Chat log from the meeting on 2017-07-25

[10:53] Sheera Khan: the developer meeting is about to start soon ^^
[10:54] Chris Gloebit: Is this handled in text or voice?
[10:55] OtakuMegane Desu: Text. Once in a while someone plays with voice though.
[10:55] Sheera Khan: This is mostly text chat
[10:55] Sheera Khan: it's because we can have a chat log then on the wiki
[10:56] Sheera Khan: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Office_hours
[10:56] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: If we had freeswitch we could just record the whole thing heh
[10:57] Sheera Khan: freeswitch might be good for meetings like this one...
[10:57] Sheera Khan: it lacks the positional aspect though
[10:57] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I have that disabled anyways
[10:58] Sheera Khan: no distance falloff though
[10:58] Sheera Khan: so it might be less suited for RP
[10:58] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Well I suppose for RP or just to have some quiet that may be useful
[10:59] Sheera Khan: I heard there was some development done for a mumble/murmur solution which would provide for distance and direction
[11:00] Sheera Khan: Timothy even payed for that I heard
[11:00] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Unfortunately it's not finished
[11:00] Sheera Khan: but I never saw a conclusive result :-(
[11:00] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Cinder was working on it, but is asking for 10k to finish it
[11:00] Sheera Khan: ui, 10k is quite a bit
[11:00] Chris Gloebit: I need to start putting a bounty on features people ask for.
[11:01] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I would have been okay with 2, but 10 is a bit much
[11:01] Sheera Khan: I can agree to that
[11:02] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Everyone needs their food, but OpenSim at full rates for development, don't think that is appropriate really
[11:03] Sheera Khan: it wouldn't be sustainable for sure
[11:03] Chris Gloebit: Who tends to pony up the money when someone asks for a reasonable fee?
[11:05] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Any idea how much work still needs to be done to get Mumble/Murmur fully working?
[11:05] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: The basics are working, needs positional audio and some other tweaks
[11:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: $10k worth
[11:05] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I'd say about 40% left to do form what I could gather
[11:06] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Most devs I know take 100 an hour, implying this would be 100 hours of work
[11:07] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Not going to dispute it wouldn't be that much, but at full rates I would expect this not to take that long, the API is all there and the basics are working last I checked
[11:07] OtakuMegane Desu: 100 an hour? I sure picked the right field to aim for. :)
[11:08] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: OtakuMegane: You still need to find someone willing to pay you $100 an hour.
[11:08] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: cinder was involved with that wasnt she?
[11:08] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: She was the one asking for the 10k
[11:08] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: ahh yes i remember the thread
[11:08] OtakuMegane Desu: Lol, I know. Not that it's impossible but I'd think that kind of pay rate is up in the senior dev ranks.
[11:09] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: she was doing it through the company she works for
[11:09] Chris Gloebit: In SF, going rates for senior dev contract work are easily $250/hr
[11:09] Chris Gloebit: That doesn't mean everyone gets that, but I bet the min would be $100/hr
[11:09] Sheera Khan: and I really think a dev working for a business can rightfully claim that - but in this field it is a bit much for the community to put on the desk
[11:10] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I would have gladly helped out if it had be more like 2k or something along those lines
[11:10] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: isnt halcyon working on some voice option?
[11:10] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: OpenSim should remain a bit of a passion project not a job really
[11:10] OtakuMegane Desu: Ah, different area of the country affects things too of course. Cost of living and pay is a lot lower here than say SF.
[11:11] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: That is at least how I go about my business
[11:13] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Vincent, If you work on it enough it can feel like a job.
[11:13] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Well it is my only income so yeah
[11:13] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: IIRC, Mumble/Murmur needed some change on the viewer side.
[11:14] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Cinder claims to have had it working with the default Plugin though
[11:15] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Really? That's great if she has been able to do that.
[11:15] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Where that code is though I have no idea
[11:15] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: When I first heard about that combo it needed to add (or change) a module viewer side.
[11:15] Sheera Khan: but that was a bit ago, I think Vivox changed that plugin since then
[11:16] Sheera Khan: Linux isn't really supported anymore
[11:16] Sheera Khan: the plugin works on Wine though
[11:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that is not in effect yet
[11:17] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I mean those things always boil down to having an OpenSim-only viewer, sadly I don't think that will happen any time soon
[11:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but will soonish (LL keeps pushing the date)
[11:17] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Best chance would be to talk to Kokua I suppose
[11:17] Sheera Khan: Oh I thought so since my voice stopped working some time ago :-(
[11:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I am logged into Vivox now
[11:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but I have taken the latest LL code into KokuaOS
[11:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is a new SDK and a bunch of changes to certificate handling and authentication
[11:20] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I'm on Linux and still have voice working using Vivox.
[11:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it probably never will Andrew
[11:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Ll says there will be no Linux client
[11:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: from Vivox
[11:20] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Right now OpenSim is still chasing the functions the viewers promise, one day that will no longer be the case and then what. If there is ever something implemented that, while useful, isn't supported by a viewer what happens then. Example would be something like vertical parcels for skyboxes, no viewer would support 3d landdata, but it could be implemented.
[11:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: You know what Vincent?
[11:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I went through the caps support in the viewers with the develiper of Arriba
[11:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: guess how many caps there are in OpenSim server specific to OpenSim?
[11:22] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: none?
[11:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: exactly none
[11:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: out of 75 caps served by SL, OpenSim supports 42
[11:22] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: The other side of that is how many caps are there that are not supported?
[11:23] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: You answered before i got to ask. :)
[11:23] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: what are caps?
[11:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: capabilities
[11:23] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: ok ty
[11:23] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: are the other 33 important?
[11:23] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Gavin, are there any "important" caps not yet supported in OS?
[11:24] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: That's the thing though, this won't stay that way and sure it make take some time before they are all in, but if you have someone dedicated enough what stops them from binge-coding for a month and putting them all in.
[11:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I would say so
[11:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: such as AIS3
[11:24] OtakuMegane Desu: Inevitably Opensim will eventually split from the standard viewer unless OS stops all progress once it handles every SL feature. Just a matter of when.
[11:25] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: My worry is that by the time all of them are in no viewer exists anymore, SL is not going to be around forever at this rate, with viewer devs glued to it somewhat they may shutdown along with it.
[11:26] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Not saying that will happen, but the possibility exists and it's a pretty vital dependency for OpenSim
[11:27] OtakuMegane Desu: SL as it currently stands is EOL, whatever LL may say. It'll be around for years yet but it's unlikely to advance in any significant way. Everything is on SL 2 now.
[11:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: here are some of the caps not supported
[11:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: GetDisplayNames
GetExperiences
AgentExperiences
FindExperienceByName
GetExperienceInfo
GetAdminExperiences
GetCreatorExperiences
ExperiencePreferences
GroupExperiences
UpdateExperience
IsExperienceAdmin
IsExperienceContributor
RegionExperiences
NavMeshGenerationStatus
ObjectNavMeshProperties
RetrieveNavMeshSrc
TerrainNavMeshProperties
ViewerStartAuction
ViewerStats
[11:27] Chris Gloebit: And if they can get SL users to move to SL2, then they'll shut down SL rather than support it.
[11:28] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Most of those are Experience related. Not sure what that is. I haven't been in SL for some time.
[11:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Experiences would actually be a great addition
[11:28] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Whatever happened to Hippo, was that not supposed to be "our" viewer?
[11:28] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Land auctions is something that also requires a special UUID
[11:29] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: DisplayNames is something that isn't likely to get supported.
[11:29] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: then there are caps for marketplace, pathfinding and the rigged (animated) objects in development
[11:29] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: DisplayNames is something I have code lying around for just need to fix that up
[11:30] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: animated objects? That is something "new"(?) in SL?
[11:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes in development
[11:30] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Pathfinding would be useful.
[11:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: a rigged object will have full profiles and all
[11:31] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Is that a bit like NPC's on steroids? :)
[11:31] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Anything within LSL that is not yet working would be nice to have, it's one of the most used areas and likely for people to run into problems with non-functioning parts
[11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you could say that
[11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you could rig a door even
[11:32] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Focus should be on the most-used parts, that is likely what defines how users experience OpenSim especially coming from SL
[11:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it only need a very basic skeleton
[11:34] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Appearance, Inventory, Building, Scripting, User Management, those, in that order, are the priorities for most people. That is how I have been receiving feedback from customers for years now.
[11:35] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: So if that is any indication it should be the focus of the efforts, so in a sense we are at the point that Building is complete and Scripting and User Management is next
[11:35] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Sounds about the right order
[11:35] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Now something like land passes I would consider being User Management just to clear that up
[11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: does anyone even use it even in SL?
[11:36] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: yes, Gavin.
[11:36] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: With just a few LSL functions left to implement the QoL improvements are now something most people run into.
[11:37] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Example for me would be something I intend to push more, estates. No headless service should require active console interaction to set something up.
[11:37] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I've been at a couple of SL conventions where a parcel required a payment before you could access one of the events.
[11:37] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Estates, region specific should be in the Regions.ini or an estates.ini if possible
[11:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: in a configuration database you mean
[11:37] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: It should be possible to boot a simulator with multiple regions and estates solely from config files
[11:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ini files are so 90-ties
[11:38] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Adding the required data to the database beforehand is a security problem with robust-managed estates
[11:38] Chris Gloebit: I would love to talk about land passes after Vincent.
[11:38] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: You would need access to the grids database for this
[11:38] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: The remoteadmin system already has a connection to the estate connector when adding new regions to setup estates
[11:39] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Gavin, the ability to retrieve grid settings from a database does exist in OS, IIRC. I don't know if anyone has used it or tested it recently.
[11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Some database systems has very granular user accesses
[11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there are no ore security issues than accessing them on the file system
[11:40] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: The point is that it should be possible to set a regions estate owner and estate name through a config file and OpenSim to take that and register the estate to through the estate connector without user interaction
[11:40] Chris Gloebit: Andrew, yes, a land pass provides time-limited access to a parcel. The parcel owner can set the price and length of time. So, this could be used for conventions, clubs, games, etc. I'm not sure how many people want to use it, but it was missing commerce functionality.
[11:41] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org nods
[11:41] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Currently I have to directly send SQL statements to the grids database to register the estate before starting the simulator, because otherwise it requires me to access the simulator console
[11:41] OtakuMegane Desu: I think commerce is becoming a bigger thing in Opensim though nowhere near what it is in SL. Not everything is driven by spacebux in OS. :)
[11:41] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I can set the default estate through the OpenSim.ini, but that only works if all regions are supposed to be on the same estate
[11:42] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I also noticed I have some other commerce related changes I haven't pushed yet. I made it possible to collect a fee to join a group if a membership fee was set by the group owner.
[11:42] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: If I start the simulator without any of that it will ask me for estate name and owner and then use the estate connector to register them to the grid
[11:43] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: One way around that would be to specify an estate in the Regions.ini file.
[11:43] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Exactly
[11:43] Chris Gloebit: Andrew, are you modifying core or the IMoneyModule interface for that? We've already implemented Group Join Fees in the Gloebit Money Module. Will those updates break that?
[11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Any commerce changes must be general and the money modules must follow
[11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not the other way around
[11:44] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: EstateName OwnerFirst and LastName should really be in there. This would allow full configuration of a simulator and boot without user interaction required.
[11:44] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Chris, I modified the money API by adding information about a MoveMoney function that returns a boolean. The boolean states whether the move was success or not.
[11:45] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Chris, I also changed one of the core groups file to call that money move function to apply the membership fee when appropriate.
[11:45] Chris Gloebit: Gavin, happy to make improvements, but I need to be aware when core makes a change and have time to modify our implementation and ideally be able to do that in a way that I don't have to fork my money module to support the various versions of OpenSim that people still run.
[11:45] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I don't know what impact it would have on the Gloebits money module.
[11:46] OtakuMegane Desu: Not too bad an idea. Probably not too difficult for those 3 settings to be read from Regions.ini I don't think.
[11:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so you have to do like the rest of us, scan the change logs or hang out on IRC ;-)
[11:47] Chris Gloebit: Thanks Andrew. Just realized who you are in IRC.
[11:47] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: The one catch to specifying estate info in a regions ini is when people do typos.
[11:47] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Chris, :)
[11:47] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Well if estate supplied through Regions.ini fails either call for user interaction or give an error, people check logs when things break
[11:47] OtakuMegane Desu: Well, typos in that can cause all kinds of problems already. Nothing you can really do about it except tell people to be careful about important things.
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: To be flexible it should allow the estate to be specified by number when joining one that already exists.
[11:48] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: The way I have my SQL handled is I input the regions uuid, estate id, estate name and owneruuid
[11:49] Chris Gloebit: But Andrew, I'd rather work on core with redesigning commerce flows so that it is done thinking about all needs. Personally, I think it's a better system for the money module to be supplied with a callback function to call when it is done and through which it supplies success or failure states. This is more extendible and unlike the bool flow, can handle async as well as sync calls. I'd love if there were a design group working together on those changes.
[11:49] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: What could be done is setup either if EstateID present use that and ignore the rest or use EstateName and Owner if no EstateID supplied
[11:49] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: It would then be useful to have the EstateID be returned upon registration
[11:50] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Though it can be found through estate show as well
[11:50] OtakuMegane Desu: If Regions.ini estate info fails or is not present I'd fall back to the current console method for whatever setting(s) are needed.
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: Another option would be to have a default Estate.
[11:51] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Though I would have that timeout and fail with an error, because most people don't know how to handle stuck simulators if they don't have the console window in front of them
[11:52] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Default estate as they are right now are useful for single region simulators, but once you want more than one with a different estate you have to either supply direct SQL or start it and change the default estate for every consecutive region you add.
[11:53] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I toyed with setting that up, but it has a lot of failure points
[11:53] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Plus estate info also sets the region ownership since we no longer have that in the regions.ini
[11:55] James atLLOUD: Chris, are you involved with the Infinite Metaverse folk? I'm wondering if there is a commerce working group.
[11:56] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: there is a commerce WG i IMA
[11:56] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: There was a meeting in that regard last friday though I dont know what was discussed
[11:56] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Mike Lorrey is lead
[11:56] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I am in it and can carry info
[11:57] Chris Gloebit: James, yes. I was invited and went to one Commerce Working Group for the IMA.
[11:57] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: There is G+ community
[11:57] Chris Gloebit: Yes there is James. And that group would probably love to have input on these commerce changes to OpenSim.
[11:57] James atLLOUD: Working group 1 is virtual currency standards. could inform work on core.
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: What sort of standards are they talking about re: currency?\
[11:58] James atLLOUD: oh, and working group 12 for transactions.
[11:58] Chris Gloebit: What are these working groups you speak of James?
[11:58] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities/105730389866937351076
[11:58] Chris Gloebit: And how do I get involved with them?
[11:58] James atLLOUD: https://pm.infinitemetaverse.org/projects
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: WG12? How many working groups do they have?
[11:59] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hypergrid Chamber of Commerce
[12:00] Chris Gloebit: Thanks.
[12:00] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: The WGs are in various states of development -- I would say about 7 active now
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: um... I hope what I see isn't actually how many groups they have. I saw one WG numbered 101.
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Selby, ok. That's more managable.
[12:02] Chris Gloebit: So, I suggest we create a process for how core works with those groups if one doesn't already exist.
[12:02] Chris Gloebit: If those are the right stakeholder groups.
[12:02] James atLLOUD: I did not expect to see so many proposed groups either.
[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: I also didn't expect to find so many listed. I remember there was one main topic they were going to discuss.
[12:03] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: The IMA groups are supposed to represent all stake holders -- or at least all that want to be represented
[12:04] OtakuMegane Desu: Wow. That a lot of groups.
[12:04] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: IMA will have all the topics stakeholders want to work on
[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: All stake holders would be all people using the software to run a grid. That would be a lot of people.
[12:05] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: So IMA will break up discussion by interests
[12:06] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: WGs represent interests
[12:07] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I am in web-world group -- it is making big progress
[12:08] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I lead test management group -- would be active if any devs request testing
[12:09] James atLLOUD: Chris, you brought this up as commerce flow in core.
[12:09] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Mike Lorrey leads commerce group group --getting active
[12:10] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Shawn Maloney leads community group-- producing OS community web page.
[12:10] Chris Gloebit: You can get a subset of stakeholders who represent the necessary parties. As a money module developer, I'm a bit of an expert on commerce. When I developed my module, I took feedback from a few hosting providers, grid owners and users.
[12:11] Chris Gloebit: James, I was on IRC all day yesterday discussing the sudden implementation of BuyLandPass without taking the time to really talk through design.
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: The info on the currency WG talks about FinCEN and IRS rules. I don't know what FinCEN is but IRS rules are US based and won't affect people outside that country.
[12:11] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Web-world group has 2 active web-worlds on Web
[12:13] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: My web-world has user build capability
[12:13] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: http://infinitemetaverse.com/
[12:13] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Unrelated question. How difficult would it be to add capability for disabling user inventories for selective users?
[12:14] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: https://infinitemetaverse.org/
[12:14] James atLLOUD: unh, I'm so bad at navigating git. is buylandpass there?
[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Why would you want to disable someones access to inventory?
[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: James, not at that URL
[12:15] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: It was a question I was asked the other day by a customer.
[12:15] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: https://plus.google.com/communities/111689493290887039334
[12:15] James atLLOUD: ok ty Andrew - beyond my skillz anyway.
[12:15] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: They want to restrict access for normal users to most services to just have them connect and watch, no inventory, no building and so on.
[12:15] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: IMA community
[12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: James, buying land passes is in OpenSim/Region/CoreModules/World/Land/LandManagementModule.cs
[12:16] Arielle Popstar: check out Fred's outworldz
[12:16] Arielle Popstar: has a viewer option that limits aspects
[12:17] Chris Gloebit: Had to take an insurance call. If anyone is asking me questions, I'll get back to you shortly.
[12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: You can browse the git repo at http://opensimulator.org/viewgit/?a=shortlog&p=opensim then click the "Tree" link at the top of the page.
[12:18] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I personally don't really see a need to restrict inventory this way, since I can just purge it manually, but it was something that struck me.
[12:18] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Educators may want to restrict their students somewhat to avoid any issues, like oddly named inventory items for example
[12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, I know of no way to prevent someone from accessing their own inventory other than by preventing them from logging in to the grid.
[12:19] Arielle Popstar: the HG suitcase
[12:19] James atLLOUD: ty andrew - looking now
[12:20] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, ah, ok.
[12:20] Andrew Hellershanks: We are getting close to an hour and a half now. Any other topics to discuss for today or shall we wrap up this meeting?
[12:20] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Feels like this would be something to put into land data maybe Allow Inventory Access, but that would require viewer support heh
[12:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, if it was to require viewer support you can know that isn't going to happen any time soon.
[12:21] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Yeah
[12:22] Arielle Popstar: check out onlook viewer
[12:23] Chris Gloebit: James, Ubit made a bunch of commits to git yesterday regarding BuyLandPass. I can find those commits if you want to email me separately chris@gloebit.com. I had just done all the research for this and implemented it in the GMM and then minutes later it was a priority to get it into core and to do so quickly. I'm glad we are improving core, but it was done without stakeholder input and in a way where currently, the LandPass will be delivered regardless of whether the user has paid. Andrew's new function may help us fix that, but I'd prefer we spend some time designing new commerce interfaces. This rush basically erased the work I spend all weekend on and put a lot more on my plate to get it working again. As an addon developer, that's not fun.
[12:23] Andrew Hellershanks: Is OnLook viewer one that doesn't support Linux?
[12:23] Andrew Hellershanks: It has been a while since I checked their website.
[12:25] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, just checked. OnLook is for Windows and Mac only at this time.
[12:25] James atLLOUD: Ah, thanks for the explanation Chris.
[12:26] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Uh I got one more thing
[12:27] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: A few months ago I was working on figuring out how parceldata is kept in the database so I could display that on a webpage
[12:27] Andrew Hellershanks: I didn't check to see the extent of the changes to that one file. The function I want to push would simplify the code in that file and allow it to know if the money was received before allowing someone access to a parcel.
[12:27] Arielle Popstar: why was Ubit playing with the land pass?
[12:27] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: As a result I noticed that there was no way to change parcel ownership through a console command
[12:28] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I had virtec implement a quick and dirty way to change parcel ownership via parcel ID
[12:28] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: That code has been sitting there for a while now, it may require some changes, but it would be nice-to-have
[12:29] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: More of a QoL thing than required feature
[12:29] Andrew Hellershanks: You can always change parcel ownership via a land sale
[12:30] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Well the idea here is that you can rent out a region and reclaim your land easily if your tenants dont pay
[12:30] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: No need to hop inworld
[12:30] Andrew Hellershanks: You can easily reclaim the land inworld
[12:30] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: Can't you do that via LSL commands?
[12:30] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Plus landsale, unless you use Gloebit, still requires landtool to be present
[12:31] Andrew Hellershanks: I suppose there might still be some benefit to doing that via a console.
[12:31] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: there was something like llsetparceldetails ...
[12:31] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Yes that is what I had used before
[12:32] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Call me weird I like to do inworld things from consoles and webpages, integration is fun
[12:32] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/OsSetParcelDetails
[12:32] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: It shouldn't break any core stuff as it just takes already existing functions and just makes duplicates them for use with the console
[12:33] James atLLOUD: I'd love to see my inventory through a webpage :)
[12:33] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: that definitly is possible... we have a webbased Inventory manager in Metropolis Grid
[12:34] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Everything stored in the database can be made available on a webpage, just editing the database directly usually does not yield an effect inworld, well for regions that is anyways
[12:34] Andrew Hellershanks: Not that hard to do. Just takes a bit of PHP, SQL, and HTML.
[12:34] James atLLOUD: ooo, need to investigate - though I realize inventory is off topic of land management.
[12:35] Andrew Hellershanks: James, you should know by now we jump around topics and sometimes have more than one in discussion at the same time. :)
[12:35] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I have some basic parcel management done in a sense that using that new function you can view the parcels on a region and see their owners. You can then change ownership through the page resulting in the command executed on the region.
[12:36] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I don't know what real use that has, I just built it as a fun project, but the codechange would not hurt to have in core.
[12:36] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Like I said, shouldn't break anything and be compatible with .8 as well as .9
[12:38] Andrew Hellershanks: That reminds me I was starting to work on a module to remind you of upcoming events. I haven't had time to do any work on it for a while.
[12:39] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: That would probably find immediate use across a large number of grids
[12:39] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, it would.
[12:40] James atLLOUD: it would - does SL do that?
[12:41] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, SL can do that.
[12:42] Andrew Hellershanks: I think
[12:42] Andrew Hellershanks: It has been a while. The options re: event reminders is in the viewer.
[12:42] James atLLOUD: ok - ty
[12:43] Andrew Hellershanks: Quite a long time ago I made changes to the grid code to allow event markers to appear on the map.
[12:43] Andrew Hellershanks: The next step is to let people subscribe to an event and be reminded of it when it is about to start.
[12:44] James atLLOUD: not been to SL in a long time. Not been able to get to Non Profit Commons on fridays lately.