[11:02 AM] Joe Magarac: Hello?
[11:03 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Ubit seems to have fallen asleep
[11:04 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll see if ubit is online
[11:05 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Let's see commits... only had the partial implementation of llSetBuoyancy without the unset parts, which are a bit of a can of worms to implement hence why the set part wasn't implemented either, at least not for attachments
[11:05 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: He isn't on IRC at the moment.
[11:05 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Removing or resetting the flag on detach is quite difficult to achieve in a light manner
[11:06 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There are some heavy ways of doing it, but obviously that's no good to do each detach call
[11:06 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Cuga.
[11:06 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hello!
[11:06 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Would need additional structures to record if the flag was changed and so on, all just a lot of crap for very little gain and making detach and attach heavier
[11:08 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Kinda strange anyways because I recall taking a swim a while back with an attachment that must've used something else for that just fine and it didn't turn me into a rubber duck either, meaning I still sink to the bottom as normal these days
[11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not sure if the ultimate solution is a new attachment handling system, but that's even more work just for something that I think already works fine through other means
[11:09 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Oh youre talking about the attachment buoyancy change?
[11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yes
[11:09 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I'm interested in learning more about that
[11:10 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I have a build that can use it
[11:10 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So from what I saw in Ubit's notes, theres a problem when the attachment is detached, avatar motor doesn't reset, correct?
[11:11 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I have a travelling balloon script that uses buoyancy.
[11:11 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I never worked with it. I was given some life ring type deal a while ago to wear and that worked to make me float around quite nicely, took it off sank back to the bottom, so not sure how that works, but it seems to just be specifically for that behavior
[11:11 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You can already make things float quite well even avatars, maybe I still have that thing somewhere in inventory
[11:11 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Thats all I need. Its not easy to make things float without the recent change
[11:12 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: llAllyImpulse on a timer was the only way before
[11:12 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: llApplyImpulse*
[11:12 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There is hoverheight as well you can move avatars up and down with quite nicely
[11:13 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: upward force is needed for my applications
[11:13 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: and scripting to turn it on or off
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Other positive news this week include a merge at FS means we got our time zone back to PST/PDT with the next release, hurray
[11:14 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yay!
[11:14 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: we spent some time lamenting about that
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well I complained enough that someone listened I suppose xD
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: TJ did me that favor, I'm happy for it
[11:16 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Took some of his time setting up viewer builds yesterday to try and debug some of the other issues the viewer still has like the broken syntax highlighting and the legacy search
[11:16 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Granted my C skills are close to zero so that might take a while
[11:17 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: At least might be able to now repack the installers and include an actual grid list worth a damn. It seems HGB has completely stopped maintaining their site so their list will be broken soon enough and annoyingly that's what Firestorm currently uses for a list to present to users
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There is a big implication potentially exposing users to malicious actors via such a list. Granted I agree that curating such a list of "trusted" grids is a pain and does cause some bad blood, but I'd argue that's preferable over users ending up on a grid that scams them in some way. That makes the entire metaverse look bad
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Basic terms we all use to determine whether we trust some company with our data isn't unreasonable to apply to grids, well that's my opinion anyways
[11:20 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: HGB used to vet their list?
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Sometimes
[11:20 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So not any worse then
[11:21 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: By now some of the entries are dead and new stuff doesn't appear to be added
[11:21 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not that they were ever that up to date or particularly detail orientated
[11:22 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So a new method wouldn't be any worse
[11:23 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If Firestorm said they'd only allow grids on there that had been online for a certain amount of months or years, had some terms of service that are reasonable I don't think anyone would really mind
[11:23 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Though I suspect the bigger problem is investing the time in checking that
[11:23 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yes
[11:23 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: the bad actors will by lying
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I got a whole wall of those heh
[11:25 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Suggest not vetting but instead add a sensible warning with the list. Or do some vetting with well known names but not worry about checking all the entries on every update
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: At that point really I'd prefer no list at all
[11:26 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: We have the way of adding via link so that should be easy enough for most
[11:27 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Oh whats the link?
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: secondlife:///app/gridmanager/addgrid/login.zetaworlds.com for example
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's essentially all that new grid list in the viewer does too since it just loads a website
[11:29 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Oh you mean a custom thing set up on each OS grid?
[11:30 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: That for is not on my grid lol
[11:30 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: form*
[11:30 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You can use that as button to add it to a users grid manager yes, though FS needs to be the viewer registered to the handler
[11:30 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: what about standalone hypergrid?
[11:31 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You can put any address there
[11:31 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Did not know this. OK so its a reserved secondlife:// URL I can cann from my viewer on my own grid?
[11:32 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I can call*
[11:33 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You can put that on a website after user registers for example so they can add the grid directly if they haven't already or on the viewer download page. It's like ftp:// or http:// just the handler and then the function to run with the loginuri at the end
[11:33 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello!
[11:33 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I see
[11:33 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hi Lyr!
[11:34 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So it can be used as a convenient link for an end user to log in to that grid
[11:34 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: To add the grid to the grid manager yes
[11:35 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: confused
[11:36 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Grid manager is the replacement for HGB?
[11:36 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: or not related
[11:36 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: grid manager is Preferences->Opensim thing
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: (hi)
[11:36 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Ubit.
[11:37 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: oh right ok
[11:37 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hi Ubit
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeack my fs beta did refuse to run bc 2 old?
[11:37 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Cuga, not related. Users can add/remove entries from the list in FS as they wish.
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: im not sure i like that fs feature for opensim
[11:38 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So that adds the grid to their local list, got it. Not related to the master "grid list"replacing HGB
[11:38 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: IIRC, this grid wants a certain minimum version to avoid problems related to the viewer version.
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: it is not this grid.. it is FS
[11:39 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: FS has timebombed the viewer to not allow login after 28 days of release of a beta version
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: err not the release.. the beta
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: im on a older release
[11:39 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: ah, ok. I haven't used a beta version of viewer in a long time.
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: 17.70368
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: not sure how old.. but 0ld :)
[11:40 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. I'm still on 7.1.11
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: well if i remeber the download site i may try to get a newer beta
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: if it just by date is jaust silly
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: anyway.. if there are no problems, some one will invent new ones
[11:42 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If they had released a new beta in the meantime I could see why, but that is still the latest beta so...
[11:43 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I understand why they do that.
[11:43 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Yes, I saw their note about no newer beta that is working
[11:43 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: same here and they closed the bug report for it
[11:44 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: https://jira.firestormviewer.org/browse/FIRE-35930?filter=-6
[11:44 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Sad that this happens during their Anniversary
[11:44 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: They probably think a new beta will be available before the previous one expires.
[11:45 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'd welcome more development versions to test with certainly
[11:45 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not sure why it doesn't just phone home to check for status, it already sends a bunch of telemetry and retrieves a bunch of files from the net as is
[11:46 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: with the 28 day expiration, they recommend reverting back to a previous one
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah i see .. a very silly thing
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: nahh they say to just use the oficial release
[11:46 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I tried an earlier version, but it did not work
[11:46 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: so I installed the release candidate *girns*
[11:47 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Thank you for your solution, Tampa...
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: as i said... ppl always like to create problems where there where none
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Problems are just undiscovered solutions
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: now they have the building sistem broken and did let the beta expire
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: whatever
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: cuga.Rajal
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: seen the changes on bullet at mantis?
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: proposed changes..
[11:48 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: hyes
[11:49 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I am still trying to reach MrBlue to discuss it, but there are issues with his proposed patch
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: there are no bins for apple so i have that on "ice"
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: well i didn-t look to details
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: the multithread things.. well not fan of that for opensim
[11:49 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: That Mantis is Bullet related not apple
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: yes but no apple silicon builts...
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: that is what i meant
[11:50 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: We wouldnt use his binasry anyway
[11:50 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Need to rebuild from a patch
[11:50 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: if used at all
[11:50 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: But
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc
[11:50 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: His proposed change adds a dependency on a lib that only exists on Linux
[11:51 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So Im not thrilled with that
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: duhh
[11:51 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Mac does have its own variant of that lib, but I dont think its in the Windows ecosphere
[11:52 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: But I ewanted MrBlue to look at the Manrtis before getting back to him
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: what lib? gpu related math ?
[11:52 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yeah
[11:52 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: looking...
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: wel i told there we do not care abotu gpu
[11:52 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: OpenCL
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: mots opensim cant use any gpu
[11:53 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Bullet already had GPU optional support before his patch
[11:53 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: If we try to use GPU is better use whats already in Bullet
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: well guess tehre is some openCL for win, just not included in drivers like openGL
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: think he only worked aroud compilation settings etc
[11:53 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I tried to compile it with the Mac OpenCL drivers but didnt work
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: no real code on that
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: but didnt look much
[11:54 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Let me reach out to MrBlue and see if I can get him to answer the Mantis :)
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: anyway.. im not fan of gpu use or even multithreading
[11:54 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: should be an option, not default
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: those are great for desktop games
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: not for a app like opensim
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: specially running on a linux server
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: that have no gpu worth mentioning, and has like 100 instances of opensim up
[11:56 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: His justification was to give Bullet more "horsepower" but I rarly if even have an instance where more is needed
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: so.. where are teh cores to run the extra threads? :)
[11:56 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: and you know I do a lot of physics stuff...
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: well current bullet as a option to run it on own thread
[11:56 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: his patch also "ignores small movements" but Bullet already has that feature
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: his reasoning if fine.. for a desktop game
[11:57 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Im inclined to say NO to the proposed patch but would like MrBlue to chime in
[11:57 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: make sure my commentys are accurate
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: even on a standalone running on a desktop with a viewer.. the viewer wants the gpu
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: anyway guess there can be some sue cases of ppl with a machine just to run a single region with a 5090
[11:59 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: It woul d be nice to have a GPU option... as an option, NOT default
[11:59 AM] Joe Magarac: Gotta go, next meeting.
[12:00 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: if the comp can handle it
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: i see ppl doing 5000 Euros donations on twitch.. so guess there are ppl with machines like that to spare :)
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: cya joe
[12:01 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I'll reach out to MrBlue to see if he can chime in
[12:01 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: on that proposed Bullet patch
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: well above all im not moving if it does not work on all the platforms we want, inc apple silicon
[12:02 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: agree, needs to be cross platform same code base and features
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: ofc we do thank the efford and th contribution
[12:03 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ofc
[12:03 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yes, positive language in the Mantis is needed
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: hmm i do have here another with some changes to pgsql
[12:03 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: even of rejected
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: ill look a bit more and possible ally
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: aply
[12:04 PM] Ubit Umarov: for some reason ppl sent a patch directly to me..
[12:06 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: We are just past the hour. Any other items for today?
[12:07 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: nothing new, still working on the conference website
[12:07 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: That will keep you busy for a day or three. :)
[12:08 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: If there is nothing more for today I will call this gathering done and dusted.
[12:08 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
