Chat log from the meeting on 2019-11-12

[11:02] Ubit Umarov: well the terrain code still a disgrace
[11:02] Bill Blight: I have it checking the repo every 10 minutes and if there is a new commit it builds , shutsdown, updates, and restarts
[11:03] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Avatars are Toons - nothing damages then permanenelt
[11:03] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: permanenely
[11:03] Ubit Umarov: still on ima selby ?
[11:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ha, you should have seen some avatars in SL back when. They got completely destroyed
[11:04] Kayaker Magic: Gavin shows up in my chat with the name (Loading...)
[11:04] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I still work with IMA, Ubit
[11:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: right
[11:04] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002 is online.
[11:05] Ubit Umarov: ok.. last time i heard about ima as at last oscc :)
[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: I haven't seen those initials for a while.
[11:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the reson being I am on a new build with a lot of changes SL dumped on us yesterday and voice is not loading right now
[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Leighton.
[11:05] Ubit Umarov: well and a few days ago  :)
[11:05] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: Hello everyone
[11:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: in addition they released another viewer today too
[11:05] Kayaker Magic: OK, all the (Loadings...) finally resolved, retroactively!
[11:05] Bill Blight: The new CEF and Vivox updates break a lot of things, I chose to leave them out
[11:05] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi Leighton
[11:05] Ubit Umarov: ll released a viewer?
[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Didn't SL do something that was going to possibly kill voice support in OpenSim?
[11:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: one yesterday, one today
[11:06] Ubit Umarov: outch sounds something went bad then :)
[11:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yesterday was the singleton shit, today a maint viewer
[11:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no, no
[11:06] Ubit Umarov: eep already?
[11:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: completely planned
[11:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not eep, no
[11:06] Kayaker Magic: Welcome Arielle!
[11:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Arielle
[11:07] Bill Blight whispers: I'm gonna have a long night cherry picking FS commits for OS
[11:07] Ubit Umarov: really release in next day planed?
[11:07] Arielle Popstar: Hi Kay
[11:07] Arielle Popstar: Hi Gavin
[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Arielle.
[11:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes
[11:07] Arielle Popstar: Hi Andrew
[11:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: then they can have a release party two days in a row
[11:07] Arielle Popstar: didnt there used to be 2 chairs on this corner?
[11:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: maybe you should have a 0.9.1 release party????
[11:08] Ubit Umarov: i moved one for mel last week
[11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: There is one in the corner to my right.
[11:08] Arielle Popstar: that was cause for celebration
[11:09] Arielle Popstar: dont think i have ever seen her at one of these meetings except back in 2010 :)
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: ok there it is back +- on same place
[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: It was the first time I've seen Mel here in quite a while.
[11:09] Arielle Popstar: yay
[11:09] Arielle Popstar: ty
[11:10] Arielle Popstar: i was trying outy the BoM here but it doesnt work?
[11:10] Kayaker Magic: Speaking of Melanie, she seemed to like my permission-to-call function, but didn't like the name. If I change it to IsAllowed, will my patch be accepted into Master?
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: i was talking with her last week and told had to pay attention to meeting
[11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't see a problem with that name. Let's see what the others think.
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: so she did joined also :)
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: for me, thats on hold :p
[11:13] Bill Blight: possible I broke BoM in newer Openstorm
[11:13] Arielle Popstar: BoM or the patch?
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: ohh bill wearing BoM and im with fs 6.0
[11:13] Arielle Popstar: i tried with another viewer too but it didnt work
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: the patch
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: it is on mantis if any wants to use
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: but on core.. on hold
[11:14] Arielle Popstar: Bill looks ok to me
[11:14] Kayaker Magic: I have an old viewer, bill has a red face for me.
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: brb
[11:15] Ubit Umarov is offline.
[11:15] Arielle Popstar: oh and i tried that block thing you talked about from a BoM region to a no BoM and had no issues jumping
[11:15] Arielle Popstar: thought that was not supposed to be allowed
[11:15] Ubit Umarov is online.
[11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: wb, Ubit
[11:16] Arielle Popstar: @ Ubit- oh and i tried that block thing you talked about from a BoM region to a no BoM and had no issues jumping
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: back with a older openStorm version
[11:16] Arielle Popstar: i'm on .0.9.1.111
[11:16] Arielle Popstar: is that old?
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: im on .. 20 :)
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: bill did hide a crash i want to see :)
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: well
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: so what is knew on opensim andrew?
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:18] Kayaker Magic: I notice that the YEngine comments in OpenSim.ini.example no longer says "don't use YEngine with multiple regions per instance". Is it working in that configuration now???
[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: knew? I know nothing, nothing
[11:18] Bill Blight: yeah BoM is working fine in the current viewer
[11:18] Arielle Popstar: there is a copuple questions out there already Ubit
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: and new :p
[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks says that in his best imitation of Schulz  ;)
[11:18] Bill Blight: yeah
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: yes Y should be more safe now
[11:19] Kayaker Magic: YAY! I'll be using it on more regions!
[11:19] Arielle Popstar: @Kayyaker we need a a finger drumming animation with sound
[11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: The OSCC grid has been upgraded to 0.9 and is being tested.
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: my test regions are 2 per instance :)
[11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: It will be interesting to see how it holds up with the conference traffic.
[11:19] Kayaker Magic: Oh, and I'm giving a talk at OSCC titled "What's Great About OpenSIm 0.9.1", and YEngine is going to be one of my points.
[11:20] Arielle Popstar: is OSCC going to be running yengine?
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: ohh Dear
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: No pressure on Ubit to make sure there are no major problems with YEngine. :)
[11:20] Arielle Popstar: i might go just for the excitement
[11:20] Kayaker Magic: I dont think they are YEngine, but I can still recommend it in a talk....
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: oscc should stay on X for now
[11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: The comments I've seen on the mailing list indicate that they are still using XEngine.
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: they have no time to test all changes
[11:21] Arielle Popstar: are you going to be testing concurrency for oscc ahead of time?
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: and bullet also
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: same reason
[11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: They had a question about a change between 0.8 and 0.9 that affected some scripts. It would only be something they might see only if they were using XEngine.
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: oscc is also a social thing.. no need
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: im afraid scripts also changed
[11:22] Bill Blight: If you want to see ubODE physics for info for your Talk Kayaker, check out the vehicles here, the ones on Blights Beach here on osGrid, or on my grid ourgrid.life:80:OGLA OpenWater
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: several changes on LSL even
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: ( SL also changed )
[11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, There was talk of doing a load test before the OSCC if that is what you mean.
[11:23] Bill Blight: There is also a ball dropper up on the hill on this sim, that you can play with ..
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: well time for a load test there is running out :p
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: but well thier thing
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: what BoM to BoM jumps arielle ?
[11:24] Arielle Popstar: bom to non bom
[11:24] Bill Blight: (bake on mesh is working fine here, btw, wearing the BoM avatar now)
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: that should be blocked by bom region if wearing a unversal wearable
[11:25] Arielle Popstar: when i put the system clothing on it isnt showing
[11:25] Bill Blight: you have to goto textures and select them
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: if not, tp works, and even BoM works
[11:25] Bill Blight: map part to part
[11:25] Arielle Popstar: why?
[11:26] Arielle Popstar: thats not how it works in s/l is it?
[11:26] Bill Blight: yes
[11:26] Arielle Popstar: think i just wear a premade wearable and it shows up on my mesh body
[11:26] Bill Blight: well it should default
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: well , ppl need to learn BoM
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: seems it is a confusion even at SL
[11:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you can say that
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: region code seems doing what is suposed to do
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: with current viewers that do suport it, of course..
[11:28] Bill Blight: I just put on a test shirt and it went straight to the mesh
[11:28] Arielle Popstar: ok yes, thats how i thought it was supposed to work
[11:29] Bill Blight: (I guess I was saying , IF for some reason it did not update right , you can go to the texture menu and assign it)
[11:29] Arielle Popstar: ok
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: its normal rebakes thing
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: what we get is the baked texture only
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: that the BoM point
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: that is..
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: reduce the need for onion avatars to have skin tight layers
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: only sending a single baked texture per avatar part
[11:31] Arielle Popstar: does it actually save much?
[11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: tons of geometry
[11:32] Arielle Popstar: the additional layers dont seem to add a lot anyway
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: looking to the onion things on heads guess to
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: onions are extra mesh + extra textures
[11:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: each layer adds the full geometry of the avatar shell
[11:32] Arielle Popstar: yes heads are a bit more but more need to use multiple layers even with BoM
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: textures still needed, but only seen by own avatar on rebake
[11:33] Bill Blight: cuts it down from what 65 textures to like 11
[11:33] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so if you have an avatar with 5 layers, it is 5x the geometory of the original avatar
[11:33] Bill Blight: something like that
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: ( here .. sl uses server side bkes)
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: yeap
[11:33] Arielle Popstar: i thought we had xbakes
[11:33] Arielle Popstar: isnt that server side?
[11:33] Bill Blight: so that is 1/6 the calls to the server
[11:33] Bill Blight: approx
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: onions are layers of meshs in order to have textures layers
[11:34] Arielle Popstar: in Opensim bodies, a lot are alrteady single layer
[11:34] Arielle Popstar: it really was more an s/l issue
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: well BoM is a step to what ll should had done in first place
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: IMPROVE system avatar
[11:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: agreed Ubit
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: meshed avatars as they made are just bad
[11:35] Bill Blight: unlike just applying avatar baked textures , which leaves the many more individual textures, BoM reduces the number of calls that need to be sent, (I think that is correct, Ubit?)
[11:35] Arielle Popstar: should have just put in a better system avatar and would have been done
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: hack on top of hack etc
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: and less tunable as system avatar
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: the clothes never match meshes, bc they have no morphs the system avatar has
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: they replaced a royles royce by a fiat 600
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: doing the mesh avatars they did
[11:37] Bill Blight: average mesh avatar is 10x to 500x heavier load than system avatars, having heavier default avatars would be like throwing a gigantic lag bomb at ever gred
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: so generate a few more $L on market
[11:37] Bill Blight: *grid
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: but well.. its their grid
[11:37] Bill Blight: yep and they can control every aspect of every region
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: tell ppl to make mesh avatar
[11:37] Bill Blight: They don't have HG and all the various server power to deal with
[11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: going from a 44 to an 20k avatar would not matter much compared to the 500k avatars people now use
[11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: 4k*
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: then make them impossible to see with jellyThings
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: LOL
[11:38] Bill Blight: That is true gavin
[11:38] Arielle Popstar: a naked athena or ruth is only around 3000 compleity
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: 30000 you mean
[11:38] Arielle Popstar: no
[11:38] Arielle Popstar: 3000
[11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: complexity is a number that is invented by LL for financial reasons
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: no gavin.Hird
[11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it says squat about the geometry of the avatar
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: to hide the f*up they made adding mesh avatars
[11:39] Arielle Popstar: or the texture load
[11:39] Bill Blight: The problem is , not the GOOD avatars, the ones well made, the problem is all the 300k to 1 million complexity avatars
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: they opened the door for insane size avatars
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: and those creators cry for a better rendering engine
[11:40] Bill Blight: for sure Ubit
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: non sense
[11:40] Arielle Popstar: i have flexi hairs that are more then my whole mesh avatar typically
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: some ask for unity engine on viewer
[11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: of course you do
[11:40] Arielle Popstar: so please dont make it out that high complexity is a new thing
[11:41] Bill Blight: The problem is not the avatars , the problem is the people that don't care if their one million complexity avatar makes others lag
[11:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I bet every flex geometry have their own 1024 texture too
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: unity engine would be as bad or even worse with those avatars
[11:41] Arielle Popstar: they dont know
[11:41] Bill Blight: How can they not know
[11:41] Arielle Popstar: set the throttles so they rez highly complex avatars last'
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: well BoM is a try to improve that a bit
[11:41] Arielle Popstar: because they dont have complexity number showing
[11:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Unity works prretty ppor with dynamic content
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: since it matters, i did add the suport for it
[11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: poor even
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: region side
[11:42] Arielle Popstar: support for?
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: now viewer side, and how to use..
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: not my thing :)
[11:42] Bill Blight: that is a set of diminishing returns, if you have to check every avatars complexity as they land, yet one more step in the rez process, to slow things dwn
[11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I don't even have the complexity code in the viewer
[11:43] Arielle Popstar: the complexity number should be pretty easy calculation
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: ll was forced to add complexity code
[11:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is not
[11:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is all over the viewer code
[11:43] Bill Blight: yep, pain in the ass
[11:43] Arielle Popstar: its just weird that high complex ones often rezz first
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: to force "market self regulation" they say
[11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it was actually a pain to keep it out
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: they let ppl make stupid avatars..
[11:44] Arielle Popstar: darn freedoms
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: then viewer hides them
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: so they will not sale
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: that is complexity and jellyThings logic
[11:45] Arielle Popstar: why not put in a texture resizer to the viewer so that a 1024x1024 texture can be resized easily to 512x512
[11:45] Arielle Popstar: or less
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: you can make stupid avatars, can pay the uploads costs..
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: then no one will see them :)
[11:45] Bill Blight: umm that is already in there,
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: but it is there
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: L$ did flow
[11:45] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: because you may possibly not have any mod rights to them
[11:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or copy even
[11:46] Arielle Popstar: not changing anything
[11:46] Arielle Popstar: just the resoltion
[11:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: then you resanmel the original
[11:46] Bill Blight: Graphics -> Rendering -> Restrict Maximum texture resolution to 512px
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: well about last changes on Dev code
[11:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: resample
[11:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the viewer tries to protect content creators
[11:46] Arielle Popstar: mesh resolution changes as per the distance i view it at through the lod
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: im breaking terrain code, specially terraform
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: from some odd reason no one noticed that our code was for viewers V1 only
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: was bad on current viewers
[11:47] Bill Blight: one of those things we just got used to
[11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it does not change mesh resolution, but swaps the mesh for another LOD mesh at some tresholds
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: so im changing that
[11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: do you really think the viewer decimates the mesh on the fly for you?
[11:47] Bill Blight: lol
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: brush size is now under viewer control
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: area terraform strenght also
[11:48] Arielle Popstar: oh cool Bill. thx
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: and we can change the selected parcel
[11:48] Bill Blight: It is working pretty good Ubit
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: that is the work goal
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: then "cosmetics"
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: stop using stupid double where float is more than enough
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: and try speed up code a bit
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: but terrain is still a huge code mess
[11:50] Arielle Popstar: did you try any of the code changes Lanani made to sped up the code?
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: another thing i started, on hold now it number of attachements allowed
[11:50] Arielle Popstar: oh?
[11:50] Bill Blight: I actually tested Lanani's stuff, not a fan
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: the 38 limit viewers expect will be enforced
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: and all can be on a single point
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: again another update our of viewers V1 spec
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: our == out
[11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so you can attach 38 flexi prims to one point to make a hair
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: i don't follow nani fork
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: all the changes i seen in past where basicly meaningless
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: if not wrong
[11:52] Bill Blight: many are placebo
[11:53] Arielle Popstar: well it is opensource code that could benefit Master so maybe an idea to consider for the good of the project  ?
[11:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: maybe break out individual changes as patches then and not just a big code dump
[11:53] Arielle Popstar: well it is fast and people load quickly
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: and the throttles talk.. gezz no going to waste more time trying to explain that
[11:53] Bill Blight: Maybe if she ran an actual code repository so patches could be reviewed , and you did not have to hunt in code for them, it might be better received ..
[11:54] Arielle Popstar: you never have explained it Ubit
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: yeah just files, makes impossible t look
[11:54] Arielle Popstar: and i have asked on a few occasions
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: and i did answer tons of times
[11:54] Arielle Popstar: no you didnt except "Bahh"
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: throtles are part of all internet infrasture
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: they help on things like fair usage.. trafic control etc etc
[11:55] Kayaker Magic: LaNani did more than remove throttles, she also added caches.
[11:55] Bill Blight: I remember when someone else removed all the throttles and brought metro down
[11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: This is something we need here on region crossing:
[11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: The new Disney+ streaming service has added social justice trigger warnings cautioning viewers that classic films may contain "outdated cultural depictions."
[11:55] Bill Blight: HAHAHA
[11:56] Bill Blight: I saw that Gavin
[11:56] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hehe
[11:56] Arielle Popstar: only answer i ever seen on throttles was was by Rene at HGB the other day:
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: and anyone can fork opensim.. no issues on that
[11:56] Arielle Popstar: To be precise, the hard coded throttles in snail were there because the underlying root causes of poor performance in snail were not addressed
[11:56] Bill Blight: Bahhh
[11:56] Bill Blight: (to quote Ubit)
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: seeing bloggers telling pure BS about tech issues, is nothing new..
[11:57] Arielle Popstar: and then the post goes on to explain some the changes that Nani's code addressed
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: bloggers are.. bloggers..
[11:57] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: influencers
[11:57] Bill Blight: I love it when non-developers try to solve development issues by just insulting developers
[11:57] Bill Blight: annoying
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: whatever
[11:58] Arielle Popstar: uhm well dev's insulting dev's happens on both sides
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: "evangelists" you also called them gavin? :)
[11:58] Kayaker Magic: I happen to know Rene is a developer, did lots of work on IW.
[11:58] Arielle Popstar: yes was my understanding too that he develops
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: who is rene?
[11:59] Bill Blight: Well that explains a lot, must IW people show up and are Anti-Opensim regardless of the facts
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: no idea who is rene..
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: why you mention Rene??
[11:59] Arielle Popstar: whats it matter Ubit?
[11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: In Apple we had formal titles on many positions such as "Opensource evangelist" or "USB evangelist"
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: well doesn't matter
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: opensim always had forks, and will have
[12:00] Kayaker Magic: Someone quoted Rene on the HGB blog, I was clarifying who that was.
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: and always had people talkng with no idea of things
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: nothing new
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: We are at the top of the hour. Any final questions or comments for todays gathering?
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: ( and always had bugs :p )
[12:01] Arielle Popstar: yes and you brought in code originally from avination as well as revolution smythe
12:01] Arielle Popstar: in code dumps
[12:01] Arielle Popstar: so code dumps are nothing new
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: yes we do use code from forks also
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: if it good.. of course
[12:01] Arielle Popstar: lol
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: var regions code is based on Aurora code
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: we are clear on that.. proper credits even on source file
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: Y .. again proper credits, even on source file
[12:02] Arielle Popstar: my point is that if a fork has some useful code that will make Master better, then maybe it should be looked at closer
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: look to what?
[12:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: again Arielle it is infinitely easier to look for if there is a proper repository with changes to inspect and not just the occasional code dump to wade thorugh
[12:03] Arielle Popstar: i know Gavin
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: look to as bunch of files on Zip ???
[12:04] Bill Blight: if the forks provide proper patches it is much easier to "Look At" , if they don't well, expecting core to go hunt through code for what may or may not be better is a waste of time ..
[12:04] Arielle Popstar: and i have put it out to her multiple times
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: and a list of features, some of those are actually Core changes?
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: nahh sorry no time for that
[12:04] Arielle Popstar: huh?
[12:04] Bill Blight: No time to go on a scavenger hunt for "good code"
[12:05] Arielle Popstar: you know what you dont have time for? To try carrying this project all by yourself instead of being more open to allowing code in from others
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: i do look to some forks
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: warp3d code
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: i used whitecore lib
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: changed it and told them
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: did look to halcyon also...
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: bahh
[12:06] Arielle Popstar: prob with only one dev is that the focus is only on that part of the code that particular dev has an interest in
[12:06] Bill Blight: There have been quite a few outside patches lately, and they were provided as patches, not "Go dig through my code and see what I did better than you"
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Yeah. That's not going to happen with most OS projects.
[12:08] Arielle Popstar: what about firestorm? Shouldnt they release their Opensim version as Sing, cool have already rreleased their Opensim BoM versions now?
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: firestorm is as before no Dev to look for opensim needs
[12:09] Bill Blight: It's their project they can do what they want, and we already know they are more LL focused than anything
[12:09] Arielle Popstar: oh thought Bill was doing that
[12:09] Bill Blight: I don't work for FS
[12:09] Bill Blight: LOL
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: other viewers.. don't know
[12:09] Bill Blight: I forked FS and have released the test only viewer
[12:10] Arielle Popstar: no but you are an Opensim dev working on FS code
[12:10] Bill Blight: I'm not an opensim dev
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: people using several with BoM code here
[12:10] Bill Blight: I test code
[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: I thought there was one person working on FS who was looking at the OpenSim side of things. Have they stopped working on it already?
[12:10] Arielle Popstar: oh thought you were
[12:10] Bill Blight: and beat up on Ubit
[12:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: FS don't have any opensim developer
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: cool VR did claim full 0.9.1.0 BoM suport
[12:10] Bill Blight: right
[12:10] Bill Blight: they have one
[12:11] Bill Blight: but not even part time at the moment due to real life issues
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: know ppl using other fs forks like openStorm
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, one person had stated they were going to be working on OpenSim support.
[12:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I meant for all practical purposes
[12:11] Arielle Popstar: Beq
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: if AS IS forks or with code for opensim, no idea
[12:11] Bill Blight: yeah you are right about that Gavin
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: Beq is lost in RL
12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. Need to send out a search party?  ;)
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: Dayturn said will not suport BoM for now :p
[12:12] Bill Blight: Yes even if we get FS "opensim" releases in the future, they are going to be "take what you get"
[12:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not a prio right now, but will get there
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: ( opensim viewers may need improvements on viewer side baking also like 1024px suport )
[12:13] Bill Blight: The viewer I'm working on for testing, unless it is a major fix, I've started moving farther and farther away from stock FS
[12:13] Arielle Popstar: anyone talk to Henri about his cool viewer which is supposed to be able to use whichever bake system is in effect for a region?
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: Ariellle we can't talk with people that don't talk to us
[12:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: henri's viewer is based on the old version 1 viewer code
[12:13] Bill Blight: Not "Whichever" but BoM or not BoM
[12:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: both structually, libs, UI and code
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: even lanani refuses to talk with me
[12:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is almost impossible to just use it
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: so.. well whatever
[12:14] Arielle Popstar: well might be a reason for that?
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: yeah ppl "have reasons"
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: of course
[12:15] Arielle Popstar: maybe something you said made her hesitant to talk with you?
[12:15] Bill Blight: LOL
[12:15] Arielle Popstar: ^^
[12:15] Bill Blight: Maybe insisting that her stuff is better but providing no patches might turn some people off as well ..
[12:16] Arielle Popstar: think that was after the fact
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: worse is no issues reports
[12:16] Bill Blight: she has never provided patches, so , hard to be "after the fact"
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: grids find issues and tell nothing
[12:16] Arielle Popstar: was she an opensim dev in past who did submit patches that wwere all rejjected?
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: but well nothing new on that wither
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: either
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: patchs are suposed to be rejected
[12:17] Arielle Popstar: why?
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: because that is how it is
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: basic..
[12:17] Arielle Popstar: they6 are supposed to be accepted unless they cause a bug
[12:18] Bill Blight: The percentage of patches that get accepted to ANY open source project is insanely low, and people need to understand that just because you say and think it is better, it may not be so
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: some days ago a author did deleted some from mantis
[12:18] Bill Blight: no they are not SUPPOSED to be accepted
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: we did made them visible again
[12:18] Kayaker Magic: Wait, you say only suff supplied as patches can be accepted, but you will reject them all?
[12:18] Arielle Popstar: Bill, you are doing a piss poor job of beating up on Ubity
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: bc beening refuse on core does not mean others can't use them on special cases
[12:18] Bill Blight: I only beat up on him when he deserves it
[12:18] Bill Blight: (and when I feel like it :P )
[12:19] Ubit Umarov: we have several like that
[12:19] Ubit Umarov: where refused but there, and some ppl do use on special cases
[12:19] Bill Blight: but there have been a few patches accepted over the past few months
[12:19] Kayaker Magic: Hmm, I seem to recall that there is a procedure for becoming a core dev that starts with submitting patches, if enough of them get accepted then you can be invitded to core. But if all patches are rejected.... catch 22
[12:20] Arielle Popstar: for spelling mistakes?
[12:20] Bill Blight: the problem is , many patches don't take into account the varying use cases of opensim, and may work great for one set of users and totally screw another set.
[12:20] Arielle Popstar: well BoM is like that
[12:20] Arielle Popstar: but that made it in
[12:20] Bill Blight: BoM is also a Second LIfe thing, which without that, there would be no Opensimulatr
[12:20] Arielle Popstar: it screws anyone not on .9.1
[12:21] Ubit Umarov: err no BoM is some viewer for opensim thing
[12:21] Arielle Popstar: if we not using their most recent viewer release and cant get code to fix it for us, then the point is moot
[12:21] Bill Blight: how does it screw anyone? Only has issues if you are using it and try to go to a NON BoM sim, and that is a conscious decision ..
[12:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I think BoM support is a bit rushed as it is
[12:22] Ubit Umarov: rushed??
[12:22] Bill Blight: how so?
[12:22] Arielle Popstar: it means a tiny segment may use it
[12:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: premature
[12:22] Bill Blight: It is released in SL
[12:22] Arielle Popstar: different scenerio
[12:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: well, LL can enforce conformity pretty fast on their single grid
[12:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: in opensim that is unpossible
[12:22] Arielle Popstar: they changed all their sims in one day to support it
[12:23] Ubit Umarov: and how in hell can viewer devs test it on opensim fi opensim does not have it?
[12:23] Ubit Umarov: really gavin...
[12:23] Arielle Popstar: by using a branch?
[12:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you don't have to implmente it just because it is in SL
[12:23] Ubit Umarov: chicken/egg thing
[12:23] Arielle Popstar: isnt that what branches are for?
[12:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is what branches are for
[12:23] Ubit Umarov: that is up to me and other opensim devs to decide
[12:24] Bill Blight: Would it matter if it was a branch?
[12:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: in reality there is not a single developer in opensim relying on it
[12:24] Ubit Umarov: if on branch or on a full release..
[12:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it only supports botted stuff
[12:24] Ubit Umarov: that is out call..
[12:24] Arielle Popstar: well surely you are sensitive to the needs and best interests of the community
[12:24] Bill Blight: umm
[12:24] Ubit Umarov: .. our..
[12:24] Bill Blight: works fine with Ruth/Roth
[12:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no it does not work fine when it can't be used across opensim versions and or viewers
[12:25] Arielle Popstar: the 10% that use them?
[12:25] Ubit Umarov: and see anything broken because regions happen to suport BoM ?
[12:25] Bill Blight: you mean like when we first got mesh, or first got bento , or or or or
[12:25] Arielle Popstar: no which make me wonder about your stalling ther FS release
[12:25] Arielle Popstar: but there is issues with viewer cache
[12:25] Ubit Umarov: FS release is on hold because they do not have a opensim Dev
[12:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the viewer cache in FS is a royal mess
[12:26] Arielle Popstar: they never needed a specific one before
[12:26] Bill Blight: Same tired argument when bento hit, "My viewer does not work with it" , "I see messed up avatars"
[12:26] Ubit Umarov: viewers MUST have opensim code to be used on opensim
[12:26] Arielle Popstar: the opensim one does have the code
[12:26] Arielle Popstar: for opensim
[12:26] Bill Blight: umm no it doesn't
[12:26] Bill Blight: the OS branch does not have BoM
[12:26] Arielle Popstar: and are you stalling cool or Sing?
[12:27] Ubit Umarov: but fs does not have all needed code to work on opensim
[12:27] Bill Blight: not of FS
[12:27] Arielle Popstar: have you even talked to the dev's of those viewers?
[12:27] Ubit Umarov: where are they ?
[12:27] Bill Blight: Talked to Liru a few times
[12:27] Arielle Popstar: go to their groups or other meeting places
[12:27] Ubit Umarov: i tried to talk with liru.. only got "not my thing"
[12:27] Ubit Umarov: yes
[12:28] Ubit Umarov: and our meeting place is here
[12:28] Arielle Popstar: didnt sienna geearz used to be on IRC?
[12:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they are all busy trying to keep up with SL development
[12:28] Ubit Umarov: who wants to talk with opensim dev must be on opensim meeting places
[12:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which in itself is a full time job
[12:28] Ubit Umarov: that again is pure basics
[12:28] Ubit Umarov: gavin is here.. thanks gavin :p
[12:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yw
[12:29] Arielle Popstar: well remember LL suplies them with code fo new features, Opensim doesnt
[12:29] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: moving at turtle speed, but
[12:29] Ubit Umarov: i don't see LL people going to all viewers meeting "places"
[12:29] Arielle Popstar: not seen you in their viewer meetings....
[12:29] Ubit Umarov: of course not
[12:29] Ubit Umarov: im not a SL viewer dev
[12:30] Arielle Popstar: so how would you know who goes there?
[12:30] Arielle Popstar: i've been and I know there are viewer devs there
[12:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: let's be honest about it, if not for SL there would probably not be any viewer development at all.
[12:30] Ubit Umarov: bc now and then i do talk with some who went there
[12:30] Ubit Umarov: duhhh
[12:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Ubit cannot go the the SL meetings for the same reasons I cant
[12:31] Ubit Umarov: this talk is back on "silly" moments :)
[12:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we are not SL developers or supporting LLs business model
[12:31] Ubit Umarov: well on dev there where also some bug fixes
[12:31] Bill Blight: Why doesn't Lanani come to these meetings to talk about her "Improvements"
[12:31] Andrew Hellershanks: Perhaps now would be a good time to wrap up the meeting for today. We are now half past the hour again.
[12:31] Arielle Popstar: good question Bill
[12:31] Arielle Popstar: i've asked
[12:32] Arielle Popstar: but have seen her come to some
[12:32] Ubit Umarov: Yengine had a issue with some timer things
[12:32] Bill Blight: I'm saying you are getting down on Ubit for things, that your hero is also guilty of ..
[12:32] Arielle Popstar: she has been here Bill and yuo know that
[12:32] Bill Blight: once or twice and she brought her own soap box
[12:33] Arielle Popstar: she also sees him at the Osg town hall meeting
[12:33] Arielle Popstar: has she submitted patches ?
[12:33] Ubit Umarov: well any more opensim issues to talk about?
[12:33] Bill Blight: NOt that I am aware of
[12:34] Arielle Popstar: asking Ubit
[12:34] Arielle Popstar: as he would have rejected them
[12:34] Ubit Umarov: mantis is public go see
[12:34] Bill Blight: patches should be submitted via the Mantis
[12:34] Ubit Umarov: well any more opensim issues to talk about?
[12:34] Andrew Hellershanks: Right. I'll call this meeting concluded for this week. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.