db's directly isn't so bad. Loading oars is a problem though this isn't a new one
[18:42] Richardus Raymaker: better put that as warning (h1) on the migration page
[18:42] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[18:43] Nebadon Izumi: as long as it finishes
[18:43] Nebadon Izumi: i really dont care if it takes 10 hours
[18:43] Nebadon Izumi: as long as it eventually does finish
[18:43] Richardus Raymaker: so someone with sqlite and many regions is busy for 1 week.
[18:43] Nebadon Izumi: it certainly would be nice if it took 15 minutes instead of 8 hours
[18:43] Nebadon Izumi: but we can worry about that later
[18:43] Richardus Raymaker: some progress message wopuld be fine.
[18:43] Dave Coyle: richardus: someone with many regions probably isn't using sqlite
[18:43] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya you would think
[18:44] Nebadon Izumi: but i suspect a large portion of this grid is using sqlite
[18:44] Richardus Raymaker: i know someone the do and did. i hope she switched to mysql
[18:44] Nebadon Izumi: i know like Greybeard is
[18:44] Nebadon Izumi: he seems unable to get mysql working
[18:44] Nebadon Izumi: even with help
[18:44] Richardus Raymaker: windows nebadon ?
[18:44] Nebadon Izumi: hes tried to switch but has a very hard time
[18:44] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[18:44] Richardus Raymaker: as long xampp works and apace and phpmyadmin it must work
[18:44] Nebadon Izumi: someone who is not very computer savy to begin with i can see mysql being a struggle for sure
[18:45] Nebadon Izumi: well his problem
[18:45] Nebadon Izumi whispers: was he is leasing a Windows VPS
[18:45] Nebadon Izumi: that had IIS and MSSQL
[18:45] Nebadon Izumi: when he tried to install XAMPP he got all kinds of port conflicts
[18:45] Nebadon Izumi: and it ruined his day
[18:45] Richardus Raymaker: that makes things harder
[18:45] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: how many region service providers are there on osgrid?
[18:46] Nebadon Izumi: unique servers?
[18:46] Nebadon Izumi:
[18:46] Nebadon Izumi: this says we have about 900 servers connected
[18:46] Andrew Hellershanks: He should have been able to shutdown IIS and MSSQL services somehow
[18:46] Nebadon Izumi: but its probably more
[18:46] Nebadon Izumi: i think this stat uses Unique IP's
[18:47] Nebadon Izumi: not neccesarily unique servers
[18:47] Nebadon Izumi: so somewhere between 900-1500 is probably a good estimate
[18:47] Dahlia Trimble: hi :)
[18:47] Nebadon Izumi: hello Dahlia
[18:47] Richardus Raymaker: hi dahlia
[18:47] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: I mean, ppl providing regions for other ppl
[18:47] Dave Coyle: no way to know
[18:47] Nebadon Izumi: oh
[18:47] Nebadon Izumi: ya hard to say
[18:47] Nebadon Izumi: if i had to guess
[18:47] Richardus Raymaker: the drop half jun ? where the grid cleanup ?
[18:47] Nebadon Izumi: maybe 1 dozen
[18:47] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm just curious as to how many individuals are going to be attempting this migration
[18:48] Andrew Hellershanks: bit sudden drop in servers about latter part of June
[18:48] Nebadon Izumi: a lot
[18:48] Dave Coyle: hundreds
[18:48] Nebadon Izumi: i thin its probably safe to say 90% plus of the grid
[18:48] Richardus Raymaker: hmm, im for a while busy with the migration 2 servers + 1 from someone else
[18:48] Nebadon Izumi: wil be migrating their own servers
[18:48] Justin Clark-Casey: gonna be fun then
[18:48] Nebadon Izumi: oh ya
[18:48] Nebadon Izumi: ive been having nightmares
[18:48] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[18:48] Justin Clark-Casey: you're going to head straight to a version off master rather than something like
[18:49] Dave Coyle: that's why we get paid the big bucks! oh, wait....
[18:49] Richardus Raymaker: and the worse thing. you need to wait with testing till end of the week right ?
[18:49] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[18:49] Justin Clark-Casey: dave: lol
[18:49] Nebadon Izumi: ya i think so Justin
[18:49] Nebadon Izumi: were gonna head right for 0.7.1 (dev)
[18:49] Justin Clark-Casey: seems riskier
[18:49] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll be migrating to 07 by the end of the year (maybe). I have a few things to do before I'll be ready to migrate
[18:49] Friendly Harbour: i know i shut down some test servers b4 the summer ... only 2-3 ip's but 10+ regions .. think i will ready the wiki carefully b4 starting them up again if there are mayor changes coming
[18:49] Friendly Harbour: read*
[18:49] Nebadon Izumi: mysql migrated fine on the new mysql driver
[18:49] Nebadon Izumi: Wright Plaza that is
[18:49] Andrew Hellershanks: God to know
[18:49] Dahlia Trimble: 0.7.1 for osgrid?
[18:49] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: that's a good point - the mysql driver has random failures when migrating
[18:49] Andrew Hellershanks: achh.. Good to know
[18:50] Nebadon Izumi: all of our current testing is on 0.7.1
[18:50] Justin Clark-Casey: melanie refuses to allow the mysql driver to be reverted in master.
[18:50] Dave Coyle: dahlia: yes
[18:50] Justin Clark-Casey: the one in is the old one that works ok
[18:50] Nebadon Izumi: honestly the stable releases are no more stable than master
[18:50] Dahlia Trimble: nice. when?
[18:50] Richardus Raymaker: im already useing 0.7 as standalone hypergrid. so know some things
[18:50] Nebadon Izumi: i find the releases to be less stable
[18:50] Nebadon Izumi: in most cases
[18:50] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[18:50] Friendly Harbour: lol
[18:50] Andrew Hellershanks: :-)
[18:50] Nebadon Izumi: i never run them
[18:50] Dave Coyle: dahlia: don't have a date yet. just have to make sure sqlite migrations are working.
[18:50] paulie Flomar is Online
[18:50] Richardus Raymaker: how's the scripting problem nebadon. last week it did not work well
[18:50] Dave Coyle: hopefully this month
[18:51] Nebadon Izumi: no scripting problems i am aware of Richardus
[18:51] Nebadon Izumi: can you be more specific?
[18:51] Richardus Raymaker: ok. last week things did not work for you
[18:51] Dahlia Trimble: what about services migration? will there be a period when both newer and older versions will still work?
[18:51] Nebadon Izumi: hmm ya right now i think were good
[18:51] Nebadon Izumi: on master
[18:51] Richardus Raymaker: 0.7.1 version head
[18:51] Dave Coyle: dahlia: no
[18:51] Lalinda Perhaps is Offline
[18:51] Dave Coyle: it'll be switched all at once
[18:52] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: tbh, part of the reason why we have these difficulties is becuase you guys have been on 0.6.9 for so long :)
[18:52] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya
[18:52] Nebadon Izumi: blame the modules
[18:52] Nebadon Izumi: not me
[18:52] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[18:52] Andrew Hellershanks: :-)
[18:52] Richardus Raymaker: i hope the download serve ris ready for the big run.
[18:52] Justin Clark-Casey: if you'd been updating ppl would have faced the prressure to make master work properly :)
[18:52] Nebadon Izumi: master works pretty good now
[18:52] Dave Coyle: that's why we don't want to wait anymore
[18:52] Nebadon Izumi: the problem was no modules worked
[18:52] Nebadon Izumi: it wasnt we didnt want to upgrade
[18:52] Nebadon Izumi: we just couldnt
[18:53] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I know - that was partly why I fixed the osgroups stuff
[18:53] Nebadon Izumi: i wish we could have updated months ago
[18:53] Nebadon Izumi: its one thing for a few modules to not work
[18:53] Nebadon Izumi: but when non did that would have just upset everyone
[18:53] Richardus Raymaker: somewhere you need to upgarde. or you can delay it until V1.0
[18:53] Nebadon Izumi: and tehre is not enough people to fix them fast enough to calm everyone down
[18:53] Nebadon Izumi: but ya were close
[18:53] Justin Clark-Casey: I think it shows there isn't that much manpower about - those modules languishged for ages
[18:53] Nebadon Izumi: no turning back now
[18:53] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[18:53] Justin Clark-Casey: nice to hear - but don't take too many risks, please :)
[18:54] Nebadon Izumi: well osgrid has always run master
[18:54] Andrew Hellershanks: I would have looked at the groups one sooner but I was in the middle of ossearch at the time
[18:54] Nebadon Izumi: we have never ever ran so called "stable" releases
[18:54] Nebadon Izumi: like i said i have never found the opensim releases to work better than master
[18:54] Dahlia Trimble: I have personal modules on some of my regions that (fortunately) I've just ported to post 0.7. There may be other people who arent quite as ready :(
[18:54] Nebadon Izumi: they are usually missing important things we need
[18:55] Richardus Raymaker: the only reason i use osgrid realease. is to avpoid the git troubles. until i made my own manual
[18:55] Andrew Hellershanks: The one difference with the releases, all the issues and bugs are known
[18:55] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: I'm surprised - I spent ages on 0.6.9 :p
[18:55] Justin Clark-Casey: but I know what you mean, it's all very alpha
[18:55] Nebadon Izumi: ya the releases tend to go weeks without hot fixes we need
[18:55] Nebadon Izumi: and i dont want to maintain our own branch
[18:56] Nebadon Izumi: i already dont have enough time as it is
[18:56] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[18:56] Justin Clark-Casey: heh
[18:56] Nebadon Izumi: sometimes we get things like really nasty security holes
[18:56] Nebadon Izumi: that are only available on master
[18:56] Nebadon Izumi: they need to go out to our users immediatly
[18:57] Nebadon Izumi: the fix is only available in master that is
[18:57] Nebadon Izumi: and even though we stayed on 0.6.9 forever
[18:58] Nebadon Izumi: i really pestered the hell out of you guys to back port stuff to post-fixes
[18:58] Nebadon Izumi: melanie probably said 50 times no more patches
[18:58] Nebadon Izumi: only for me to pester her into more
[18:58] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[18:58] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[18:58] Friendly Harbour: :)
[18:58] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Post_Fixes) 76fd4cf: 2010-09-30 15:43:56 +0100 (Unix/Mono)
[18:58] Richardus Raymaker: i wish the disapeared sims after restart are fixt. crossing fingers
[18:58] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, there's not enough of us to maintain these things properly
[18:59] Nebadon Izumi: ya i think once we move to 0.7 though alot of others will too
[18:59] Justin Clark-Casey: I have to confess, I myself was only able to update 0.6.9 because I needed it for a project
[18:59] Nebadon Izumi: and that should make things easier for everyone
[18:59] Andrew Hellershanks: Once I get done with osprofile stuff, the next thing I want to do is to start looking at some of the prim linking issues.
[18:59] Justin Clark-Casey: I think thre might be a lot of problems, but it has to be tackled sometime
[18:59] Nebadon Izumi: Reacton grid tends to wait for OSgrid
[18:59] Nebadon Izumi: as do other grids
[18:59] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: you're a brave man, but that would be really cool
[18:59] Nebadon Izumi: 3rd Rock grid too
[19:00] Nebadon Izumi: they generally wait for us to prove a version is worthy
[19:00] Dahlia Trimble: ReactionGrid is the only grid I'm aware of that runs the core distribution
[19:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, yeah. I suppose I am. I'm just going after things I want to see working properly and I figure they are isolated enough that I have a change to fix them.
[19:00] Nebadon Izumi: 3rd rock does too
[19:00] Andrew Hellershanks: change->chance
[19:00] Dahlia Trimble: besides OSGrid of course ;)
[19:00] Nebadon Izumi: Science sim does for their regions
[19:00] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: If you want any code guidance pls don't hestitate to ask.
[19:00] Nebadon Izumi: but their backend is simiangrid
[19:00] Justin Clark-Casey: there are some unit tests for linking which might help get a handle on the code
[19:01] Dahlia Trimble: I thought ScienceSim had their own fork
[19:01] Nebadon Izumi: when i spoke to Mic last
[19:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Particles are another thing I'd like to see working properly but I think that might be more difficult and is not as high a priority right now
[19:01] Nebadon Izumi: he said Sciencesim has like 6 or so patches that are not in core
[19:01] Nebadon Izumi: they used to Dahlia
[19:01] Justin Clark-Casey: no, sciencesim are now almost completely running stock
[19:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, I haven't hesitated so far
[19:01] Nebadon Izumi: but since they moved to simiangrid they are on stock opensim regions now
[19:01] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: cool :)
[19:02] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I need to get back to work. You're thinking of doing the migration within a month?
[19:02] Richardus Raymaker: bye justin
[19:02] Andrew Hellershanks: cya, justin
[19:02] Dave Coyle: yes
[19:02] Nebadon Izumi: ok justin, thanks for coming
[19:02] Dahlia Trimble: bye JCC :)
[19:03] Justin Clark-Casey: that is really good to hear - I think it would benefit dvelopment a lot. Good luck!
[19:03] Justin Clark-Casey waves
[19:03] paulie Flomar: :)
[19:03] Dave Coyle: bye
[19:03] Nebadon Izumi: so anyone else have any questions before we wrap things up?
[19:03] Justin Clark-Casey is Offline
[19:04] paulie Flomar: doh. I missed the boat.
[19:04] Andrew Hellershanks: One things about profiles
[19:04] Richardus Raymaker: just on time, to jump on .
[19:04] paulie Flomar: Just the question of OSGRid migration. Sorry I missed it.
[19:04] Nebadon Izumi: ah were close Paulie
[19:05] Nebadon Izumi: i'll send you notecard with the log of meeting
[19:05] Nebadon Izumi: 1 sec
[19:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Some info is maintained in core tables in 069. If moving to osprofiles, some of that data needs to be copied to the profile module tables. I don't have a procedure or set of scripts to do that yet
[19:05] paulie Flomar: dont put yourself out .thx. :)
[19:05] Notecard saved
[19:05] paulie Flomar accepted your inventory offer.
[19:05] Nebadon Izumi: there you go
[19:05] Dave Coyle: we're not using any of opensim's migrations for the backend data
[19:05] Richardus Raymaker: Do you move the servers to new place before migration. i thionk its bgood to have at least 2 weeks between both
[19:05] paulie Flomar: got it. thx. :)
[19:06] Dave Coyle: so one more script would be no big deal. :)
[19:06] Dave Coyle: richardus: no machines are moving, though we are using a new one
[19:06] Dahlia Trimble: guess Im out of here too, bye all :)
[19:06] Nebadon Izumi: ya will shift to a new server in Texas
[19:06] Richardus Raymaker: ok. the cool ones :)
[19:06] Dave Coyle: bye dahlia
[19:06] BlueWall Slade: see you guys
[19:06] Nebadon Izumi: kk see ya Dahlia, thanks for swinging by :)
[19:06] paulie Flomar: bye, d.
[19:06] Nebadon Izumi: see ya Bluewall
[19:06] Andrew Hellershanks: yeah, I'm out of here too. I want to get this change log done and commit some changes
[19:07] Richardus Raymaker: still good to have some time between both to fix problems
[19:07] Richardus Raymaker: bye bl;uewall
[19:07] Nebadon Izumi: later Andrew
[19:07] Dave Coyle: richardus: no, we need a clean break
[19:07] Andrew Hellershanks: tty on IRC. See everyone next week
[19:07] paulie Flomar: I'ma pop back to Cameo. My Mate is building it out. :)
[19:07] Nebadon Izumi: nice Paulie
[19:07] paulie Flomar: :)
[19:08] Nebadon Izumi: we are doing texting prior to the actual grid shift
[19:08] Nebadon Izumi: i dont want anyone to think were going to just migrate withotu testing
[19:08] Nebadon Izumi: its just not going to be available after the big switch over
[19:08] Richardus Raymaker: ok
[19:08] Nebadon Izumi: the old grid that is
[19:08] Nebadon Izumi: texting=testing*
[19:09] Richardus Raymaker: so its possible with migration we have noth servers available 0.6.9 and 0.7.x ?
[19:09] Nebadon Izumi: no
[19:09] Dave Coyle: no
[19:09] Richardus Raymaker: noth = both
[19:09] Richardus Raymaker: auuw. thats so painbfull point
[19:09] Nebadon Izumi: once we go live with 0.7 thats it
[19:09] Nebadon Izumi: well were working it out though
[19:09] Richardus Raymaker: you migrate the region location to ?
[19:10] Nebadon Izumi: by the time we go live i pretty much will have tested all migration scenarios
[19:10] Nebadon Izumi: yes
[19:10] Nebadon Izumi: it will just be a matter of downing your region
[19:10] Nebadon Izumi: updating softare
[19:10] Nebadon Izumi: updating ini files
[19:10] Richardus Raymaker: crossing fingers
[19:10] Nebadon Izumi: restart your sim
[19:10] Nebadon Izumi: no one should loose locations
[19:10] Nebadon Izumi: we'll migrate the region table as well
[19:10] Nebadon Izumi: so if you cant migrate that day
[19:10] Nebadon Izumi: you will have time
[19:10] Nebadon Izumi: your sims just wont be accessible
[19:11] Richardus Raymaker: the migration im not worried about. its more the pile of config files x 23
[19:11] Nebadon Izumi: but your location wont be lost
[19:11] Nebadon Izumi: ya it wont be so bad
[19:11] Nebadon Izumi: we'll have new configs posted on the website
[19:11] Nebadon Izumi: and we'll be around to help people
[19:11] Richardus Raymaker: still need to adjust every one for ports and database for mysql etc.
[19:11] Richardus Raymaker: but it saves work
[19:12] Nebadon Izumi: ya its gonna be a bit of work
[19:12] Nebadon Izumi: but its not that bad
[19:12] Nebadon Izumi: most everyones update scripts will still work
[19:12] Nebadon Izumi: its not change that drasticly
[19:13] Nebadon Izumi: there will be some new files eventually
[19:13] Nebadon Izumi: for osprofies
[19:13] Nebadon Izumi: but that probably wont be immediate
[19:13] Richardus Raymaker: i saw already some new ini files
[19:13] Nebadon Izumi: there will be 1 new dll people who dont use osgrid releases will have to drop in
[19:13] Nebadon Izumi:
[19:14] Richardus Raymaker: what about osserach ? still dll ?
[19:14] Nebadon Izumi:
[19:14] Nebadon Izumi: are some examples
[19:14] Nebadon Izumi: they wont be exactly the same
[19:14] Nebadon Izumi: but its a good sample
[19:14] Nebadon Izumi: ossearch yes
[19:14] Nebadon Izumi: but there is a new dll
[19:14] Nebadon Izumi: same name just newer version
[19:14] Nebadon Izumi: it will be available in downloads
[19:15] Nebadon Izumi: we'll be sure to make sure all this is known in the announcment
[19:15] Nebadon Izumi: and i'll probably have a release available atleast 24 hours prior t the actual switch over
[19:15] Nebadon Izumi: for those who want to get an early start on converting to 0.7
[19:16] Richardus Raymaker: maby idea to have all the needed modules on the migration page as download
[19:16] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats the plan
[19:16] Dave Coyle: we'll make a few announcements. when we pick the date we'll announce it at least a week in advance.
[19:16] Richardus Raymaker: do it at least 2 weekends before migaryion. its done at workday or in weekend ?
[19:17] Richardus Raymaker: migration
[19:17] Nebadon Izumi: its not going to matter really Richardus
[19:17] Nebadon Izumi: if it takes people a few days to update that wont be a big problem
[19:17] Dave Coyle: no, we can't guarantee 2 weekends notice
[19:18] Nebadon Izumi: even if we did people probably still wouldnt know
[19:18] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[19:18] Nebadon Izumi: people tend to not read our announcments anyway
[19:18] Richardus Raymaker: ok. i dont have problem with that. but you can wait for strange noise
[19:18] Nebadon Izumi: ya people are gonna complain no matter what we do
[19:18] Richardus Raymaker: the in the viewer dont work. best works on the activity screen at lest there.
[19:18] Nebadon Izumi: but we'll make sure we give ample notice
[19:19] Dave Coyle: scheduling is really about when we admins are free for a long block of time to actually run the migration. regions can be upgraded at the operator's leisure.
[19:19] Nebadon Izumi: honestly
[19:19] Nebadon Izumi: somtimes dave will make news announcments
[19:19] Nebadon Izumi: and i dont even see them on the loginscreen
[19:19] Nebadon Izumi: until days later
[19:19] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[19:19] Richardus Raymaker: dont tell LL. :O
[19:19] Nebadon Izumi: the loginscreen is usually a big blur for me
[19:20] Richardus Raymaker: sounds like some cache dont get refreshed
[19:20] Nebadon Izumi: no they are there
[19:20] Nebadon Izumi: i just dont see em
[19:20] paulie Flomar is Online
[19:20] Nebadon Izumi: brain fail
[19:20] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[19:20] Nebadon Izumi: just moving to fast
[19:20] Nebadon Izumi: dont take the time to look at it usually
[19:20] Richardus Raymaker: for some reason in the viewer i look at thge bottom, clikc login.
[19:20] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[19:21] Nebadon Izumi: the only time i ever really take notice of the loginscreen is when i myself post news
[19:21] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[19:21] Richardus Raymaker: lol
[19:21] Dave Coyle: so hows that WP sqlite migration coming?
[19:21] Quilzie Xemax: I usually go: "Hm, okay no red thing, huh nice picture. Right time to login..."
[19:21] Richardus Raymaker: wel , fonts are small for me. so important things you miss easy if its not big
[19:21] Nebadon Izumi: looks ready
[19:21] Nebadon Izumi: let me log in and test MOAP
[19:21] Nebadon Izumi: brb
[19:21] Richardus Raymaker: uhmm ehh. its here more clikc -> click -> clikc
[19:22] Nebadon Izumi: heh music channel is working right off the bat
[19:23] Nebadon Izumi: thats a good sign
[19:23] Nebadon Izumi: prims are there
[19:23] Richardus Raymaker: wich viewer nebadon ?
[19:24] Nebadon Izumi: SL 2
[19:24] Nebadon Izumi: ya this seems to be working
[19:25] Nebadon Izumi: its SL Viewer 2.1.1
[19:25] Nebadon Izumi: MOAP is working though
[19:25] Nebadon Izumi: so i guess it worked fine
[19:25] Nebadon Izumi: everything looks fine otherwise
[19:26] Nebadon Izumi: regualr media works too
[19:26] Nebadon Izumi: videos
[19:26] Nebadon Izumi: heh i have music / moap and video stream all going at same time
[19:26] Richardus Raymaker: wrong viewer. so i need to wait
[19:27] Nebadon Izumi: ya the only way to test MOAP is viewer 2
[19:27] Nebadon Izumi: no TPV's accept kirsten have MOAP
[19:27] Dave Coyle: i'm gonna log out of here and pop over w/ V2
[19:27] Nebadon Izumi: but kirstens doesnt even run for me
[19:27] Nebadon Izumi: ok Dave
[19:27] Dave Coyle is Offline
[19:27] Nebadon Izumi: doh
[19:27] Richardus Raymaker: still waiting for the old gui
[19:28] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[19:28] Nebadon Izumi: Imprudence is moving to SL2 soon
[19:28] Nebadon Izumi: but their plan is to emulate the old interface a bit more
[19:28] Richardus Raymaker: i know.
[19:29] Richardus Raymaker: as long the keep the chat input box in the chat window. thats really painfull in kirsten.
[19:46] Richardus Raymaker: bye penny, nebadon
[19:46] Gennifer Eros is Online
[19:58] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Post_Fixes) 76fd4cf: 2010-09-30 15:43:56 +0100 (Unix/Mono)

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