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[11:01 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. I'm sort of here. I'm having a late lunch so you can start without me and I'll return soon.
[11:01 AM] Ubit Umarov: no worries... the cat will eat your lunch
[11:02 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: No commits this week, devs on vacation enjoying the summer :)
[11:02 AM] Ubit Umarov: you mean melting on summer
[11:02 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It is friggn hot yes
[11:02 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, Fortunately, both cats are currently sleeping so my food would be safe.
[11:02 AM] Ubit Umarov: 40C thins week they say
[11:03 AM] Ubit Umarov: this..
[11:03 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: Something close to that for me too in a couple of days.
[11:03 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: bbiab
[11:03 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Approaching 30 here as well, inside that is, impossible to exist without AC, the servers would melt
[11:03 AM] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: we're having trouble geting to 23C
[11:04 AM] Ubit Umarov: late fiusa once was also sleeping like a angel... when i looked again she was happy draging half a chicken of my lunch almost bigger then her
[11:04 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: XD
[11:04 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Typical cat behavior
[11:04 AM] Joe Magarac: Aw.
[11:04 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah
[11:05 AM] Joe Magarac: I figured out how to do region impostors for OS, if anybody cares,
[11:05 AM] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:05 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Without asset spam I hope
[11:05 AM] Joe Magarac: Not that many.
[11:06 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: oh jeez
[11:06 AM] Joe Magarac: OS doesn't have a huge mainland, like SL. Biggest cluster of contiguous regions seems to be about 100 on OSGrid. Is that right?
[11:07 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have 500 connected as a large ocean
[11:07 AM] Ubit Umarov: oh that depends on the grid
[11:07 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Equivalent to 13000 normal regions
[11:07 AM] Ubit Umarov: some cluster around lbsa
[11:07 AM] Ubit Umarov: some gris do have "mainland" like areas
[11:07 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I think you underestimate the asset spam we already have, adding on to it isn't helpful
[11:07 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: We already store terrain map images in assets for some reason
[11:07 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello *smiles*
[11:07 AM] Joe Magarac: Why, it's one asset per region.
[11:07 AM] Ubit Umarov: hi lyr.Lobo
[11:08 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah same for the terrain images, but it's a new asset every update
[11:08 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: They aren't cleaned automatically
[11:08 AM] Joe Magarac: Are all 500 connected regions the same size?
[11:08 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: 1024x1024m
[11:09 AM] Joe Magarac: OK, no problem. I have two cases. 1) all regions same size, can have 4x, 16x, 64x impostors.
[11:09 AM] Joe Magarac: 2) regions differ in sizes, 1x only.
[11:09 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I just don't get why you wouldn't just store the impostors locally on the viewer side instead of burdening the server with them. It has the capacity to generate meshes and textures at a much better rate than the poor server CPU would given viewers require a GPU
[11:10 AM] Joe Magarac: Because the viewer has to get the impostors from somewhere.
[11:10 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yes, locally, from the hdd
[11:10 AM] Ubit Umarov: what is a lets say 64x impostor ?
[11:11 AM] Joe Magarac: 8 regions x 8 regions, very far away.
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: in your concept that is..
[11:11 AM] Ubit Umarov: you merge regions??
[11:11 AM] Joe Magarac: Yes, although I have most of this in test.
[11:12 AM] Joe Magarac: The region impostors are currently just terrain - an elevatiom map with a texture.
[11:12 AM] Joe Magarac: No buildings yet.
[11:12 AM] Joe Magarac: But you can see faraway mountains.
[11:12 AM] Joe Magarac: It's mostly fo SL, but I want to support OS too.
[11:12 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Let's say the impostors are 1mb and you have 1000 regions, that's 1gb in assets just for that. Each update it may generate a new one due to rounding errors so sends a 1mb asset to the server. Restarts daily that's another 350mb each year
[11:13 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Storage don't grow on trees
[11:13 AM] Joe Magarac: I'm thinking weekly updates.
[11:13 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: How would the region unless it kept track of the last impostor it stored somehow
[11:14 AM] Joe Magarac: ?
[11:14 AM] Ubit Umarov: hwo are you "decimating" the terrain ?
[11:14 AM] Joe Magarac: The plan is that updating is done by a bot.
[11:14 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: oh jeez
[11:14 AM] Joe Magarac: Terrain is reduced by usual mesh reduction.
[11:15 AM] Joe Magarac: Again, thiis is mostly for SL.
[11:15 AM] Joe Magarac: Long distance travel on land isn't a big thing in OS.
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: hwo do you fectch the mesh? go there fetch the heighmap?
[11:15 AM] Ubit Umarov: stop telling that...
[11:16 AM] Joe Magarac: For display, it's a mesh asset and a texture,
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: you are making a assumption only bades on a s few grids you did visit
[11:16 AM] Ubit Umarov: based
[11:16 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: How about this. I can make you some changes to the http handlers on the grid side so you can use get_region to query regions around the one you are on and get a return for their http address. Then I'll add a http handler that returns the region heightmap and the maptile image. From that you generate a mesh with the maptile applied to it, locally, on the viewer end and store that in local cache folder. That won't get you buildings, but it's a start
[11:16 AM] Joe Magarac: Yes.
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: you can't assume tehre aren't large clusters of regoins on opensim
[11:17 AM] Joe Magarac: Yes, some way to get hiight maps would help.
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: well you only need to put a child agent there :)
[11:17 AM] Joe Magarac: Are there large clusters of regions on opensim?
[11:17 AM] Ubit Umarov: but that is connection :)
[11:18 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: https://zetaworlds.com/map?x=7380&y=6971&z=2 and https://zetaworlds.com/map?x=6988&y=6954&z=2
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: btw regions view range is also a opensim setting
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: regions can be told to tell viewers to connect very far...
[11:18 AM] Ubit Umarov: and ofc BUMMM
[11:19 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Mixed sized regions technically in view distance yes, I worry about that each time I see that on the map
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: hmm ll region terrain tesslation is pretty bad
[11:19 AM] Joe Magarac: Do mixed sized regions touching even work in OS?
[11:19 AM] Ubit Umarov: nearby regions terrain shape changes a lot as we walk closer
[11:19 AM] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm back. Catching up...
[11:20 AM] Joe Magarac: The C++ viewers only support one touching region per side.
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Apart from crossings and teleport routing getting funky you can technically put them next to each other, but the viewer will not like it at all
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc they do.. as long there is only one per side
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: but i tols nothing about muxed size
[11:20 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( wakeup keyboard .. )
[11:20 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Putting a single region next to a larger one generally tends to work most of the time, but two vars is just explosions during crossings half the time
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: but i told nothing about mixed sized
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: no they do not explode
[11:21 AM] Joe Magarac: For impostors, there's no real need to impostor water-only regions.
[11:21 AM] Ubit Umarov: my test region is a 1km region with a 256m next to it
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yes that works better, but two different size vars not so much
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: for ages
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The crossings often end up at 0,0
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: all works fine
[11:22 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Something in the position calculation gets weird
[11:22 AM] Ubit Umarov: as long as there is only one per side
[11:22 AM] Joe Magarac: I actually support arbitrary touching regions in the current Sharpview but the C++ viewers don't.
[11:23 AM] Ubit Umarov: yeah they dont
[11:23 AM] Joe Magarac: I see places on the OSGrid map where that appears, but I never found those regions live when I went there.
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: osg map is not updated
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Anyway, I can look into extending the http handlers so you can do get_region_by_position on the public handler as well. Region side something to get_heightmap, the maptile should already be requestable through some handler, forgot which one but its there
[11:24 AM] Joe Magarac: I know.
[11:24 AM] Joe Magarac: Vincent, thanks.
[11:24 AM] Ubit Umarov: so you may see things not real
[11:24 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If you need specific region cases to test I'll set them up on zw for you to test that's easy enough
[11:24 AM] Joe Magarac: If there's a place on OSGrid where I can see two regoins alongside anohter region I'd like to go visit it.l
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: there used to be a "mainland" around lbsa area
[11:25 AM] Ubit Umarov: ofc "mailand" is more lag.. so ppl just prefer isolation
[11:26 AM] Joe Magarac: I saw that on the map but could not get there.
[11:26 AM] Joe Magarac: Right. Isolated regions, no problem for impostors - they're not impostored at all.
[11:26 AM] Joe Magarac: You can't see them from far away.
[11:26 AM] Ubit Umarov: well my test regions are just 1km north :)
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: errr 512m ?
[11:27 AM] Ubit Umarov: my test regions here
[11:28 AM] Ubit Umarov: on my local grid one is 256m
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: See with doing the impostors on viewer end via requesting the region heightmap a user that doesn't want theirs shown can turn that off or leave on if they want to be visible even with empty water between the regions
[11:28 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It gives privacy control to the region owner
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: how many truis do the impostors have?
[11:29 AM] Ubit Umarov: and uniform x,y sizes? or variable ?
[11:29 AM] Joe Magarac: Right. Won't even try to map anything smaller than 2x2 regions. No need for impostors.
[11:30 AM] Joe Magarac: How many tris? Right now, about 1024 for terrain.
[11:30 AM] Joe Magarac: Working on better impstors for urban areas using Open Drone Map.
[11:30 AM] Ubit Umarov: uniform density or varialble?
[11:30 AM] Joe Magarac: They get mesh reduced like everything else.
[11:31 AM] Joe Magarac: Flat regions are really cheap.
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: everything else is not a thing on c++ viewers :)
[11:31 AM] Joe Magarac: Oh, right, mesh upload for OS lacks Havok.
[11:31 AM] Ubit Umarov: diferent things have dif tessalation ( prior to gpus based tesselation )
[11:32 AM] Ubit Umarov: duhhh havoc means nothing on t6hat
[11:33 AM] Ubit Umarov: think i told many times that they use hacd mesh tools on that
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: something many others use.. or used
[11:34 AM] Joe Magarac: OK. More to say about mesh reduction in future..
[11:34 AM] Ubit Umarov: anf that is on mesh upload automatic LOD
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( or worse convex decomposition for physcis, that mostly is a fail )
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: but viewers do more tessaltion...
[11:35 AM] Ubit Umarov: liek on terrain...
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: prims also have lods..
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: all diferent ways..
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: so i asked :)
[11:36 AM] Joe Magarac: If you're into convex decomposition, there's now approximate convex decomposition. Some overlap is allowed, which results in fewer awful cases.
[11:36 AM] Ubit Umarov: this was donbe before GPU based tessaltion
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: well convex decomp is other topic, for now just not recomended for opensim
[11:37 AM] Joe Magarac: OK.
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: ubode does not use convex.. bullet does its own decomposion
[11:37 AM] Ubit Umarov: and physics is unrelated to view
[11:38 AM] Joe Magarac: Right.
[11:38 AM] Joe Magarac: SL is moving away from Havok and is looking at options.
[11:40 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: C# has options for at least two other physics engines, at least bindings exist for them, just needs a wrapper in OpenSim code to use them
[11:40 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Easier said than done
[11:40 AM] Joe Magarac: Enough from me for today. Thanks.
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: guess other option is physX
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: but that is kinda nvidia thing
[11:40 AM] Ubit Umarov: not clear how open is or will stay
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: bullet seems pretty dead
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: many games endup using own engines
[11:41 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Bullet stll gettig updates and bumped their rev a year ago
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: some derivatives of cryengine etc
[11:41 AM] Ubit Umarov: nahh only a python nonsense
[11:42 AM] Ubit Umarov: core engine is pretty dead
[11:42 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There is bepuphysics and joltphysics that have bindings for C#
[11:43 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: bepu is actually C# itself
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: well that is for crap #
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: crap c#
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: not for programs made in proper languages
[11:43 AM] Ubit Umarov: ;)
[11:43 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Dunno I have not tried either of them to see how they perform, but the demos look okay
[11:44 AM] Ubit Umarov: all demos look ok
[11:44 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The OpenSim demos I have seen beg to differ xD
[11:45 AM] Ubit Umarov: think unreal used physX now move to own Chaos engine
[11:45 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Wouldl be cool if SL and OS migrate to same engine
[11:46 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: but unlikely
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: ubity is PhysX
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: ubity ?? lol
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: ubity
[11:46 AM] Ubit Umarov: unity!!
[11:46 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes *smiles*
[11:46 AM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ubITY
[11:46 AM] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Pardon me, will be afk a bit ...thank you for the meeting
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: what opensim engine? ppl keep using bullet
[11:54 AM] Ubit Umarov: others ubode
[11:55 AM] Ubit Umarov: and ODE is even older than bullet ...
[11:56 AM] Ubit Umarov: ( i mean the engines.. not their use in opensim )
[11:57 AM] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Bullet not being maintained is kinda scary
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: well not really
[11:57 AM] Ubit Umarov: simple physics did change..
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: din't
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: does not go to web.. has no use for certs...
[11:58 AM] Ubit Umarov: no real reason for updates..
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: except possible some new CPU instructions..
[11:59 AM] Ubit Umarov: all very questionable anyways
[12:00 PM] Joe Magarac: Gotta go, next meeting. Thanks all.
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: have fun
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: well we are in the hour also
[12:00 PM] Ubit Umarov: any topic?
[12:01 PM] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: nothing new here... I do need to go RL
[12:01 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: We seem to be all talked out for today and we are at the top of the hour.
[12:02 PM] Andrew Hellershanks: I will call this meeting to a close. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
