Chat log from the meeting on 2020-01-07

[10:53] Kayaker Magic: Ubit: There was a guy who came to this meeting who had a list of syntax issues he had seen wity YEngine. Or did he create a mantis? Email?
[10:53] Kayaker Magic: You recall who that was?
[10:53] Ubit Umarov: don't remember that :(
[10:54] Kayaker Magic: He had crazy things like a script with no default state, and it sill ran in XEngine.
[10:54] Ubit Umarov: yes X could do odd things
[10:54] Ubit Umarov: still can :)
[10:55] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Hello, everyone.
[11:02] Kayaker Magic: Well I have some interesting news about OpenSim:
[11:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002 listening
[11:02] Kayaker Magic: Kitely has decided to finally upgrade to 0.9.1
[11:03] Kayaker Magic: I suggested that they add a button to their WEB page to switch between YEngine and XEngine.
[11:03] Ubit Umarov: and bullet/ubode :)
[11:03] Kayaker Magic: I sold them so well on the benifits of YEngine they are talking about only offering YEngine with 0.9 on Kitely!
[11:04] Ubit Umarov: well will be a pain migration for them
[11:04] Kayaker Magic: Hmm, I just assumed there would be a ubODE button also, they have one for Bullet/ODE now.
[11:04] Ubit Umarov: 2 old.. and they do have a lot of own code
[11:05] Kayaker Magic: Yeah, but they had another project fail on them and have some time to do the OpenSim merge now.
[11:05] Ubit Umarov: i was thinking exactly about that fail
[11:05] Kayaker Magic: I'm on the beta test of that other project and can't talk about it....
[11:06] Ubit Umarov: already did :p
[11:06] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: The log of the recent meeting says that the Kitley code has around 600 patches.
[11:07] Kayaker Magic: So if they do use only YEngine, they will get a lot of old scripts with XEngine syntax issues. I'm looking for a list of those.
[11:07] Ubit Umarov: just ask her on IM so it is not forgotten
[11:07] Ubit Umarov: even with just X
[11:07] Ubit Umarov: a lot changed
[11:07] Kayaker Magic: There was a guy here several months ago who had a list of XEngine things that got syntax errors in YEngine, anyone recall who that was?
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: so andrew what is new on opensim ?
[11:09] Kayaker Magic: Shouldn't we be asking you, Ubit?
[11:10] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I was going to mention we have our first new bit of news for this year. Someone named Ubit just announced that there is a new release of the Open Simulator software. Version 0.9.1.1 is now available.
[11:10] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: whats the news on BoM viewers?
[11:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: /clap
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: ahh emails work ( even with typos )
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: dayturn suports it, only on 0.9.1.x
[11:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: What is the news Arielle that has not been covered by HGB? :-)
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: i think
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: cool VL is as before
[11:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: only on 0.9.1?
[11:11] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i know there is work going on with FS Opensim
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: 1.x
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: seems cool vl kinda seems to work on old versions by miracle
[11:12] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: can dayturn jump from .9.1 to .9.0.x?
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: can't tell if on all cases
[11:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sure
[11:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it has the same jump code as FS
[11:13] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: what happens to a BoM avatar?
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: Beq from FS is working on a more stable solution
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: but still work in progress :(
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: she has been here testing ( just yesterday )
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: i fire up a old 0.8 to see things region side
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: don't know about other viewers
[11:15] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i been testing a bit with ai and may have seen a weird issue
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: fs is still not good
[11:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have been testing between OS versions, but obviously it will not come out correct in every case
[11:15] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: well it wasnt the beta fs
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: yesterday Beq had a improvement, but still only on her own local build
[11:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but nobody is crashing as far as I can test
[11:16] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: but my FS version saw him and afterward i jumped to Lbsa and a number of avatars there had no hands
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: each opensim version misbehaves its own way on that
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: if gets some BOM data
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: since we to have large scope try{} catch things, may not actually crash
[11:18] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: was there a change a while ago as to how the opensim code deals with viewers caches?
[11:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: if you say so
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: :p
[11:19] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: thought i had heard something about that though i didnt understand it all
[11:20] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: but gist of it being that the cache can have a bearing on how others see an avatar?
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: 911 has some mitigation for those missing prims/terrain patchs
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: all data points to weak GPUs/CPUs issues
[11:20] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: whats considered weak?
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: 9fps was a case
[11:21] Kayaker Magic: Arielle: The server enables viewer-side-caching of objects, so the second time you visit a region things rez faster.
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: viewer object cache put a high demand on viewers
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: with normal updates, viewer is told about hmmm 5 or so objects per udp packet
[11:22] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: so that would only affect what i see?
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: with cache it is told about 70 or so per udp packet
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: that it will need to read from disk etc etc
[11:22] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: and when you say objects, does that mean avatar related objects or just region ones?
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: some prims that are static
[11:23] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: My nVidia 1050 must be weak. I'm barely getting 9fps.
[11:23] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: so not avatar attachments?
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: ( well that means most prims on a region )
[11:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you dial everything to max, you will get 9fps with just about any card
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: no, no point on caching things that change like attachments
[11:24] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I don't dial things to max because my frame rates generally suck.
[11:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: ive 60 here with all maxed
[11:24] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I'll review them again and experiment. Perhaps there is one (or two) settings that affect the fps number more than others.
[11:25] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: advanced lighting model is not needed in opensim?
[11:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: most avatars wear the same attachments from session to session, so they can easily benefit from caching
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: ( except deepth thing.. hate that )
[11:25] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I used to get good frame rates on an older 8650(??) card.
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: well they are not cached
[11:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ALM is needed for many scenes to render as the creator intended also for opensim
[11:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sames as in SL
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: neither physics prims, animesh, etc etc
[11:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is no "need" for it
[11:26] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: oh ok i thought that utilized the materials thing
[11:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is required for materials
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: you mean before mesh avatars andrew  ? :)
[11:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but the scene will still render without ALM turned on
[11:27] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: The shaders make a noticable difference but they also affect ones view of the world.
[11:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: just looking not so good
[11:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it also has a big impact on fps on weaker GPUs
[11:27] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i'm getting around 85 fps here
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: well i do limit fps to 60 :)
[11:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: actually the viewer (FS) should also limit to 60 if they have taken all the SL code
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: i did wait for more feedback on mantis about the missing rendering things
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: the mitigation code did fix at least one case
[11:29] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: It is interesting how a newer CPU, graphics card, and viewer wind up giving me worse frame rates than I used to get.
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: had no more feedback, so did release
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: i had plans to release 911 just after oscc :(
[11:30] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: what is different about 911?
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: ( gezz i should had released it as 0.9.1.2 .. i keep telling 911 that is odd )
[11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you could dial 911 for emergency
[11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or it can mean 9/11
[11:31] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: will Ubit answer?
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: well it is a worse reference even
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: its what i said on emails and release notes
[11:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is a reason why we don't have windows version 9
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: some fixes to issues ppl did reported
[11:32] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: since we been on about viwers, i'd like to bring up the crashing Lumiya android viewer
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: in particulay "paying users"
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: and the attachments worn are now limited to 38
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: as viewers spec
[11:33] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: as it is the only viewer capable of it
[11:34] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: 38 on one point?
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: yes can all be on same point now
[11:34] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: oh good
[11:34] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: one reason to use master again
[11:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: 38 total, but can all be on one point
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: there is an option to change the behaviour of inventory wear command also
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: till now and by default wear a attachment, removes all on that point
[11:35] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: yes freaking pain that was!
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: that option allows to replace just the oldest
[11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not with the add option
[11:35] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: not a double click
[11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: wear would replace, add would add to the attachment point
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: ( not as wearables do.. that should replace the last worn )
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: but actually did not test the wearables case, just attachments
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: i will add info on that on the release notes
[11:36] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: so what is a double click?
[11:36] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: wear or add?
[11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: wear
[11:37] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: so that will still strip me?
[11:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you wear all at one point it will
[11:37] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: thats how creators do it
[11:37] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: in s/l and older opensim the double click adds
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: no idea what you are talking about.. but details :p
[11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: of course, they don't want you to wear a competitors outfit
[11:38] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: thats because you dont wear attachments?
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: i use glasses
[11:38] Kayaker Magic: I read the list of recent changes to OpenSim in the git log, is there a place to read that online?
[11:38] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: so does a doubleclick add still going to strip me?
[11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: does a double click in the offical SL viewer add?
[11:39] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: yes
[11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it does if it is assigned to a different attachment point
[11:40] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: but Ubit changed the behaviour server side in opensim master a while back
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: ( thats viewer side code.. )
[11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: usually a creator will attach a right shoe to the right foor attachment point before shipping
[11:40] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: normally yes but you changed the behaviour
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: well of course osgrid users have this changes for a while
[11:40] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: no Gavin
[11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but if everything is set to be attached to the right hand as default, it will replace also in SL
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: since osg follows master closer
[11:40] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: they all putting it on the left hand
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: ( not sure anyone noticed that new wear option )
[11:41] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: oh quite a few did
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: ok
[11:42] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i certainly have when i was stripped on a doubleclick add
[11:42] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: usually when in public
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: delete all , when they can be 38 is kinda nasty :)
[11:42] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: because it is not standard behaviour
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: guess it was.. ages ago
[11:43] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: it was selectable i believe
[11:43] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: in viewers
[11:43] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: but was removed
[11:43] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: and it became a default add
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: well master dev code is now on 0.9.2.0 Yeti
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: ( nothing changed still :) )
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: i have some broken code to commit :p
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: when i do, master will be well +- :)
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: about opensim
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: one should mention the sad issue with Great Canadian Grid
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: and hope it does get back fast
[11:46] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: see?
[11:46] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: add a hair and it strips me
[11:46] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: this is non standard
[11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: We're going from snail to Yeti?
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: i must express my dislike to see a comercial grid to ask for donations to fix its poor management
[11:47] Andrew Hellershanks wonders how Ubit decides on the names. :)
[11:47] Kayaker Magic: Well, you got the attention of all the men here....
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: specially after InWorldZ incident
[11:47] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: sure they seen a naked female avi before ;P
[11:47] Kayaker Magic: lol, especially in-world!
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: but well.. lets hope the grid does get back fast, for its users
[11:48] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: just go to LBSA and watch the spectacle when people rezz in. Very bizarre at times
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: Yeti will be a release, one day :)
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Should take that long to get the regions back up and running. If the grid has to replace a control panel system that was used to manage the grid that will probably take longer.
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: 911 is still snail
[11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so not a Porche
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: it is a snail porche :)
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: in Apple we had a Macintosh OS version with codename BHA
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: well about gcg i, like many on blogs, seen no reason why users could not be at gcg during xmas and new year
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: but well not going there
[11:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which the real meaning of was "butt head astronomer" referring to Carl Sagan
[11:51] Kayaker Magic: lol
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: just it is another bad thing for the entire opensimulator comunity and trust
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: Oh. I was wondering if BHA was some chemical, possibly a preservative in food.
[11:52] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: so how many grids left on .8.2 with kitely switching?
[11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that is DHA
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: guess a lot still
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: May it is BHT
[11:52] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: is there any need left for BoM viewer testing on .8.2 compatibility?
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: but fine.. they soon will just need to use old viewers
[11:52] Kayaker Magic: Butylated HydroxyAnisole
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: bless you, Kayaker. ;)
[11:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we must stop using all these TLAs
[11:53] Kayaker Magic: British Hospitality Association
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: BOM thing was the last compatibilty with old viewers i told about viewer devs
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: with old regions i mean ( ie 0.8 and early 0.9 )
[11:54] Kayaker Magic: BOM Bill Of Materials
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: That's my initial reaction to those initials as I deal with those on a regular basis.
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: pure suport of last opensim version is not garanted on next viewer releases
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: so we can't go on thinking about older opensim versions
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: and they can use viewers as old as they are
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: I haven't checked recently if there is a new FS viewer for Linux available that supports BOM.
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: FS suports BOM at SL :p
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: linux problem is vivox
[11:56] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: would be nice though if you could fix whatever is crashing Lumiya
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: Ah, there is a 6.3.2 release of FS now available for Linux.
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: vivox will kill the old servers one day
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: Let's hope the people working on EchoGate (IIRC), make good progress quickly so that Vivox can become a thing of the past.
[11:57] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is more like they will upgrade them
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: mumble is old option
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: but a big pain
[11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but IMA is working on that
[11:59] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: how many actually even use voice?
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: i was promissed a region side donation a year or more ago
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: nothing so far
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: ( updated mumble module i mean )
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, I often use voice inworld.
[11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: in SL a LOT
[11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not so many in opensim
[12:00] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: the few times i have activated it i quickly turn it off
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: There is a group of people I meet with semi regularly. They always use voice chat.
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: i had to use it at oscc :)
[12:00] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: open mike's, squalling kids, blaring backround music
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, yup. That's life for you. :)
[12:01] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: and people i can either not quite hear or an accent i cant make out
[12:01] Kayaker Magic: There is the Senchai library reading stories in SL and Kitely. I find vivox very reliable in Kitely, not so reliable in other OpenSim places....
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: One of the people in the group has some dogs that are often heard barking in the background.
[12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: voice may not work so good with mixed language audiences
[12:02] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: no they havent invented voice translators yet
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Almost two weeks ago I had trouble with voice in SL while I was talking with someone I know.
[12:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they have, but they don't work so good
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: hmm a thing i noticed with recent viewers
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: they to intentionally crash if they get wrong textures on prims
[12:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: to develop a good language model for dictation usually takes 5-10 years for any given language
[12:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and even then it tends to be domain specific
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: that may mean that thing some call BOM
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: ie direct apply a baked texture UUID on a mesh face
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: baked textures are not like normal textures !!
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: they can have more components.. ( 5)
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: and alpha component may not be alpha at all
[12:05] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i wonder how many will even use it
[12:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: how did you obtain the baked texture you applied to the mesh surface?
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: i do occasionaly put them on prim faces for debug and no big deal
[12:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: because you are not supposed to be able to do that
[12:06] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: only in s/l
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: but did got some of those crashes on new viewers
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: some people took our NPCs code and use it to do something they call BOM
[12:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you could you can just take a mesh avatar, walk up to somone with a fancy set of textures and apply the bake to your own avatar
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: some opensim forks have script functions to do that
[12:07] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: there is an ossl one for that
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: i once tried to warn that fork dev... was kinda offended.. they all know better, of course
[12:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it sure sucks for creators
[12:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: who want to sell their creations
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: ewll here stays the warning.. Baked textures ARE not Normal prim/mesh textures
[12:09] Kayaker Magic: The Ruth/Roth team is planning on a new mesh avatar that uses BOM
[12:09] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: already have them in s/l
[12:09] Kayaker Magic: BOM makes the "transparency HUD" unnecessary.
[12:10] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: well not exactly
[12:10] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i have found occasions where it still would be nice
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: you will need them for mesh clothes
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: mesh clothes never follow the avatar deformation correctly
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: so you need to hide the body
[12:11] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: what would be nice though is that mesh size code that Qarl made
[12:11] Kayaker Magic: BOM has something like the alpha layer you use with classic avatars.
[12:11] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: think inworldz used it
[12:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that train has long since left the station Arielle
[12:12] Kayaker Magic: So clothing desiners can supply alphas.
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: system avatars are a lot more powerful than crap mesh ones
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: have a more deformation options, motors.. etc
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: morphing..
[12:12] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: well would be nice if someone updated the sytem avatars
[12:12] Kayaker Magic: I spent a lot of time developing an improved alpha hud for sale on Kitely, now it is obsolete.... I may try to convert it into a tool for making alpha layers for BOM
[12:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: someone...
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: ll should had done that instead of crap mesh avatars
[12:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: do you have any idea of the effort that someone would have to put in?
[12:13] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: cant use the ruth/roth ones?
[12:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: less than the effort they ended up having on mesh avatars
[12:13] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: why not?
[12:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: because there is no support for morph targets for it
[12:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: every decent avatar system, including the existing SL avatar, has morph targets
[12:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you create a proper looking variety of avatar shapes and faces with deformation bones
[12:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which is why most mesh avatars looks like lifeless statues
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: BOM is just a return to the sys avatars better wearables system
[12:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes
[12:16] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: well then what about modifying the female system avatar??
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: damm stupid onion avatars guess
[12:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: same effort Arielle
[12:16] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: the male ones not too bad
[12:16] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: the female ones suck
[12:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you change the underlying mesh, you have to redo all the existing morph targets, and weighting and test it and test it and test and test it......
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: hmm about BOM
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: it is not about using old wearables !!
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: those can work fine
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: but better new ones
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: nails on old skins will not work well for example
[12:18] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: there is fixes on the MP in s/l
[12:19] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: finger and toe nails
[12:19] Ubit Umarov: and at SL new ones can use the improved 1024 px resolution
[12:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: attachments
[12:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you usually don't have to rig or deform a nail
[12:20] Andrew Hellershanks: We have been going for almost an hour and a half. I just had a phone call and will be getting another one in a couple of minutes. I need to get going.
[12:20] Ubit Umarov: here.. well depends on viewer devs :p
[12:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so it be a simple attachment
[12:20] Ubit Umarov: idea of bom is to reduce data
[12:20] Andrew Hellershanks: If you want to continue the discussions feel free to do so. Thank you all for coming and see you next week.
[12:20] Ubit Umarov: not add more attachments to fix it :p
[[12:22] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i suspect BoM is not going to make a big difference to people's complexities
[12:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: why not?
[12:23] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: because i dont think a lot will wind up using it
[12:23] Ubit Umarov: well seems all are using it
[12:23] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: where?
[12:23] Ubit Umarov: and making things for it
[12:23] Ubit Umarov: sl
[12:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I don't even have the complexity code, so I could not care less
[12:24] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i dont see it in the clubs i go to
[12:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it takes time to develop for BOM
[12:24] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: BoM still just looks like a painted on clothing
[12:24] Ubit Umarov: and for users to pay for new things
[12:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: plus many established SL devlopers have an existing base to defend
[12:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so they may not necessaruily support it immdiately
[12:25] Ubit Umarov: a lot of things on face is just painted things
[12:25] Ubit Umarov: like lips blablabla
[12:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[12:25] Ubit Umarov: just that is a big saving
[12:25] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i been able to do BoM here in opensim for 4 years or more but really only played with it a couple times
[12:26] Ubit Umarov: and on clothes you can wear skin tight shirts etc
[12:26] Ubit Umarov: under mesh things
[12:26] Ubit Umarov: so identical visual.. less data
[12:26] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: well that helps
[12:26] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: but it is only devs that care about data
[12:26] Ubit Umarov: see the video on marias announce of dayturn
[12:27] Ubit Umarov: yes it is about getting same visual effect with less data
[12:27] Ubit Umarov: and resources
[12:27] Ubit Umarov: build games and this is ALL about that
[12:27] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: thing is that mesh was supposed to be better for the sertvers
[12:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: someone made a video of it testing it in French on a French Windows 10
[12:27] Ubit Umarov: IT IS NOT
[12:27] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: now we have it and they still complaining
[12:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I realized the French localization was significantly lacking, haha
[12:28] Ubit Umarov: mesh are not better than prims on servers
[12:28] Ubit Umarov: ( and there is no mesh without a suport prim )
[12:28] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: thats what the developers said when they wanted to bring mesh in
[12:28] Ubit Umarov: NO
[12:28] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: yes, i remember it distinctly
[12:28] Ubit Umarov: they said better visual shapes
[12:29] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: said the load would be more on the users machine
[12:29] Ubit Umarov: mesh are only about more complex shapes
[12:29] Ubit Umarov: like sculpts where before
[12:30] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: oh and mesh was going to be lighter then sculpts
[12:30] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i remember that too
[12:30] Ubit Umarov: BS
[12:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it usually is
[12:30] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: well Ubit like it or not, thats what was being claimed at the time
[12:30] Ubit Umarov: BS :p
[12:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: far fewer polys to render for the same result with mesh
[12:30] Ubit Umarov: sculpts are usually smaller
[12:31] Ubit Umarov: no
[12:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes Ubit
[12:31] Ubit Umarov: no
[12:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: pull a sculpt into a modeller and be shocked
[12:31] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: shrugs, i been sitting in these meetings for years. I know what i heard
[12:31] Ubit Umarov: i made scuplt to mesh code
[12:31] Ubit Umarov: several times
[12:31] Ubit Umarov: No
[12:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes
[12:31] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: ^^\
[12:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: pull a sculpt into Zbrush or DAZ Hexagon
[12:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it royally sucks
[12:32] Ubit Umarov: just making them is a pain
[12:32] Kayaker Magic: It is POSSIBLE to make mesh with better visual look and less resources. Not all designers succeed in doing that.
[12:33] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: yes the learning curve for quality mesh is much steeper then they let on
[12:34] Ubit Umarov: and on this we are assuming good creators
[12:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: scultped panel plants that have like 6 visible faces can be made with 6 polys in mesh, but they usually have 1024 polys in a sculpt, where 1024 - 6 are hidden
[12:34] Ubit Umarov: anyone can make a crap sculpt
[12:34] Ubit Umarov: and a worse mesh :p
[12:34] Kayaker Magic: And the way LL implemented mesh avatars was a hack that uses all the resources of the old system PLUS the new mesh body on top.
[12:34] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: in s/l they should charge higher rates for bigger textures
[12:35] Kayaker Magic: That did not decrease the load on the system....
[12:35] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: oh ok that makes sense
[12:35] Ubit Umarov: mesh avatars are ton of hacks on top of hacks
[12:36] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: wear full system avatar and still put mesh body on top
[12:36] Ubit Umarov: BOM is just another hack
[12:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the system avatar is just a blip compared to most worn meshes
[12:36] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: but at least mesh hair is a lot lighter
[12:37] Ubit Umarov: hair is always heavy
[12:37] Ubit Umarov: to look natural
[12:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: fiber mesh
[12:37] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: is that like flexi's?
[12:37] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: we need flexi mesh
[12:38] Ubit Umarov: kitely told that upgrade on meetings?
[12:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Zbrush introduced fiber mesh some yars ago and it immediately became the standard to make hair
[12:38] Ubit Umarov: to 0.9.x i mean
[12:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: only you had to use millions of them to look natural
[12:38] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: ahh
[12:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I sell a cop stache in SL made with fiber mesh
[12:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and it only cover the under the nose area, still you have to wear 2 for it to look reasonable
[12:41] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: so the fiber isnt a flexi sort of thing?
[12:41] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: more like strands?
[12:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you can rig it
[12:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but
[12:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ....
[12:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes
[12:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: like strands
[12:41] Kayaker Magic: I'm thinking a combination of rigging and animesh could make nice hair....
[12:42] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: dont they have some of that now?
[12:43] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i have hair in s/l that has some small movement
[12:43] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: but is hard to see
[12:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: rigged but not animesh
[12:43] Ubit Umarov: yeah no point on animesh
[12:44] Ubit Umarov: gravity, wind,, and colisions with own body at least
[12:44] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you want your hair to freak out, it would be good to animate it different from the avatar
[12:45] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or be blown by the wind
[12:45] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or something
[12:45] Kayaker Magic: Yeah!
[12:45] Ubit Umarov: linden trees still move with wind on dayturn ?
[12:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they might
[12:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have never tested it
[12:46] Ubit Umarov: think it is a option or was on fs
[12:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok
[12:46] Ubit Umarov: and region needs to have wind active
[12:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if it is not standard SL functionality, the answer is no
[12:47] Ubit Umarov: no idea why ll killed those
[12:47] Ubit Umarov: damm silly
[12:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Dayturn has very little FS code in it
[12:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: render cost
[12:48] Ubit Umarov: yeah byt costs 20 bytes to send one
[12:48] Ubit Umarov: and some do look good
[12:48] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you start to have a large number of moving tris in a scene, it gets very costly to render
[12:48] Ubit Umarov: yeap ppl place mesh trees instead
[12:48] Ubit Umarov: no gain
[12:49] Kayaker Magic: One day I will build animesh trees....
[12:49] Ubit Umarov: and a full tree is 20 bytes on net :)
[12:49] Ubit Umarov: +-
[12:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: plus texture(s)
[12:49] Ubit Umarov: nopes
[12:49] Ubit Umarov: they have them
[12:50] Ubit Umarov: i think ??
[12:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they?
[12:50] Ubit Umarov: the limited set of trees we have
[12:50] Kayaker Magic: Probably on SL by merchants who are afraid to bring them out to the Wild West of OpenSim
[12:50] Ubit Umarov: there is not texture entry for them
[12:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you look at the content of the viewer cache of a fresh region with only systme trees, the textures are in the cache
[12:51] Ubit Umarov: yes in cache
[12:51] Ubit Umarov: not on wire
[12:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so it obviously gets the textures from somewhere
[12:52] Ubit Umarov: of course
[12:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it might be in the viewer
[12:52] Ubit Umarov: just not wire
[12:52] Ubit Umarov: so light on net
[12:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so there is a render cost for those too
[12:52] Ubit Umarov: no
[12:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and when it moves it increases dramatically when you have many
[12:53] Ubit Umarov: extra cost relative to a mesh tree with similar look is the generator code
[12:53] Ubit Umarov: ONCE
[12:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not if they move randomly per frame
[12:53] Ubit Umarov: all games have similar things also
[12:53] Ubit Umarov: ppl made trees out of flexies
[12:54] Ubit Umarov: or animate them with scripts
[12:54] Ubit Umarov: bc a still tree is ugly
[12:55] Kayaker Magic: Don't flexies and animesh only move on the viewer? Not on the server?
[12:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes
[12:55] Ubit Umarov: yes but where talking about costs on viewer
[12:55] Kayaker Magic: Ah