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[11:03 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew
[11:03 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: For the record... Hello, everyone. :)
[11:03 AM PT] Lyr Lobo: Hello *grins*
[11:04 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: oh we had a few tiny code changes last week
[11:04 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well both after last meeting :)
[11:05 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:06 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: fixed a issue on casting a vector from string, a space btw last comma and z value did force a result
[11:06 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: (mantis 9159)
[11:06 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and the same for rotation..
[11:06 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and mantis 9158: allow it on prim inv to non-mod prim inventory if same owner and allowdrop was set on target
[11:07 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: this is not clear from lsl wiki but does work like that at sl
[11:08 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well that was it :)
[11:09 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: err "allow it" means allow a prim do give a item from its inventory to another prim
[11:09 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ..to..
[11:10 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: oh i only started typing and you all fallen asleep?
[11:10 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: by script?
[11:10 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeap, llGiveInventory
[11:10 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok
[11:10 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ok, so not to another prim, to someone's inventory
[11:11 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: that makes more sense
[11:11 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: no to a prim
[11:11 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: prim to prim, how?
[11:11 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: destination can be a prim
[11:11 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Ohhm never knew you could do that.. kk
[11:11 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: neither did I
[11:11 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlGiveInventory
[11:12 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: would think that could be a griefing vector
[11:12 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: destination prim has to be droppable?
[11:12 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: if not mod
[11:13 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: in fact that is kinda impleis by the allowdrop
[11:13 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: implied i meant
[11:14 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: really from that wiki, allowdrop should only be relevant for attachments
[11:14 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: but it is like that *there*
[11:17 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I am curious about the prim to prim drop with llGiveInventory -- If you transfer a script with this feature, is script running turned off in its target, and require taking/rezzing to run? (like it does when copying between prims in same linkset)
[11:18 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well i did not went check all the details :)
[11:18 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ok I will have to test :)
[11:18 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: just did change the permission check :)
[11:21 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: not sure how useful that prim to prim is.. abut well a old thing it seems
[11:21 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Two prims exchanging a notecard back and forth neither wanting to hold on to it
[11:22 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Could always throttle that to only allow one per second
[11:22 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: brb
[11:22 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: llGiveInventoryList might require more than one/sec
[11:22 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I think it might have been used for a sort of messaging system back in the day where notecards were distributed to prim based inboxes
[11:23 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: possible
[11:23 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: in-world mailboxes
[11:23 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes
[11:23 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: same sim
[11:24 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: a feature I never used! I'm curious but doubt I have a use for it
[11:25 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and how are you viewers goin on? gavin ? joe ?
[11:25 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: (your.. going..)
[11:25 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I published new builds of the preview and new version of the Mac viewer toda
[11:25 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: catchup and optimizations
[11:25 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: nice
[11:25 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: pbr?
[11:25 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no :-)
[11:26 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:26 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm back
[11:26 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for some reason people seems to download the no PBR versions for SL use in the hudreds
[11:26 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hundreds
[11:26 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Gee I wonder why
[11:27 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeah SL seems to had allowed FS to bypass the 3 versions rule for the 6.6.17
[11:27 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ( no idea why ll has any word on that.. but wahtever )
[11:27 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Gavin's viewer is more up to date than 6.6.17 and without PBR.. a good combo
[11:27 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: feature parity
[11:27 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: mb they add it to the tpv rules?
[11:27 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: bug* parity
[11:28 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[11:28 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:28 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: License overreach imo, ungrateful at best
[11:28 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Given the work tpv tend to input as well fixing ll bugs
[11:29 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: judging from the forums people seems to be a bit miffed with the whole PBR thing atm
[11:29 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: How dare they xD
[11:29 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: as usual ll just went fw as soon they had something doing something
[11:30 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: broke enviroments? buy new ones... great for business
[11:30 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: investor pressure
[11:30 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yes... "see.. we're competing with Unity"
[11:31 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Spoken like a mobile game dev boasting about ditching flash player lol
[11:31 AM PT] Lyr Lobo smiles
[11:31 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: lol
[11:32 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:32 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well seems they are doing another try to reduce load...
[11:32 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The only thing that I actually like about the pbr changes is the change in color palette which should bring some better color management and clearer text, but that can be had without ugly/slow mirrors
[11:33 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: mirrors now now off by default
[11:33 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: are..
[11:33 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yep
[11:33 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Seems the llWater in the PBR viewers has reflections even with reflections off". It's really pretty
[11:34 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and at start the viewer does downgrade the settings to try to hide the impact
[11:34 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I don't really get how they managed to get it to perform this badly given you can do mirrors on a bloody N64
[11:34 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ( at first start after using 6.x or even fs release )
[11:34 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I never quite understood this mirror obsession
[11:35 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ofc now.. you are not a woman :P
[11:35 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ooops
[11:35 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: and "materials" obsession
[11:35 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :_)
[11:35 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ;)
[11:35 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Reflections are nice, but you very often don't need full mirrors to get that
[11:35 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's the same nonsense with ray tracing really. Most of the time you don't notice it while the performance impact is massive
[11:35 AM PT] Joe Magarac: The mirror obsession would make more sense in a first-persion viewpoint, like VRchat.
[11:36 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes
[11:36 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: how did they justify the cost/benefit
[11:36 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: They don't need to justify anything is how
[11:36 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: wel and wait for the "gltf scene" things..
[11:36 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: LL are the kings, they are never at fault /s
[11:37 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: those will be great for performance also
[11:37 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: *facepaws* for the 100th time on pbr
[11:37 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ( and overall framework models coerence )
[11:38 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: joe, how is your voewer going?
[11:39 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Oh, hi.
[11:39 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ahh the movement issue?
[11:39 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Currently struggling with rubber-banding issues.
[11:39 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: oh? :(
[11:40 AM PT] Joe Magarac: An object update has a position and a velocity, and I'm overshooting slightly and then jerking back when connected to OS.
[11:40 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Looking at logs to try to figure out what's different from SL.
[11:41 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: checked the packet order thing?
[11:41 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I can change the walking speed modifiers on your sharpview regions, maybe that creates a change that leads to a solution
[11:42 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and/or multipath (??)
[11:42 AM PT] Joe Magarac: No, don't mess with that, please.
[11:42 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: i don't .. its a udp thing :p
[11:42 AM PT] Joe Magarac: I'm not re-ordering packets to put them in sequence.
[11:43 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: i did sugest to put a check to see if it does happen
[11:43 AM PT] Joe Magarac: That's not the problem, though. I've tested in clean situatoins.
[11:43 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: This is happening any time there is movement and not just when crossing a sim boundary?
[11:43 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well im sure it does happen.. just not all the time
[11:43 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Yes. ordinary motoin.
[11:43 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: as I metioned last time the apr library is used for network io by the viewer. Not sure what capabilites are configured for that
[11:43 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Sim crossings work better, actually, because just put in the fix I put into Firestorm years ago.
[11:44 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Let me look at the logs some more. I may need to put the updates into a spread sheet.
[11:44 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well put a packet order check and warning...
[11:44 AM PT] Joe Magarac: The whole point of the UDP system is that packet order shouldn't matter.
[11:45 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: this is ll, haha
[11:45 AM PT] Joe Magarac: do the SL viewers re-order based on packet serial number.
[11:45 AM PT] Joe Magarac: ?
[11:45 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and you think ll did read the manual??
[11:45 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: the prococol does depend on packet order
[11:45 AM PT] Joe Magarac: I am very aware of that. I do tree-ordered reordering for parent and child objects, of course.
[11:46 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: so put a test to see how severe it is.. if any
[11:46 AM PT] Joe Magarac: This is failing with properly ordered packets. My bad, not the network.
[11:46 AM PT] Joe Magarac: More next week.
[11:46 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and i do think ll does a limited reorder
[11:46 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: on viewers..
[11:46 AM PT] Joe Magarac: I've been busy in RL.
[11:46 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: but not sure
[11:47 AM PT] Joe Magarac: I do two major re-order things.
[11:47 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Packets that come in for a region before the region is fully live are held until all the handshaking is complete.
[11:47 AM PT] Joe Magarac: And orphaned objects (parented, but parent not known yet) are held until the parent is complete.
[11:48 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: some maybe from the last time you where there :p
[11:48 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: yes seen that LOL
[11:48 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ( udp does not have TIME:WAIT)
[11:49 AM PT] Joe Magarac: If the region disconnectes, I drop all that.
[11:49 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: some maybe on ther wire.. but well rare
[11:49 AM PT] Joe Magarac: If you run Sharpview and open the developer performance window, you can watch the regoins go through their state changes from "Discovered" to "Live".
[11:50 AM PT] Joe Magarac: When you've been out of range of a region for a while, the simulator tells you to disconnect from it. At least in SL.
[11:50 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Takes about 15-30 seconds.
[11:51 AM PT] Joe Magarac: How does OS do that?
[11:51 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: guess a bit faster..
[11:51 AM PT] Joe Magarac: OK. Not a problem.
[11:52 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: on tps it does it even faster
[11:52 AM PT] Joe Magarac: TPS?
[11:52 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: hmm on arrival...
[11:52 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: teleports
[11:52 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Oh, distant teleports are different.
[11:53 AM PT] Joe Magarac: That's essentially a login.
[11:53 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: on walking around.. well guess a little dealy and distance histesis
[11:53 AM PT] Lyr Lobo: By distant, you mean within the grid or external to it?
[11:53 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Distant here means that, before the teleport, it wasn't within draw distance.
[11:54 AM PT] Lyr Lobo: ah so even within a region if the draw distance is smaller
[11:54 AM PT] Joe Magarac: There are three cases for teleports, 1) same region, 2) nearby already-connected region, 3) non-connected region.
[11:54 AM PT] Joe Magarac: 2) is more like a region crossing.
[11:54 AM PT] Joe Magarac: 1) is just a move
[11:54 AM PT] Lyr Lobo: great, thanks
[11:55 AM PT] Joe Magarac: 3) is like a login - cold start
[11:56 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Isn't there a #4 (HG teleports)
[11:57 AM PT] Joe Magarac: HG?
[11:57 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hypergrid
[11:57 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Teleporting between grids.
[11:57 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Oops. Don't support that yet at all.
[11:57 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Have to relog.
[11:58 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Actually, that is a relog.
[11:58 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: np. I know I seldom jump between grids that way.
[11:58 AM PT] Lyr Lobo: We do it quite often
[11:58 AM PT] Joe Magarac: You're switching to a new login server.
[11:58 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: We are coming up on the hour. Does anyone have a question/comment they have been waiting to ask/say?
[11:59 AM PT] Lyr Lobo: Yes
[11:59 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks looks for any raised hands
[11:59 AM PT] Lyr Lobo: Just a comment
[11:59 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Lyr. Go ahead.
[11:59 AM PT] Lyr Lobo: We are working on the https://conference.opensimulator.org/ website for the 12th Annual OpenSimulator Community Conference December 7-8, 2024.
[12:00 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: It is currently under construction as the new information and Call for Proposals comes online
[12:00 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: Will be up in the next couple of weeks *smiles*
[12:00 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I hope you are keeping it viewer and operating system agnostic.
[12:00 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Yes.
[12:00 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Gotta go.
[12:01 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: Bye Joe
[12:01 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: tc Joe
[12:01 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: The Call is not out yet, but will be due October 21, so we will be posting it in the next couple of weeks
[12:01 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Joe. See you next week.
[12:01 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: many thanks... done with my announcement
[12:01 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: Have a great week! *grins*
[12:01 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you, Lyr. Best ofluck to the people working on the web site change. It is often a lot more work than it seems at first.
[12:02 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: See you next week, Lyr.
[12:02 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: Yes, it is, Frans Charming is handling it
[12:02 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Any other last minute questions/comments?
[12:02 PM PT] Lyr Lobo: Yes, see you next week. *waves*
[12:02 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks waves back
[12:02 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: bye
[12:03 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: If there is nothing more for today I will call this gathering to a close.
[12:03 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
