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[11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:02] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 grins
[11:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: right - it might have been because of that
[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: I need to go shopping. With the loss of inventory I'm all gray.
[11:03] orbert tatham: You are a female ruth to me
[11:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: same for me
[11:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: naked too
[11:03] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes and wearing the Emperor's New Clothes
[11:03] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: rofl
[11:04] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: all a matter of perspective *winks*
[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: We all knew the clearing of the osgrid inventory was not a good idea. :P
[11:05] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Amen
[11:06] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: ^_^
[11:07] Ubit Umarov: one could think that osgrid does like naked ruths :p
[11:07] Ubit Umarov: but nahh they jsut did a mess on inventory cleanup
[11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: It has been a very long time since I needed to edit my appearance. I don't remember how to change shape.
[11:08] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Where have I heard that before
[11:08] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Oh right...
[11:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there should be a radio button to change to male if nothing else in the shape aditor.
[11:08] Ubit Umarov: you may need to copy body parts from opensim lib to body parts folder
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: the may hadd them pointing to the lib and those are readonly
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: also the pants and shirt
[11:09] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: new shirt1 time lol
[11:10] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: welp there he goes
[11:10] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: rip
[11:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there should be an emergency outfit box here
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: well meanwhile, abotu last week code changes..
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: wel there where a few little ones, today
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: a bug fix on mesh upload.. there since 2017...
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: and also a fix on yengine hasscript() function, also not used much
[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: That didn't work. Just got me logged out while trying to upload a file as part of resetting my appearance. :(
[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll deal with it some other day/
[11:13] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Was that mesh bug a problem with the double sided normals of that model?
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: no
[11:13] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Good :)
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: ( whatever double side normals are
[11:14] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: When you have a triangle that is visible from both sides as normally it is only visible from one side
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: they never happened
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: until a mess they added on pbr
[11:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that should never happen
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: not sure how it works on that
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: anyway unrelated to mesh
[11:15] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Well you can define a triangle to be double sided or not, by default they are all single sided with one visible and one invisible side, much like you can't see a prim from the inside
[11:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what was the consequence of the mesh upload bug?
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: there are no double normals.. just a "inside" and a "outside" defien by the normal
[11:16] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: The model I gave you have double sided normals for the fins of the dart
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: did crash on same cases
[11:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: it had a bad index... that actually did work in most case.. puff
[11:17] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: It goes through the instances aka prims and then tried to access the mesh information for each, but the actual sides of the mesh only had 4 entries instead of 7 for all the prims so the array lookup exploded
[11:17] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: The upload failed and got the uploader stuck as the lock didn't release
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: yeha it was using a bad index
[11:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: oh, that has happened
[11:18] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com:80: If anybody needs clothes I've got a huge mall on aviworlds. just search for Freebie in maps
[11:19] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I found it odd because the model has a mix of double and single sided normals. The body of the dart has single sided normals, but the fins are double sided, and there are 4 of those with the body being 3 parts. That's how it got to 7, but with the dart body being single sided 3 "faces" could be missing
[11:19] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: That at least seems logical it might assume a model either be completely single side or double side
[11:19] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Though it should adhere to collada allowing for mixing
[11:19] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: So doesn't quite add up
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: normal viewers did not render "inside" faces
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: and in fact should not do it
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: but whatever
[11:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: most likely mesh imported from other sources nad massged for opensim
[11:20] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I noticed after forcing the upload that the dart body had inside faces despite the original model not having them so it changed the model during upload
[11:21] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: It could be viewer forcing this though
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: all meshes had to have full triangles for arounf a object
[11:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for example in DAZ Studio plants that only have one sided mesh render the foliage on both sides of it
[11:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: maybe Unity does the same
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: yeha some engines do it to save on number of triangles
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: similar issue with physics
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: bullet and sl do both sides, ubode only does "outside"
[11:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yup
[11:23] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: It's an optimization technique to reduce tris count so it's a valid thing, just seems mixed models were not correctly interpreted by the viewer. Then again it is a model from a catalog, should always load it in blender and export it again to force some standard onto it as collada otherwise too open a standard not to include nonsense
[11:23] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: In any case the change should prevent it exploding :)
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: anyways was basicly a typo
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: not just about double side faces
[11:25] orbert tatham: Where did Firestorm get their mesh import code?
[11:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ll
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: collada gives code to read dae
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: they use it
[11:26] orbert tatham: I guess I have to ask why they screw it up so bad, then?
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: well the group that made collada
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: err guess fs uses mostly ll code
[11:26] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Everything LL touches eventually gets some idiotic caveats added to it
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: same for pbr
[11:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: because LL used models made in Maya as reference and had to run it trough an adobe converter and that introduced deviations for dae standard
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: i mean glft
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: that is from same group, and they also provide some code to read/write gltf
[11:28] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: LL brain surgery through the rear end
[11:28] orbert tatham: Yeah, it does always seem to come back to that
[11:28] orbert tatham: I keep wanting to get us away from them
[11:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: FS use basically LL code for pure mesh import, but for their backup thingy / export they have used more of their own code
[11:29] orbert tatham: ubit, you wrote ubODE off of the mesh standards, yes?
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: hmm?
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: well ubODE is a improvement over old ODE module
[11:30] orbert tatham: Right
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: like all, it uses own internal mesh representation
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: like all.. engines..
[11:30] orbert tatham: Bullet uses a different mesh representation than ubODE
[11:31] orbert tatham: and apparently LL and Bullet are pretty similar
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: standards are about "transport" and storage
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: internal formats are about performance
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: in case of viewers, about how to feed opengl :)
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: on physics. how to to collisions fast..
[11:33] orbert tatham: I guess I should go back and try to import some models I made earlier to see if they will import into my ubODE sims now
[11:34] orbert tatham: Anyway, thank you for the information
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: wel ubode import is only diferent from main one to proper suport the physics types NONE, PRIM and CONVEX, broken on bullet
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: ( ind is only about physics part ofc )
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: and import from a LL mesh format
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: totally unrelated with collafa.. fbx etc
[11:36] orbert tatham: Mine were all collada straight out of Blender
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: ( and viewers have a few of mesh formats
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: collada dies on viewers..
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: viewers jsut read collada ( like could read any other format ) and convert it to a ll mesh format
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: colada is irrelevant for regions.. it is only a viewer side thing
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: collada
[11:40] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: pita collada heh
[11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: pina
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: guess ll only decided to import meshes from DAE, because back then in was the only free format
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: fbx was not free to use.. etc
[11:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we are talking 2003 or earlier here
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: guess still 2007
[11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the avatar mesh must have been imported much earlier
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: you had to pay a lic to use fbx
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: what mesh avatar?
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: the one on viewers is still another ll mesh format
[11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the original avatar is a mesh
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: no idea abt its origins
[11:45] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: neither have I
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: guess a adaptation of some avatars program of the time
[11:46] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: It was either collada or obj, both are very open so a mess either way
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: anyways as i said that mesh format is unrelated to inworld mesh format
[11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it also support morph targets (the original shape sliders)
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: it has more features like morphs etc
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: yes :)
[11:47] orbert tatham: https://secondlife.fandom.com/wiki/Avatar_History
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: well that is wrong
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: avatar are not made out of primitves
[11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: maybe it was licensed from Poser or something like that
[11:49] orbert tatham: That is semi official, too
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: and it is wrong
[11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it says there were made of prims very early on
[11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: before the mesh based
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: wel at least no clear..
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: not
[11:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: agreed
[11:51] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Probably mean the prim sculptures that used to be quite common back in the day, I still have an avatar like that
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: because ruth has its own mesh system as we said
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: way before the hacks of "inworld" mesh avatars
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: a big ll mistake
[11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they will get an L for that
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: they should instead improved the system avatar modle
[11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: totally agree
[11:52] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Especially since most mesh bodies I have seen have less transforms than the system avatar
[11:52] orbert tatham: From what I read into it, the system avatar was a parameterized mesh built into the viewer, where the "other" mesh was sownloaded
[11:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: with the original uv map for backward compatibility in addition to a new uv map
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: it is not "was" it is "IS"
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: and it included the wearbles etc etc
[11:53] orbert tatham: I stand corrected
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: that they did recover a bit with BOM
[11:54] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Only thing that really changed with the system avatar model were additional bones and a small fix to some misaligned triangles early on
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: yeah bento added some more bones etc
[11:56] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which is when they should have updated the avatar mesh
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: but never did bother on improving those base meshes
[11:56] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: They should have just added a V2 version to be selectable in appearance
[11:56] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so the system avatar could move the fingers, which is unpossible on the original avatar mesh
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: ppl from the rute ?? tried to improve the system meshs
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: ada? was on several of thios meetings and we talked abotu that
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: kaykaer is on that team also
[11:59] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Do you mean the Ruth2.0 thing? That never really went anywhere
[11:59] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Was just a mesh body
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: oops that
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: well they also tried to improve the System meshes shipped with viewers
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: not that easy
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: bc the importers we have for that format are not that good
[12:00] orbert tatham: There's a shock
[12:00] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: They never added the necessary transforms and weights to that so it's really no different than the other mesh bodies
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: and thing try to make collada, and collada does not support all the needed features of thsoe meshes
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: ..think..
[12:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it would also have had to support the morph targets in the shape editor
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: guess a direct converter into blender format was needed
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: collada is just bad
[12:02] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Like I said, have yet to see mesh body that can transform based on the shape data, they usually lack definition so changing the shape often doesn't do anything
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: you are talking abotu the hacks ll now calls mesh avatars
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: using "inworld" mesh asset format
[12:03] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Wearing a second skin... where have I heard that before
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: we where talking about the internal system avatar mesh system
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: a lot more complex
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: and better..
[12:04] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: yeah
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: just ll made it with resolution etc for the early 2000's
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: and never did improve it. went instead to that hacks path
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: bc those hacks make the market work.. and give a lto of $$
[12:05] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Improve the internal mesh.. nah.. build a market on third party mesh that all looks the same
[12:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: maybe we should hit Trump there is potential for tariffs there
[12:06] orbert tatham: Please, HIT him hard
[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if he can put tariffs on an uninhabited penguin island, why not an LL island??
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: ok
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: rl calls
[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Ubit.
[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Any last minute items before we wrap for today?
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: hope to see you all next week, if not before :)
[12:07] orbert tatham: Thanks for the information, UBit
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: pff old news ;)
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: On that note, I will call this meeting to a close. This time I'll remember to turn off the chat logger. :)
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
