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[11:01 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:03 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Just waiting for a moment or two to see if Lyr will be joining us.
[11:03 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I had hoped to finally be able to report on the wifi problems, but the testers has gone on vacation so will have to wait some more for that feedback
[11:04 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: np, Vincent.
[11:05 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't see any code changes for this past week so there is nothing to talk about on that front. Someone else must be on vacation. :)
[11:06 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello *grins*
[11:06 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Ubit is hiding cause he knows what's coming, code review of everything I have in the pipeline xD
[11:07 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Cuga
[11:07 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hio
[11:07 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Started the other day on doing some review on some of the older things to clean them up, it's not fun
[11:07 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello Andrew, Vincent, and Cuga, Hi Joe, Jagga, and Ubit!
[11:08 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Lyr.
[11:08 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me chuckles
[11:09 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Some RL work has me occupied and not able to work on other projects at this tiem.
[11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's summer anyways, too warm to think heh
[11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Cocktail and hammock season
[11:10 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, it has been pretty toasty outside for about the past 16 days.
[11:10 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'm wearing a parka at night
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: oh yeah seems grounded 2 is full of bugs
[11:11 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: grounded 2?
[11:12 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The only big thing that happened over the past week has been on political side of things potentially affecting OpenSim in the UK due to new regulations regarding adult content of online platforms, but that's not really a development topic
[11:13 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: At least its not some new bit of nonsense from POTUS
[11:15 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: What else do we have to talk about today?
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: guess adult issues is more a grids side issue
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Joe, had the chance to test mixed region size yet?
[11:15 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I think I left those regions on autostart so they should still be there
[11:16 AM] Joe Magarac: Oh, in Sharpview? New version is out. https://www.animats.com/sharpview/releases/release-0.12.0.html
[11:16 AM] Joe Magarac: Does impostors, but none have been created for SL yet.
[11:16 AM] Joe Magarac: Sorry,. for OS. SL has a few impostors preloaded.
[11:16 AM] Joe Magarac: Next stage is to figure out impostor-making.
[11:17 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have some proof of concept style code for that, way for you to request a region by position via public grid connector and regions reporting their heightmap as raw bytes
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That combined with the maptile from robust should at least give you basic terrain
[11:18 AM] Joe Magarac: Heightmap as raw bytes would be useful. Espeically if you don't have to go to the region to get its data.
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's all a bit of a hack at the moment, because I did not want to create a whole different service connector for get_region_by_position on the public side so I just stuffed it into the grid info thing
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That returns you enough data to establish a connection to the region and ask it for the heightmap though
[11:21 AM] Joe Magarac: OK. Talk details later. nagle@animats.com
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You said you wanted to test different sized var regions though just in terms of whether they would work or not. I did setup some regions for that on ZW a couple weeks ago called Bad Idea
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: To my surprised at some point Firestorm seems to have made handling of that a bit less prone to crash as well, though I still wouldn't recommend such setups
[11:22 AM] Joe Magarac: I don't have ZetaWorlds support yet. Just OS Grid and Kietely's landing area.
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: well you are suposed to go to a region to get geta data from it
[11:23 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's mainline OpenSim code, if you have osg supported so should ZW essentially
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: to have things open without any credentials checks is kinda bad karma
[11:23 AM] Joe Magarac: Right, OS is more restricrive about asset acccess than SL.
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: and heighmaps may be considered to have copy rights
[11:24 AM] Joe Magarac: So this will need a bot to visit each region.
[11:24 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: What do you mean by different size regions? Ones of differing sizes being up against each other or ones that are not a multiple of 256m on a side?
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: https://zetaworlds.com/map?x=5401&y=5202&z=7
[11:25 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Again, wouldn't recommend doing that, it might crash randomly
[11:26 AM] Joe Magarac: Actually, the main limitation I have is that objects used as impostors have to have their assets accessible from any regoin you can go to without teleporting.
[11:26 AM] Joe Magarac: Vehicles have the same restriction. If you drive to another region, people must be able to see your car.
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: guess regions should cook own impostors like they do map
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( and map is a public asset )
[11:27 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's a lot of cpu resources though
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah a bit more than map :)
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Storing that on assets is also not good, maptiles already make a mess there, now add mesh... nah
[11:28 AM] Joe Magarac: I'd hold off on this for OS for now. I want to talk the other viewer people into supporting this.
[11:29 AM] Joe Magarac: The LL people like this thing and it might go into the Linden viewer.
[11:29 AM] Joe Magarac: Then firestorm.
[11:29 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Most connected lands tend to be var regions anyways, so with child agents you might find yourself in the center of 9 square kilometers of terrain as is, that's quite heavy on rendering all that terrain as is
[11:30 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Add impostor mesh on top of that, not sure how well that would run in FS
[11:30 AM] Joe Magarac: Overhead is about 80 LI for the entire SL grid.
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: they liked the idea of a bot scanning the region with raycasts every half meter?
[11:31 AM] Joe Magarac: I have something like that now.
[11:31 AM] Joe Magarac: Needs a lot more work.
[11:31 AM] Joe Magarac: I'm trying to recruit a major bot operator.
[11:31 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: As module with a custom endpoint provided to viewers that could work, but not really as core part, not when you want to have mesh assets of all of that
[11:32 AM] Joe Magarac: Basically, I request the mesh for a mesh UUID. and some textures.
[11:33 AM] Joe Magarac: I just need to be able to do that for regions outside of draw range but reachable by region crossing.
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: that is only 1st neib..
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: in fact on opensim you can "cross"to regions on the other side of map
[11:34 AM] Joe Magarac: What happens if I take a vehicle for a road trip in OS? The vehicle is a long way from the region where it was rezzed.
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: but well that is a undoc feature of osbjectteleport
[11:35 AM] Joe Magarac: How does a looker far from the rez point get the vehicle's mesh?
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: its official use is within same region
[11:35 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Through the neighbor service they have a presence on that region and request the data from that directly, but that will not work for regions they do not have a child agent on
[11:35 AM] Joe Magarac: Or the regions share an asset server?
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: not if outside view range
[11:36 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The regions are the asset server(s)
[11:36 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: They act like an in between proxy for it
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: asset service is same on a grid
[11:36 AM] Joe Magarac: Huh. I've done road trips in OS. Got across about 10 regions.
[11:36 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A viewer cannot directly talk to it, because of localized assets only present on the region
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( we are not talking HG on this )
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: hmm im lost you talking a mess
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: normal regions crossings..
[11:37 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I think for what you want to do perhaps a full module might be the best approach. Modules have access to private side of the connectors so you can talk to the grid and request regions by position, fetch meshes and textures from them etc.
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: yes there are no connections if outside view range.. but them also no crossings
[11:38 AM] Joe Magarac: I need to do some road trips and test.
[11:38 AM] Joe Magarac: I thought OS could do this.
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: so to see any region outside view range is kinda.. odd
[11:38 AM] Joe Magarac: Let me get back to all of you on this. I need to test more.
[11:38 AM] Ubit Umarov: when a avatar moves into view range.. it is told to connect oo the other regions
[11:39 AM] Joe Magarac: Right, I know that.
[11:39 AM] Ubit Umarov: and all it shows is what it gets from that region as child agent
[11:39 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I think I mentioned that before you can use the viewer asset caps in OpenSim too, but you'd have to figure out some fallback to local region assets for anything that isn't found or somehow detect which assets associated with objects happen to be dynamic textures
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: well i dont see why out of view range is a thing
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: out of view range should mean that... not there...
[11:40 AM] Joe Magarac: As a practical matter, do the big grids, OSGRid and ZetaWorlds use a common asset server?
[11:40 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yes
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: it irritakes me that there is no view range on local terrain
[11:41 AM] Joe Magarac: Then this will work for the big grids.
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: each grid as a assets service
[11:41 AM] Joe Magarac: That works for me.
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: has even
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: you just interact with it via region caps... not CDN like things
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( well a region can tell you to use a CDN thing )
[11:42 AM] Joe Magarac: Right. Region gives you a cap for fetching meshes and textures, which can be any URL.
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: but why talk abotu impostors on regions outside view range?
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: os regions can be 4km wide.. possible 8
[11:43 AM] Joe Magarac: So you can see mountains in the distance.
[11:43 AM] Joe Magarac: Fly around and see a runway far away.
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: on that ouside view range MUST mean that
[11:44 AM] Joe Magarac: Beyond normal view range, you see impostors, if avaiablle.
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: even RL has a max view range
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: :p
[11:44 AM] Joe Magarac: Like this https://www.animats.com/sharpview/technotes/assets/blakeseagood1.png
[11:45 AM] Joe Magarac: Tech note: https://www.animats.com/sharpview/technotes/impostor.html
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: pout nasty paterns on water
[11:46 AM] Joe Magarac: Those will become 3D models.
[11:46 AM] Joe Magarac: Like this: https://www.animats.com/sharpview/technotes/assets/lookatimpostorcampion1024.png
[11:46 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: For how complex this gets and since you want to run raycast like things perhaps the best option is a module. OpenSim can load modules from dll so you could publish a impostor.dll containing code that provides the viewer with endpoints to call such as region_ip:publicport/get_impostors which internally would ask the region to seek around itself for regions and request impostors from them if they have any available
[11:46 AM] Joe Magarac: The green peak is an impostor.
[11:47 AM] Joe Magarac: This may not take server side support at all. It doesn't in SL.
[11:47 AM] Ubit Umarov: oh why not a sculpt? :)
[11:47 AM] Joe Magarac: Maybe a cap to tell viewers where to find the impostor database.
[11:47 AM] Joe Magarac: Because you can't mesh-reduce a sculpt.
[11:48 AM] Joe Magarac: Sculpts are kind of retro.
[11:48 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Centrally storing them on assets is not going to work in OpenSim, because you have region operators from all over and the asset systems aren't meant for "updates" like that so you'd be spamming it with meshes
[11:49 AM] Joe Magarac: I figure on updating once a week, only if the terrain changed significantly.
[11:50 AM] Joe Magarac: Will need to diff height maps.
[11:51 AM] Joe Magarac: Frankly, this is mostly for SL, with its huge mainland. OS tends to be more small and medium sized estates. But I will support OS.
[11:52 AM] Joe Magarac: Anyway, thanks. Gotta go, next meeting.
[11:52 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'm just proposing a way to handle creation of them without any impact for the grid side, which already has enough garbage collecting in the database and assets
[11:52 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Joe. See you again next week.
[11:54 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Almost the top of the hour. Any last minute item for today?
[11:55 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Just wanted to mention, the HTTP kill-request Ive been reporting, the dotnet logging doesn;t help. I'll need to use a proxy server to catch it
[11:55 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: It happened again with log level 6, but logged nothing
[11:55 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Interesting
[11:56 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Would have bet money that it would log at least something
[11:56 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: nope nothing
[11:56 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's telling though, it must be something happening at higher levels of establishing connection then
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: region log happens already at high level
[11:56 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Malicious headers or return addresses
[11:57 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: it happens maybe once a week on the average, sometimes 2x a week, sometimes once a month, no regularity
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: no help on lower level protocol issues
[11:57 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: The http server dies but Opensim does not detect. All inbound connections fail after this, but Opensim thinks everything is fine
[11:57 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So requires manual restart
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: try to get a snap of the data that causes teh issues
[11:58 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: right
[11:58 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: thats what I'll try with proxy server
[11:58 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Wait so it doesn't crash the application, just hangs the http server?
[11:58 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: correct
[11:58 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: and then when I shut down OS, when it gets to the troubled thread, shutdown just hangs
[11:59 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: First thing that comes to mind there would be a looping redirect of some sort
[11:59 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: *shrugs*
[11:59 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I'll see if I can capture something
[11:59 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Setup a honeypot webserver on the same port and log everything for a week
[12:00 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: well its the OS HTTP server
[12:00 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: dotnet
[12:00 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: nginx or haproxy if you still wanna get to your grid, access log should have the connections so if you then notice it failing you can correlate
[12:01 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yes, with aproxy server I can correlate with timestamp
[12:01 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: not a big deal as it only happens every week to two
[12:01 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: thats all I had today
[12:01 PM] Ubit Umarov: well to find why and fix would be nice
[12:01 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I see lots of random traffic that I cannot even really work out where it comes from, but it's usually either bots probing for open things or seemingly spurious bits floating around
[12:01 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yes
[12:02 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Definitely an annoying problem to track down.
[12:02 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Even on local standalone I see my AV spring up saying it blocked some connection
[12:02 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Thank you for a great meeting! Must dash *waves*
[12:03 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Alternative would be adding some log output directly in code to capture things better
[12:03 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Combined with an external script to test every few minutes if http is still alive
[12:03 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Lyr. Have a good weekend and week.See you next Tuesday.
[12:03 PM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: /me waves and grins
[12:04 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: the external script is something Im planning tp add, it will send me an email when down
[12:04 PM] Ubit Umarov: it may be a deep dotnet issue.. no idea
[12:04 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Suspect may need some things like max redirect or similar safeguards added somewhere
[12:04 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Question is where...
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: the error message itself might give clues
[12:05 PM] Ubit Umarov: ok rl calls
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I can send you on IRC
[12:05 PM] Ubit Umarov: cy anext week or before..
[12:05 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Ubit. See you next week.
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I need to go too
[12:05 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Cuga.
[12:05 PM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah, try to capture the IP address as well, poke me on discord when you get something, I have a few probe tools of my own
[12:05 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ok sounds good
[12:06 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Time to wrap up todays gathering before everyone leaves. :)
[12:06 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
[12:06 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: *waves and poofs
[12:06 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: There. That makes it official.
