Chat log from the meeting on 2019-05-14

[11:03] Kayaker Magic: Anyone know Ubit's plans?
[11:03] Kayaker Magic: And I had a question for Bill today!
[11:11] Kayaker Magic: Leighton, do you know Bill's plans today?
[11:12] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: He has something in RL to do so he wont be here today unfortunately.
[11:12] Sheera Khan: Thank you Leighton :-)
[11:12] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: sorry to be late got into a blog post and lost track of time.
[11:13] Kayaker Magic: So far the meeting has not started yet.
[11:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: There was a viewer release last week with Radar 1.0 in it
[11:13] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: phew
[11:13] Kayaker Magic: But here is a question for Andrew:
[11:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: For download at the usual location https://www.dayturn.com/viewer/index.php?resources/
[11:14] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: ty Gavin will check that out
[11:14] Kayaker Magic: What is the status of different group modules? Didn't you do a PHP version just as Ubit fixed the c# one?
[11:15] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002 flüstert: good question Kayaker
[11:15] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002 flüstert: waits eagerly for an answer from Andrew to make notes
[11:16] Kayaker Magic: I'm having a problem with the built-in group system: When you invite an avatar to a group, if that avatar is not logged on at the time, the invite gets lost.
[11:17] Kayaker Magic: It looks like this is recorded in the table, but not used.
[11:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that is a feature
[11:17] Kayaker Magic: feature, bug, whatever.
[11:18] Kayaker Magic pokes Andrew
[11:18] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: checks Andrew for signs of life ...
[11:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: did you check if it creates an offline message for the invite?
[11:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: cause if offline messages are not stored for retrieval on login, it does not work
[11:20] Kayaker Magic: Offline messages are working, as long as the avatar is a member of the current grid, not an HG avatar.
[11:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: right
[11:20] Kayaker Magic: I'll have to check if group invite sends an IM.
[11:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: check if an offline message is stored for the invited user
[11:21] Kayaker Magic: Speaking of HG, is there any hope that offline IMs to HG avatars will ever work?
[11:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: LL did quite a bit of re-engineering of offline messages in general and introduced a couple new caps for it
[11:22] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: that would be nice
[11:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so perhaps it is worthwhile studying what they have done
[11:23] Kayaker Magic: LL is certainly not going to do anything to help HG.
[11:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: storing a HG message is not fundamentally different from storing a local one
[11:24] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: the remote saving to another grids db I assume is a little tricky
[11:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we managed to send messages to and from diverse systems over the internet since the early 90s
[11:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so it not like magic any more
[11:25] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: I am sure but thats clearly not the case for Opensim Gavin
[11:26] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: whats the discussion?
[11:26] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: xml or json I am sure could do it just like jOpenSim does
[11:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: offline messages for HG
[11:26] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: ok well funny thats up
[11:26] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: it is really frustrating to organise things and rely on HG messages
[11:27] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: I was testing and chatting with Gimisa the last couple days about HG presence and chats
[11:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so you tp around and hand out notecards
[11:28] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: and he came up with a potential solution on the presence aspect that may also be a thing for the messaging
[11:28] Kayaker Magic: If you send an IM to an HG friend and they are logged on, they get it. If you are on your home grid and they are not logged on, they don't get the IM. If you HG to the welcome area on their grid and send them an IM, it is saved for when they log on later.
[11:29] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: yes
[11:29] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: thats what I do Kayaker go to their home grid
[11:29] Kayaker Magic: The last method indicates that it is possible to IM offline IM friends, if the remote IMs just use the same path that HGing there does....
[11:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: It is potentially a matter of directory services that can look up and verify addresses across grids
[11:30] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: Gimisa's proposal was to create a child avi of the hg friend on the welcome region
[11:31] Kayaker Magic: ?chile avi?
[11:31] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: thereby making it possible to message, see online status as well as potentially get offline's
[11:32] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: and wonder if that would have some potentials for intergrid groups as well
[11:32] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: it would be easier to get the local and remote servers to speak easier, the home server has to query the remote servers presence table and that seems to fail
[11:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes
[11:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: name and address resolution
[11:32] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I'm here at last. Had a work call for something I had to deal with.
[11:32] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: can that happen without db connection details
[11:33] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: as the home server would need to authenticate or is that a publicly available table
[11:33] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: grid_user table
[11:33] Kayaker Magic: Welcome back. You don't want to know what we have been doing to your avtar in your absence.
[11:33] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: UserAccount and Presence tables
[11:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: grid_user table is a mess
[11:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: UserAccount and Presence tables as leighton says
[11:34] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: check the user exists and if they are online
[11:34] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: if not store offline IM
[11:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it already does that and it works when the user is online
[11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so there is a piece missing when someone is offline
[11:35] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: a user who HG jumps to another grid will not show as online to a hg friend who comes on after
[11:35] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: from my experience both the user check and the presence check fails before it even gets to offline IM
[11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: true Arielle
[11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: HG leaves a lot to be desired
[11:36] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: well patchy not fail altogther I get different things from different grids
[11:36] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: so this is why Gimisa suggests a child avi entry on a welcome region
[11:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I don't understand what you even mean by a child avi entry?
[11:37] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: he said it is done somewhat like that already for local users
[11:37] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: That could be hard to achieve when say you have 100 people with 100 friends
[11:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: do you suggest a live avatar sitting on a welcome region for every user?
[11:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that will fill up that region in a hurry
[11:37] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: yah Gavin, i really wished he would have come himself as he knows a lot more about it then i do
[11:38] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Kayaker, I haven't used built-in groups. I don't know whether it sends out an invite or not. I remember something about missing support for sending IMs but that may not have been related to groups.
[11:38] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: we have a child avi in regions next to here right?
[11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it does
[11:38] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: is that groups v2 kayaker
[11:38] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: not an actual physical presence
[11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I don't understand what you mean by child avi
[11:39] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: ah ok I misunderstood what you meant Arielle
[11:39] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Arielle, yes
[11:39] Kayaker Magic: Yeah, groups V2. Do you have a different implementation Andrew?
[11:40] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Kayaker, I'm still using the phpxmlrpc based groups system on my own machine.
[11:40] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: When I was using it for a grid I modified one of the support files to send out offline IMs.
[11:41] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: To clarify, I modified one of the support files outside of the phpxmlrpc set of files.
[11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is a setting in OpenSim.ini
[11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: MessageOnlineUsersOnly = true
[11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I think this defaults to off
[11:42] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: Not sure if this is helpful but might give a better idea Gavin: http://184.161.166.121:8088//opensimCommunication.pdf
[11:42] Kayaker Magic: oooh! I'll try that!
[11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and possibly only exist in opensimdefaults.ini by default
[11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Thx Arielle
[11:44] Kayaker Magic: One last question as we approach the hour: Has anyone else tried turning object occlusion on in the sim? Is there a good reason it is off by default?
[11:44] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: ty Arielle
[11:44] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: welcome though mostly just relaying Gimisa's thoughts on it
[11:45] Kayaker Magic: It does seem to work and speed things up in a crowded region. (Object Occlusion)
[11:45] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: does it put more load on the server?
[11:46] Kayaker Magic: It uses up more CPU on the sever but cuts way down on bandwidth
[11:46] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: I think it can unexpected results in certain situations so they went with a configurable option.
[11:46] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: with off being default
[11:46] Kayaker Magic: It also prevents the terrain behind you from loading until you turn around....
[11:46] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: There is a file called offline.php that was part of the opensimwi package. I used that helper function but that was the one I had to modify to send email when a user was offline.
[11:48] Kayaker Magic: Object Occlusion could use less CPU if it was based on an octree, but I hear it is looking at all the objects in a region. I don't suppose anyone is looking at adding an octree?
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: I suspect the answer to that would be no, not at this time.
[11:49] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002 flüstert: googles octree lo
[11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: would it not have to maintain an octree for every user?
[11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the viewer maintains an octree
[11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for itself
[11:50] Kayaker Magic: You can have one in each viewer for graphical purposes, and just one in the server for bandwidth purposes.
[11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: next viewer build will even have a crash fix for it
[11:51] Kayaker Magic: One octree in the server whould speed up searches to decide what objects to send to each avatar.
[11:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but it will also be like in SL where you see octree trashing
[11:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and constant reloads
[11:51] Bob.Wellman @www.pmgrid.org:8002: VOC seems to cut bandwidth nicely from my testing... maybe caching terrains would help too
[11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so not necessarily a great thing
[11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for busy scene it helps reduce the viewer memory need
[11:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for relatively sparce populated scenes, not so much as the viewer does not have to discard and reload
[11:54] Kayaker Magic: Well, I've tried the current implementation of object occlusion and I like it, an octree would give you the same thing at less CPU cost. I know someone who might like to write that....
[11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: If you go to one of the new LL home regions with the LL viewer, you will see how much it trashed because of the octree implementation both viewer and server side
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, Good. :)
[11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it can be really annoying to use
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, is it a general problem related to use of octree or perhaps the specific way in which they implemented it?
[11:56] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no, it has to do with how much will have to be reloaded as you navigate the scene
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: ok.
[11:57] Kayaker Magic: Seems to me a good implementation is possible, just don't write dumb code that sends things more than once.
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: Three minutes before the top of the hour. Does anyone have another topic for today they wish to discuss before people start leaving?
[11:58] Kayaker Magic: I have a bunch of questions for Ubit!
[11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you unloaded it from the scene, how do you know it is not updated the next time you move?
[11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: animated stuff updates all the time
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, You will have some topics for discussion next week. :)
[11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[11:59] Kayaker Magic: Gavin: use the octree to decide when to send things to the viewer, cashe them in the viewer as long as you are in the region, use a different octree to decide what to put in the viewer display list.
[11:59] Arielle Popstar: is the piper mail thing for opensim-dev dead?
[12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I agree Kayaker, but it gets more complicated with dynamic stuff in the scene
[12:01] Arielle Popstar: the mail list
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: piper mail?
[12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the mail list server
[12:01] Arielle Popstar: i used to follow it on the nabble archive but not seen anything ew since february
[12:01] Arielle Popstar: http://opensim-dev.2196679.n2.nabble.com/
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Is mail to opensim-dev not going through?
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: I haven't sent anything to it in some time.
[12:02] Arielle Popstar: doesnt look like it since february
[12:02] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: last entry is from february ...
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Kayaker. See you next week.
[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll get a hold of Melanie and/or Ubit to check on the status of the mail lists.
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: If there is nothing left I'll call this meeting to a close. Enjoy the rest of your week.