[11:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:01] Andrew Hellershanks: I hope you all had a good Christmas and New Years.
[11:02] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: happy belated new years to everyone...
[11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: I was spending time with the family last Tuesday after lunch and forgot the meeting. The PDA that helped remind me when my mind was on other things died earlier in the year.
[11:04] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Wonderful
[11:04] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: the family time, not the PDA fail
[11:04] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:04] Ubit Umarov: lol
[11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:04] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Happy New Year, Motoko! *cheers*
[11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: "Wonderful" works for both. It is all in how you say the word.
[11:04] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 laughs
[11:04] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: Thnx Lyr... wasn't sure if my chat was working.. :)
[11:04] Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com:80: I can miss meetings in spite of functioning PDAs, phones, and all the rest
[11:05] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes you "sound" great
[11:05] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: haha...^_^
[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:05] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 grins
[11:05] Ubit Umarov: there are still pdas is smartphones age?
[11:05] Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com:80: Quite clear, Motoko
[11:05] Ubit Umarov: a psion?
[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: The PDA I've been using may be old but there isn't anything that really replaces it.
[11:05] Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com:80: My old Pilot still works - I pull it out just to make sure about once a year
[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Tungsten T5. I'm looking for a "new" old one.
[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: I've gone through several. The RAM eventually gives out on me.
[11:06] Ubit Umarov: oh a palm
[11:06] Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com:80: My T5 didn't last long either
[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: At least that what it seems like.
[11:06] Ubit Umarov: think i still have a palm III somewhere
[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, mine lasted a long time. Probably about 10 years or so. Been using one for a very long time. I was on my third, IIRC.
[11:07] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: I used to have a sharp Zaurus... wasn't bad... but wasn't good either... battery life was horrible..
[11:07] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 grins and nods
[11:07] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: got more use out of a palm-pilot
[11:07] Kayaker Magic: Ohh! Remember "grafiti" the stroke to text system on the Palm? It is available as a keyboard method on the Android phones!
[11:07] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: never straying far from a charger
[11:07] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: LOL
[11:07] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: truth..
[11:07] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 chuckles and nods
[11:08] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: stupid gestures...
[11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, I used the hand writing recognition on the Palm all the time.
[11:08] Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com:80: I actually used it for a very short time on my first Android
[11:08] Ubit Umarov: well you had no other option :)
[11:08] Kayaker Magic: I loved it and was happy to get it on my phone.
[11:08] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: graffiti... if I remember right
[11:08] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 grins
[11:09] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: altered my writing style... few times I submitted hand written papers with graffiti text on it...
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: i droped my palm breaking the touch glass
[11:09] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: ouch
[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: The T5 and other later models had pop up keyboards or you could use writing. They got better about not needing the special grafitti later on.
[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Jamie.
[11:09] Kayaker Magic: LOL, yes, the whole point of Graffiti was to teach the human to write a font that the computer could recognize easily.
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: a few years later a friend foun a replacement in germany, not exactly some model but worked
[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: but i just repared it and nver used
[11:10] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: where I used to work..they eventually gave us rim/blackberries... with what we liked to call the kidney-poker
[11:10] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: kidney-poker == antenna
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: ohh think i did repared it again some 3 yrs ago
[11:10] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: hehe
[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: a cap died
[11:11] Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: hi everybody
[11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: If that is all that was wrong it is easily fixed.
[11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Looks like we have most of our regulars here now. Time to get in to what's been happening with Open Simulator.
[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Not too much in the way of code changes this past week, for obvious reasons. One mantis (#4092) has some attention.
[11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: That change was for the llStopAnimation LSL function.
[11:14] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Mostly cleanup stuff, closing out old issues that are no longer relevant or impossible to test given the information provided
[11:14] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I did get around to testing though, which unearthed what I feared, the latest mariadb version is not working with OpenSim
[11:15] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: From the error message some cast error somewhere, but likely in the connector itself so very difficult to pinpoint
[11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, is there a particular error message that is thrown when using OS with latest MariaDB?
[11:15] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Similarly postgres is also still broken in latest mono and potentially in dotnet6 as well, so the database connectors are getting to a point where they might start to break entirely
[11:16] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: It's in the mantis 9050
[11:16] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Some dbnull cast thing, no idea what that is yet
[11:16] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: 10.7 was the version I tested before and that works fine so far, but 10.10 won't
[11:17] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: The entire database interface starting with OpenSim.Data all the way to the actual connectors is in dire need of some love
[11:17] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Not only slow, but especially in regards to groups, just poorly conceptualized code relying way too much on code rather than clever sql
[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: I ran in to a different issue where an update to the newer version of mono broke two other programs that I used to use. They will no longer run.
[11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, yes. The groups database structure seems particularly in need of some help.
[11:19] Kayaker Magic: What is the difference between mariandb and regular MySQL? I assume regular MySQL on Linux still works with OpenSim?
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: oops let me read
[11:20] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I have not tried mssql or mysql directly. Mariadb did offer some features back in the day that allowed it to be safer than mysql
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: kayaker
[11:20] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Something with table engines
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: they are diferent products now
[11:20] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I just stuck with it ever since as it worked quite well
[11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: My desktop computer is still using MySQL.
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: so far the connector for mysql still works, but we may need to add one for mariadb
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: bc they are getting more and more diferent
[11:22] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: The interface depends on external libraries, connectors, that have not seen an update in probably a decade by now, those provide the necessary structures for OpenSim.Data to request and send data. The problem sits with the external library, the OpenSim.Data project itself is just bad in terms of performance of the code
[11:23] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Like groups, requesting a bunch of data with select * and then building the final data in code, which can be really slow
[11:23] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Doing some join operations and other stuff on the database end likely would help speed that up since sql is a lot faster with that stuff
[11:24] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I did start on a mariadb specific OpenSim.Data, which is just a copy of mysql so far, still dependent on that connector as well as I could not find a good connector to use
[11:24] Andrew Hellershanks nods to Vincent
[11:24] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Most of this stuff now sits in nuget and these connectors have code in them that's a bit questionable
[11:25] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Looked at this when the postgres issues were reported and it's a bit of a nightmare to put support back in
[11:25] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: We use Mariadb for Virtual Harmony, but we are not on the latest version
[11:25] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: npgsql for postgres in the least intrusive form would require two-three additional dlls to be shipped to work at all
[11:25] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Probably similar story with mariadb now
[11:26] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Lots of fast hacks in the connectors potentially unsafe stuff and all requiring various other libs to be shipped for it to build and load at all, which is really annoying to deal with
[11:26] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Plus it adds bloat and might even make stuff slower given it ships with so much stuff now
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: that mantis 9050
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: as i said, maria is getting diferent from mysql, so it may need own connector
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: that they had made for years
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: ofc that is a strange error
[11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, it is.
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: but it is internal to the connector
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: seems it got a null and still tried to read a int from it :p
[11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: Not surprising to see it choked.
[11:31] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: It would be really nice, given that postgres is kinda broken as well, to redo the connectors and the OpenSim.Data project along with it, to finally remove some of the bottlenecks and bring that code into this decade, but that's a lot of work
[11:31] Andrew Hellershanks: Seems reminiscent of a misuse of pointers as integers
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: they still say
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: "
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: MySQL Connector/NET
MySQL Connector/NET should generally work with MariaDB.
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: "
[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: I notice the word "generally"
[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: In other words, YMMV.
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: well such change may mean a complet new database code
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: not fun
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: when possible there is no gain on using maria versus oracle mysql
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: and maria keeps ignoring C# telling to use connectors made by others
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: like the mysql one or https://www.nuget.org/packages/MySqlConnector/
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: last one, will mean totally new code to use
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: so.. guess quick answer for now is that mariaDB is no longer supported
[11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: New connectors would be one of several goals for this year.
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: thinik is that maria and mysql seem to no longer be compatible
[11:38] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: 10.7 should remain available for some time, haven't tested between that and 10.10 so maybe there is another version that still works, so for a while there is still an option
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: that is what that mantis basicly tells
[11:38] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I'm not sure how well moving from mariadb to mysql will work yet, have to explore that at some point
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: well like andrew is telling, just stay on maria 10.7
[11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: I have gone from MySQL to MariaDB in the past.
[11:39] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: The annoying thing is that mariadb and mysql don't share some keywords and functions so moving between them also means other software needs to change their db integration as well
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: they are spliting more and more
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: SQL is just a name :p
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: and and about the "payload" not connector
[11:41] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: https://mariadb.com/kb/en/function-differences-between-mariadb-1010-and-mysql-80/
[11:41] Kayaker Magic: But the 'S' stands for Standard!
[11:42] Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com:80: Your Linux distributions are probably not going to include MySQL because of the historical issues with Oracle and Larry Ellison
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: this may also mean that code will not work
[11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, you know what xkcd has to say about "standards".
[11:42] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 smiles
[11:43] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: ^^
[11:43] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: I'd love to just redo the entire OpenSim.Data, use different database types for certain data structures to vastly simplify how it is stored and retrieved, but that's a mountain of work I kinda lack the time for
[11:43] Kayaker Magic: LOL, I was looking for a quivering lip emoticon when I wrote that...
[11:44] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Not sure what route to take with it, updating to patch things up or start from scratch, hard to say what's more work given the state of things
[11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: If there are underlying flaws in the current implementation it would seem the better route would be to start from scratch instead of continuing to patch something that only sort of works.
[11:47] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: We have the problem of two different types of data relations that ideally would mean usage of two database systems. Inventory, groups, avatar data as part of a document style db, since that hinges on a single uuid in most cases and then things like useraccounts and auth that make the most sense to be in a large sql table
[11:48] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: While sql has gotten a lot better about really large tables the performance metric there is something software just can't beat, it's a mathematical thing with table size
[11:48] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Document style only suffers if the routing is poor
[11:48] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Kinda like how fsassets due to being file-based is a lot faster than putting binary blobs in a table
[11:51] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: Needs a lot of planning before lines of code can be written, otherwise same mistake of poorly conceptualized code that plagues the current setup
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, indeed.
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: We are getting close to the top of the hour. Does anyone have a question or comment not related to database issues?
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: vicent
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: At least not one related to MariaDB compatibility.
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: you can try to use the mysql connector on dotnet6 branch
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: ofc may blowup also :)
[11:54] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com:8002: That's on my plans for further testing yes
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent can keep all the pieces if it does.
[11:55] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: bye all
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Bye Selby.
[11:55] Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com:80: Peace, Selby
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: cya selby.Evans
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: wel not sure if it even runs on master
[11:55] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: bye
[11:55] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: bye selby
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: can instead test a region with dotnet6
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: should work fine on a grid in master
[11:58] Kayaker Magic: Well, I've got a bunch of chores to do in RL, I'm out of here now.
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: ( master has connector 6.9.11, dotnet6 8.0.30 )
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, tc Kayaker.
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: Last call for any last minute items for today.
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: my palm III did work
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Database connectivity is going to be a big, and hot, topic for this year. We should start thinking of the best approach to solving this issue and get a plan together to fix it.
[12:01] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 grins
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, nice. My last T5 purchase was 12 years ago so it had a good run.
[12:02] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hi Janie!
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: well it is not totally outdated by any "smart"phone
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, with that I will end todays meeting. Thank you all for coming. This could be an exciting year for OS with the work on dotnet6 and database connectivity.
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: now..
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: See you again next week.
