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[11:01 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:02 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew
[11:02 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hi *waves
[11:03 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I was unable to be here last week as I was tied up providing some tech support on a work project.
[11:03 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I was out traveling
[11:06 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: You didn't miss anything :)
[11:07 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Nice seeing everyone back here.
[11:08 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: We had two commits since last week
[11:08 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: d
[11:09 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I was just noticing there was some activity but not much.
[11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: osNpcPlayAnimation now plays uuids directly, mantis request that one
[11:10 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Just curious, can you do that with llPlayAnimation
[11:11 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: No, I suspect for some security thing that requires it to be in the inventory of the prim
[11:11 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It kinda makes sense to omit this for npcs, much less danger
[11:11 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I see
[11:11 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hiya Cuga and Andrew, heya Gavin!
[11:11 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hey Lyr :)
[11:11 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Great to see you, Jagga
[11:12 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: pardon my afk-ness
[11:12 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: You are in the wrong chair, Lyr. ;)
[11:12 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Lyr and Happy New Year
[11:12 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me chuckles
[11:12 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Happy New Year!
[11:12 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Yes, new year, decided I'd try hopping around
[11:12 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The other commit was a compiler thing, apparently struggled with a potentially ambiguous declaration, which is fascinating
[11:12 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me smiles and settles down
[11:13 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not the biggest fan of some of the syntax sugar as of late, readability nightmare
[11:13 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: [list - 1] being last I kinda get but [.. list] is... huh, not very descriptive imo
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: This case was more type of array but yeah
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Very little information out there why that broke in the first place, cause was apparently fixed or at least meant to be
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's Microslop so who knows, they probably don't
[11:16 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: maybe they are rewriting C# in Rust
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: play animation on avatars is limited to animations on the prim inv
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: or startdart animations known by viewers
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: stardard or 'internal'
[11:17 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: even those need to use names not uuids
[11:18 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: never understood what the fuss was about uuids, but *shtugs*
[11:18 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: shrugs
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It is a security thing requiring things to be on inventory cause you don't want your avatar randomly forced into animations you didn't consent to
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: can be uuids
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: NPCs on the other hand... can't consent or rather can't refuse >:D
[11:20 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: well it is also a copyright issue if you have an economy, you don't want anyone to be able to just play your anims
[11:20 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for free
[11:20 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: if you make them FP, is same as others using textures witjh UUID. Same issue
[11:21 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Copy/modify/transfer perms can be set for anims just like textures
[11:21 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: FP can still be sold as that and be in the inventory of a creator, who sells it with reduced permissions
[11:21 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So I don't see the difference
[11:21 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so I don't like changes like this for that reason
[11:21 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Same issue for Textures
[11:21 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes
[11:21 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: but uuids are allowed there
[11:22 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Oh, Ubit says can use uuids?
[11:22 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: should check the permissions on them (probably does)
[11:22 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I mean owner and creator
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: duuhh my vs version 147.14.19 tells the version is no longer supported and that i need to install 17.14
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: damm microslop
[11:23 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If you want more security generally turning off ossl is a good start, most functions don't check much permission wise, hence their restrictions by default
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: But that's a fundamental debate that'll take days
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It makes sense for npc, but probably not for avatar animations
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Then again I still see force animation functions in use rather than doing the little extra runtime perm check
[11:25 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I don't see the difference
[11:25 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: npcs also have a creator
[11:26 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and if the creator don't have proper permissions for the anim, then the npc shall not be allowed to use it
[11:26 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: again with reference to having an economy and not just support the free shit crowd
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Animation reference by asset uuid isn't required to have creator or ownership information, fetching that is extra work. I'm no fan of that crowd myself, but this is mostly harmless and by default only available to those that would have ways to bypass whatever you threw at it anyways
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: no checks on animation perms on npcs
[11:28 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there you have it
[11:28 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: You mean "allow animation" dialog bypass or copy/mod/transfer perms of anim?
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: in fact that could not work outside the prim inv
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: because assets have no permissions
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: i mean for npcs
[11:29 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I mean the ncp shall not have more or other permission to use and access content than the ncp creator
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: and play animation is not mod/copy/transfer
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: how could one check permissions on play ??
[11:30 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the naimation must be read from somewhere
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: not letting others around see the animation, unless full perms ?
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: not that usefull to play a animation that only owner sees
[11:31 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it would work the same as if you had an old fashion animation override
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: we send assets to all viewers supposed to see them
[11:32 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So if you know the uuis of someone else's animation that's set to no transfer, for example, could you play it with npc but not with real avatar?
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: imagine permissions to see textures on prims also
[11:32 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Assets are not required to have ownership information, so you'd have to fetch the NPC owner and check their inventory if they have the animation in there, that's a heavy call to make since it has to call inventory. If you play a lot of animations that would generate some load. Those that can spawn NPCs generally have estate rights anyways, so most security has already flown out the window
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc to use a uuid you need to know it..
[11:33 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: OK so basically god mode for animation by the NPC creator
[11:33 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: assume they are estate so thats ok
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: what god mode?
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: there is no god mode
[11:33 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: You can play uuids of animations you would otherwise not be able to access
[11:33 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you can use the uuid uncontrolled you can walk into a store selling animations, copy the uuid and start using the anims in the npcs you create
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: as i said you do need to know its UUID
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: that is protected (by viewers )
[11:34 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You cannot copy the uuid of a animation you don't already own
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: and same as for textures or sounds etc
[11:34 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: except many people knows how to work around that
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: well thats ll flaw
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: At that level they would just copy the animation rather than note down the uuid
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: we can-t do much without breaking compatibility
[11:35 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: OK so you can try with uuid but it won;t play if the copy/mod/transfer perms don't allow
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: ll also assumes you can-t get things out of viewer cache
[11:35 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: is that correct?
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: again the uuid is a asset uuid, assets have no permissions
[11:36 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Cuga, the change was just adding a way for npc to play an animation directly via uuid, nothing else was changed. All other animation functions still work the same way
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: it is making it like textureanim etc
[11:36 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Thanks for clarifying Vincent
[11:37 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I am just fascinated by this factoid. Need to go back and try some stuff
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: or llPlaySound
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: that can also play things directly from assets service
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: ok ?
[11:38 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ok :)
[11:39 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: gut even assets has an CreatorID field
[11:39 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but*
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc at sl to know a asset uuid allowys you to fecth it from their assets services directly with even just edge
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: not that each on normal opensim grids or regions
[11:40 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Assets are not required to have any information on create or owner, that's optional metadata
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: errr i meant not that easy
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: well the metadata we have on that is a old mistake
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: but viewers to add creator info on same assets
[11:41 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: creatorID manadatory would be great because it would make it possible to get rid of all kinds of random assets that fills up the table from HV visitors
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: do..
[11:41 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: HG
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Technically at least the attachment ones should be marked temporary already.... if that actually functions I don't know
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( meshes have creator info added by viewers on upload )
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's a much bigger discussion once you add the part of grids going offline and such, huge mess
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: on hg arrival the assets ar copied to locla grid assets
[11:44 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: notmif you run with a central db
[11:44 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: In this case though at least adding this capability is not really any more permissive than it already is giving what access level is required for NPCs in the first place, they'd be able to force permissions anyways. Locking things down for commerce is a grid level decision that requires code changes already if you want to get a totally locked experience
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: to avoid having to fecth them on all tps
[11:45 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I had some HG visitor with a very big inventory visiting and he alone added over 5 GB of crap to the asset table
[11:45 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It should mark the attachments packaged in the appearance serialization as temporary, but I see those sticking around regardless of that so might just be broken or disabled
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: inventory is not copied
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: only what is on attachments etc
[11:45 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Don't they go into a separate table?
[11:45 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: yes
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Cuga, part of that is travel data
[11:46 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: quite a few attachments then
[11:46 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: console was spewing folder copies for an hour after he left
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: or the user does rez ( but those stay on region only )
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Rest is taken from the serialized appearance, much like what you see in the avatars table
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It only sends over what is needed to display the avatar to others on the region
[11:47 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: all the traveler junk should go into the hg tables
[11:47 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Assets have to sit somewhere, stuffing them into db is bad
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: pff suitcase is a mess already
[11:47 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: its a godsend
[11:47 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes, I like it, too
[11:48 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: compared to life without it
[11:48 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: might have been from a grid not supporting suitcase because everything was copied over
[11:48 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: theres only one I know about :)
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: no it is not copied, a;lready told that
[11:48 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: how come the asset table grew with 5 GB from this visitor alone?
[11:48 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Could actually be that they were using suitcase and just stuffed a copy of their entire inventory in there
[11:48 AM] Ubit Umarov: no idea..
[11:49 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: could be Vincent
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: no idea what he did etc
[11:49 AM] Ubit Umarov: or scripts
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: well things days guess 5g on attachments is possible :)
[11:50 AM] Ubit Umarov: all 2k textures etc
[11:50 AM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-))
[11:50 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: suitcase seems like a good idea on paper and then they forget something, have to go back and come over again, adding stress to the region each time. Some stick loads of stuff in there to not have to go back so the amount of stuff copied might be more than just using open inventory
[11:50 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: "Here's a box of every mesh I ever built"
[11:50 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I uploaded a 198mb 4k texture the other day so yeah assets are gonna go brrrrr going forward
[11:51 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: But speaking of assets I got a question
[11:51 AM] Ubit Umarov: btw anyone tested that npc play animation ?
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( remember that some older scripts use osplayanimation also on npcs
[11:52 AM] Ubit Umarov: that will only look for uuids ( as a name ) in prim inv or internal anims
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: like llplay...
[11:53 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Assets currently sent via udp to viewer? Not via http? http is for the direct asset server to viewer?
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: depends on viewers
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: most are now http
[11:53 AM] Ubit Umarov: some viewers still want udp
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: like script sources
[11:54 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Do you know what FS uses in regards to meshes?
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: bc http at sl it totally open like osgrid
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: you know the uuid, you can get it
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: meshes are http only
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: there used to be a udp fallback... guess removed
[11:55 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Interesting. I have seen some meshes failing to render properly and TJ was wondering if that was udp packet loss causing that
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: they where to remove all udp assets
[11:55 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If they are http then it must be something else causing the render failure
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: then noticed that http is not safe
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: their http
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: many reasons for reander fail
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: i once gave them a fix for on case
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: one..
[11:57 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have only seen failures with specific meshes as well, so it could be down to corruption there, but it is strange as it seems random
[11:57 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Usually teleport out and back in fixes it, so points to viewer issue
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: viwers had a lot of issues like that in time
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: a lot of stars need to be aligned for render to work :)
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I did offer a goat sacrifice, but apparently I'm no longer allowed into the petting zoo...
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: pfff you need to use buffalos at least
[11:59 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me chuckles
[12:00 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I need to go guys
[12:00 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Take care Gavin
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: yeah same here
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: any last issue for today ?
[12:01 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: will see you next week if this Greenland madness have blow up in our faces
[12:01 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: have not
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: pff dont remember that
[12:02 PM] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: el presidente is crying every hour about not getting the nobel peace prize from Norwway
[12:02 PM] Ubit Umarov: well he got the medal
[12:02 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Take care
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: hi dino.. good boy good boy
[12:03 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me pokes the dinosaur
[12:03 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Just at the right time
[12:03 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Thanks! I must dash *waves* Have a lovely week!
[12:03 PM] Ubit Umarov: you 2 :)
