[11:59 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:59 AM PT] Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi everybody
[11:59 AM PT] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: hihi
[12:02 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Selby
[12:02 PM PT] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: hi everyone
[12:03 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker should be here shortly.
[12:03 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: hi selby.Evans
[12:03 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ok andrew
[12:03 PM PT] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: ubit.. has my avatar fully arrived yet? :)
[12:04 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I see you fully, Motoko
[12:04 PM PT] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: ;) lol
[12:04 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Kayaker.
[12:04 PM PT] Kayaker Magic: Hello all!
[12:04 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Motoko, you aren't sitting properly in the chair
[12:05 PM PT] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: darn AO...
[12:05 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, that's better.
[12:05 PM PT] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: ok..should be fine now
[12:05 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, AOs can get in the way and often do.
[12:06 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit is looking festive with his Santa hat. :)
[12:06 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well about last week code changes.. hmm guess none ? lol
[12:06 PM PT] Kayaker Magic: Tis the season!
[12:06 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, I was about to comment on that, Ubit. I thought perhaps the changes were all confined to the dotnet6 branch.
[12:06 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Professor.
[12:07 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Have a seat.
[12:07 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: actually did fix a issue i added recently on dotnet6 uuids
[12:07 PM PT] Kayaker Magic: Oh great! "No software project is safe while the developers are working on it"
[12:07 PM PT] Professor Merryman: Thanks
[12:07 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:07 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: cuga may arrrive later.. oh just did :)
[12:08 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Cuga
[12:08 PM PT] Professor Merryman: I haven't been in OpenSim for a while. I came to connect again.
[12:08 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: cuga did some more work on Apple silicon libraries for opensim
[12:08 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: now all signed
[12:08 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Professor, np. You are welcome anytime.
[12:08 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: so i did commit those
[12:08 PM PT] Professor Merryman: Thx
[12:09 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, That's a good place to start.
[12:09 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: maybe later he tells us something about opensim on Apple silicion
[12:09 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Cuga, do you want to talk about what you've been doing recently?
[12:09 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: sure, summary
[12:09 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: A couple weeks ago I got everything working on apple silicon with dotnet6
[12:10 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: also did some minor changes usinf SIMD on the dotnet6 branch in fact some changes to commit
[12:10 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: and last week I discovered they have to be code signed, so I reuilt them with code signing now
[12:10 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: just minor performance improvements
[12:10 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: and captured all the info to build it in a README
[12:10 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: at my gothub site https://github.com/cuga-rajal/opensim_apple_arm64
[12:10 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: also
[12:11 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: we stil have a issu e with sqlite
[12:11 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I managed to set up the development chain so I can build x86_64 Mac libs in the future, if needed
[12:11 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: we kinda lost track the sources we are using
[12:11 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: right now we are using the ones from Gier
[12:11 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: last changes where done by justin back in 2012... just adding new bins, at least for windows
[12:12 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: no idea about sources
[12:12 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: but if there are future updates to the unmanaged libs, I can build those now for both x86_64 and arm64, if needed
[12:12 PM PT] Kayaker Magic: Does this help with running OpenSim on a Raspberry Pi? In 64bit mode?
[12:12 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: we also use sqlite via mono.data.sqlite, log obsolete
[12:13 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: guess we will need to redo all the sqlite code for more modern ms sqlite
[12:13 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I haven't built libsqlit3 yet, so maybe it will break if arm64 people try to use that
[12:13 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: no pi is another cpu
[12:13 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: there are bins for it there,
[12:13 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: the ones named ..arm64.so
[12:14 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: in fact it was an old blog about running OS on a pi, that gave me some of the build steps that worked for apple
[12:14 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: from 2011
[12:14 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ppl is running opensim on pi for sometime now
[12:14 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: under mono
[12:15 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: the other thing is, I found a way to build newer versions of Bullet for both x86_64 and arm64
[12:15 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: there is no mono for apple slilicon(?) but it does have dotnet
[12:15 PM PT] Kayaker Magic: But only in 32bit mode.
[12:16 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: You *can buikd 32 bit mono on apple silicon, it builds and runs fine nut it is slow, in emulation mode
[12:16 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: no osme ppl did gave us those arm64 libs for pi
[12:16 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: somewhere on mantis
[12:16 PM PT] Kayaker Magic: Cool, I'll have to try updating my PI to 64bit mode
[12:17 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: think gavin used to run opensim on 64b pi..
[12:17 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I dont expect the libs for apple silicon will work o li tho :)
[12:17 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: on pi*
[12:17 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: he alse made somework on that
[12:17 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: cuga we have arm64.so for pi there
[12:18 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ah yes ok
[12:18 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: dont remember the name of who did compile those.. it is on mantis, i think
[12:19 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: so seems opensim does run, at least on one Apple M1 ;)
[12:20 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I made a list of all the unmanaged libs also, to help clean up some of the Mac libs. The doc is a little out of date
[12:20 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: not sure how many more are outthere ;)
[12:20 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AkBDdT9xhp__N0GhclhjTyPQ3d4XnStrAIZEbHlo97w/edit#gid=0
[12:20 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: again.. runs the dotnet6 branch.. not master, ofc
[12:20 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: that gives some helpful info to cean up un-needed libs
[12:21 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well i did clean some already
[12:22 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: people involved in other architectures might want to look that over
[12:22 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: lastly, I developed a method to build newer versions of Bullet, and have been trying out 2.74(trunk), 2.86 and 3.25
[12:22 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: that build method is also described on https://github.com/cuga-rajal/opensim_apple_arm64
[12:23 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: there are a couple of patch files that seem to be needed on the Mac side
[12:23 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: then 3.25 was suposed to be a bigger change back then
[12:23 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: but thing some work was on using GPU on the collisions pipeline etc
[12:23 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: to be honest I don;t see any difference in my physics use cases between the versions, but I haven;t tested much
[12:23 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: something not that usefull for us
[12:23 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: The newer versiopns added a bunch of stuff we don;t use
[12:24 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: but there might be bug fixes in the parts that we do use
[12:24 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: most girds run regions on servers that have basic cpus
[12:24 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I was able to build x86_64 versions of newer Bullet versions too, for Macos
[12:24 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: datacenter machines with gpu are very very expensive
[12:24 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: perhaps my method will work for Linux too
[12:25 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Bullet 3.x has the option to acce;erate calculations with the GPU, but there are other differences too
[12:25 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: so not sure if any big gains on those newer bullet versions
[12:25 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: newer versions support threading
[12:25 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: maybe Robert will look and update :)
[12:26 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: all did support threading one way or other
[12:26 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ah ok
[12:26 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: in fact bullet by default runs on own thread here
[12:26 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: much depends on the glue too
[12:26 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ie its main thread
[12:26 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: and most those improvements where considering games
[12:27 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Its nice to know that there is a path to building them now
[12:27 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: whether or not they are needed
[12:27 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: physcis running on the game desktop machine, using 150% of its resources
[12:28 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well glad we do have a path with dotnet6, that even allows opensim to run on a new paltform
[12:28 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: in fact i did run it on dotnet7 even
[12:28 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: just by odd ms design it uses a lot more memory
[12:29 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: like 150MB more memory here just at start
[12:29 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: with no visible gain
[12:29 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: but... wel it does run..
[12:29 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: thats great news for future-proofing
[12:29 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: seems ms decide to waste a lot of memory on new GC tables
[12:30 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeha the mono dead end was worring me a lot
[12:30 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ofc we did lost Xengine.. etc
[12:30 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, annette
[12:31 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It is truly disgusting how MS killed mono to the point they don't even update their releases anymore
[12:31 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Bought, gutted and dropped like a hot potato, as is tradition
[12:31 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hi Rhiannon!
[12:32 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Rhiannon
[12:32 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well will lose when we change to dotnet6 on main disto
[12:32 PM PT] Bill's Chair: This is Bill's Chair
[12:32 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: Ohh something reminds me about oscc :)
[12:32 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Rhiannon, that chair is reserved. You need to pick a different one.
[12:32 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 laughs
[12:32 PM PT] Rhiannon.Chatnoir @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: sorry, things were still loading
[12:33 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: this one?
[12:33 PM PT] Kayaker Magic: Aybody know how Bill is doing?
[12:33 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: welcome Lyr and RHiannon.Chatnoir
[12:33 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes. I was going to mention that the OSCC starts in a few days.
[12:33 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: Bill got lost in that ugly grid called RL
[12:33 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I wondered. Have been worried about him.
[12:33 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: even left irc
[12:33 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Lyr
[12:33 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello *grins* so good to see you
[12:33 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I hope Bill is doing ok. He hasn't been here in quite some time.
[12:34 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: last time we spoke, he found other hobbies on that ugly rl thing
[12:34 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[12:34 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: That happens.
[12:35 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: So Rhiannon.Chatnoir and Lyr care to say something about oscc ?
[12:35 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, That's what I was about to ask.
[12:35 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: It is Dec 10-11 with a celebration beginning on the 9th and events continuing the week after it
[12:35 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 chuckles
[12:35 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: great minds!
[12:35 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Cuga, sorry about earlier. I gave you the floor and didn't realize Ubit wasn't finished talking about something.
[12:35 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: no worries
[12:36 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: We begin at 7 am on Saturday with the Core Developer Spotlight
[12:36 PM PT] Rhiannon.Chatnoir @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: sure, OSCC = OpenSImulator Community Conference and is this weekend!
[12:36 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: pardon me, Cuga. We can shift back to your time *smiles* I am delighted to be here
[12:36 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: oh spotlight?? hmm hope not a very strong and hot light
[12:36 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 laughs
[12:36 PM PT] Rhiannon.Chatnoir @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: https://conference.opensimulator.org/2021/schedule/ is the schedule
[12:36 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm glad I'm not in the west cost time zone. I wouldn't be up at 7am.
[12:37 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I'm not a morning owl either
[12:37 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well it is winter.. but those arc lights where very very hot
[12:37 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 chuckles
[12:37 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: glad im on the other side of lake and that is mid afternoon :)
[12:38 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Thats RL 7am for me, I'll be in my pajamas
[12:38 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Was the OSCC grid updated to use a more recent version of the OS code from last year?
[12:39 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Here is a copy of the schedule for everyone. It lasts about 12 hours *laughs*
[12:39 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: for each conference day
[12:39 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: think they are still on something
[12:39 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: and workshops include evenings
[12:39 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: like 0.9.1.0 ?
[12:39 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: or 9.1.1
[12:39 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, that is reasonably recent.
[12:39 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you for the schedule, Lyr.
[12:40 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: We were updating and had two delays
[12:40 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: You are most welcome.
[12:40 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I like to see the main conference days at a glance
[12:40 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: For anyone reading the log of this meeting via the Office Hours part of the opensimulator.org wiki page the OSCC schedule can be found at https://conference.opensimulator.org/schedule/
[12:42 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I see the Core Dev panel with the VIPs is just a half hour long again this year.
[12:43 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: It is always interesting to hear how people have been using Open Simulator and what other related projects are being worked on.
[12:44 PM PT] Rhiannon.Chatnoir @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes, and new updates or things coming, I know Ubit has shared great work in the past
[12:44 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I was just having a quick look through the first day and see a panel about a new viewer being worked on that I had not heard about before now. That will be an interesting panel.
[12:45 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: How was the attendance from last year? Any early indication of the expected attendance for this year?
[12:45 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: We are looking forward to Mister Blue's session.
[12:45 PM PT] Rhiannon.Chatnoir @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes, always interesting what gets submitted
[12:46 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Misterblue isn't here today so we can't grill him for any hints about his talk on Saturday.
[12:46 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:46 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Rhiannon does a recap at the end of the year on the attendance, both registered and hypergrid
[12:47 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I'm too late to submit for this year, but I recently got OS going on apple silicon machines and did some work on newer Bullet versions
[12:47 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: There are also people who may be watching the live stream of events. I don't know if it is easy to include those number in the attendance figures.
[12:47 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: could be rolled into someone else's recap
[12:48 PM PT] Jagga Meredith: I'm working on firing up a Mastodon server/instance specifically related to opensim. Has anybody else got one going? Also, a developer has approached me about single signon- specifically the oauth2 protocol. Is that the kind of thing they would be discussing at interoperability workshop?
[12:48 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Cuga, If you want to write up some short announcement we might be able to include that information during the Saturday Keynote or at the VIP session.
[12:48 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I'll do that Andrew, thanks
[12:49 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Cuga, yw
[12:49 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Jagga, I don't know what is a Mastodon server. I thought Mastodons were extinct. ;)
[12:49 PM PT] Jagga Meredith: twitter replacement
[12:50 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Oh. I ignore twitter.
[12:50 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's a bit like torrents meets social media
[12:50 PM PT] Professor Merryman: Do you happen to know if any of the presentations will touch on Learning Management System integration (Canvas, Moodle, Blackboard)? I would love for SLOODLE to come back also.
[12:51 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Few systems out there now more popular with twitter being driving into the ground at lightspeed
[12:51 PM PT] Jagga Meredith: OK, I'll keep slogging
[12:51 PM PT] Rhiannon.Chatnoir @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Andrew, you mean keeping track of the OSCC folks watching online, YouTube has good stats on how many folks watch
[12:51 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, I know what is twitter. I still tend to ignore it as mostly pointless.
[12:52 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Rhiannon, they do. I think I missed last years announcements about the attendance so I don't know if you included the YouTube figures.
[12:53 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Since Google days OpenSim hasn't really had a great open community for people to find, most of the social media is now locked away unfindable, so much good information lost due to google
[12:54 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hm... another panel that sounds interesting is the use of 3D environments for soft skills training.
[12:55 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: A couple of panels on content creation followed by several music events.
[12:56 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: The OSCC always has an interesting mix of casual use and more serious uses, such as for education.
[12:56 PM PT] Rhiannon.Chatnoir @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I can always look at those YouTube numbers if needed Andrew,
[12:56 PM PT] Jagga Meredith: Vincent that's why I'm thhinking Mastodon. Servers are silo'd by topic. Some really good tech people on the two I'm on.
[12:56 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Rhiannon, np. I was asking mostly out of curiousity.
[12:56 PM PT] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: bye all
[12:56 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Bye, Selby.
[12:56 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: cya selby thanks
[12:56 PM PT] Rhiannon.Chatnoir @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: and those numbers keep increasing over time of course, happy to share whenever
[12:57 PM PT] Professor Merryman: Bye Selby
[12:57 PM PT] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: bye selby
[12:57 PM PT] Rhiannon.Chatnoir @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: we would love as much of the core devs as we can be there on Saturday opening
[12:57 PM PT] Rhiannon.Chatnoir @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: take care Selby
[12:58 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I will be there for the morning Keynote (if I get up early enough), and the VIP session. I've been having some late nights so I'm getting up a bit late in the AM of late.
[12:58 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Wonderful!
[12:59 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: We are just about at the top of the hour. Does anyone have any last minute questions or comments for today?
[12:59 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Speaking of education. I started tracking a new issue this week. A setup for language learning using play money to simulate purchasing things reports that scripts are losing their debit permissions. I did some tests and found givemoney failing silently, which points to the scripts losing the uuid of who the debit permission is granted to. Have yet to figure out if this is a parsing issue with the state files or if it is lost during runtime. Have to add some debug output to get more info, will file mantis when I have some concrete or a fix.
[12:59 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I had a technoical question before we adjourn
[1:00 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Cuga, ok. Let's finish with Vincent then you are next.
[1:00 PM PT] Rhiannon.Chatnoir @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I emailed out also to Crista, Melanie, Mr Blue in hopes they can be there
[1:01 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Oh I got nothing more really, too early to point at anything yet, just wanted to mention in case anyone has something similar. It seems to show up entirely randomly as well. Course I always get the difficult bugs to solve as usual.
[1:01 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, if it is a state file issue, you can remove the state files and see if starting compiling the scripts solves the issue. If it only occurs after a region restart it could be a problem parsing the state file.
[1:02 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: It does sound a bit odd.
[1:02 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Keep us posted. You can always talk about your progress and findings on IRC before this meeting comes up again.
[1:03 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Need to do some digging and testing, hopefully have something before the year is out heh
[1:03 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Well, the year is rapidly coming to a close so you don't have a lot of time left. :)
[1:03 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Cuga what is your question?
[1:03 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Go ahead, Cuga.
[1:04 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: SL has a suite of new lsl functions, https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlLinksetDataWrite
[1:04 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: cuious if anyone here looked at
[1:05 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: to add to OS
[1:05 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not gonna happen most likely
[1:05 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: not a priority item of course :)
[1:05 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's a really bad way of handling something that
[1:05 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Complete mess
[1:05 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: haha ok
[1:06 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: thats all I had
[1:06 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Ubit and I been looking at that wondering what they were smoking
[1:06 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: That page includes mention of a new event type in addition to the various functions.
[1:06 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeah
[1:06 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: We actually have something on mantis on scripts saving data for themselves, of course not portable or on linkset
[1:06 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: i did not add them.. bc .. not nice
[1:07 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: did look like 3 times already and gave up :p
[1:07 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: some are jsut bad..
[1:07 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: whatever..
[1:07 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: From a quick look at the page it appears to be some way to handle key/value pairs. I don't immediately see the point in SL having added them.
[1:08 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Combining them will merge at random suggesting some sort of unordered dictionary, but on output you can define indexes suggesting they are being sorted so why can't they be for merging? It makes no sense and regex for the data, yeah that's asking for trouble
[1:08 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: The name is also a bad choice. Saying linkset is going to make people think of it having something to do with a set of linked prims.
[1:08 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well ppl claim for some precistan script storage since ever
[1:08 PM PT] Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: have a great week yall
[1:08 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: bye Jamie!
[1:08 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Jamie. Thanks for dropping by.
[1:08 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: the only we have is object description.. far from nice
[1:08 PM PT] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: bye jamie
[1:08 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yeah it is reaay weird. not something I expect to use
[1:09 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If people really want to save data use the prim description, it can store quite a lot of data if you format it properly
[1:09 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ( wee we have the json thing for ages.. )
[1:09 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Some of those functions can be done via the use of strided lists.
[1:09 PM PT] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: =)
[1:09 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: so ll add that givint like 64KB storage ( inc key size) per linkset
[1:09 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I can see how they might have thought it can be used for serializing objects and locking that data with a password
[1:09 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: not really
[1:10 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: that is a store per linkset
[1:10 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: so can be used for some kind of distribution control beyond the platform spec
[1:10 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: shared by all its scripts
[1:10 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, ok. Still possible but becomes more complicated as it would require communicating between scripts using linked messages.
[1:11 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: my issues are about implemetation and performance costs of some of the things they added
[1:11 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: There might some niche cases where the feature is useful. I can't think of one off the top of my head.
[1:11 PM PT] Professor Merryman: Thanks all. Need to get back to RL stuff. Hope to see you at the conference.
[1:12 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: fun they added password per pair to protect it
[1:12 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: but any script can delete all the store
[1:12 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: duhhh
[1:12 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Professor. take care.
[1:12 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: cya Professor
[1:12 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 waves to Professor Merryman
[1:12 PM PT] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: bye professor
[1:12 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: they do store the keys on somehte that has no order..
[1:13 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'd much rather see a value store per script and functions to request that data from another script via the script name or something. Course that means storing the values on the script assets causing a lot of asset spam potential. Though the same would be true for storing it on the sceneobject, every copy you take from a region would need its own asset then
[1:13 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Cuga, I would say from the response that it is unlikely to see those functions implemented in OS any time soon (if ever).
[1:13 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: then have a function to return a by order indexed list
[1:13 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: Duhhh
[1:13 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I agree its kind of a mess, and usefulness in OS questionable
[1:13 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Right
[1:13 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: also on unlink/relink they do a inconsitent mess
[1:14 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, most likely using a Dictionary.
[1:14 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ofc
[1:14 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have yet to run out of space on prim description for most stuff I need to save, can just add another prim as a database if needed as well
[1:14 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: dic is the the think doe key/value pairs that need fast retrival
[1:14 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: How much data are they handling and sharing that this becomes a better option than that
[1:15 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well i could add part of that.. but gave up :p
[1:15 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: a lot of scripted things use the Name and Description in prims to hold stateless information
[1:15 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: so I guess this is an attempt to provide a better way
[1:15 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I've run out of space in a script. I have a couple that are too large for SL to handle without thinking of any data they use.
[1:15 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well the use of name and Desc is ofc a bad hack
[1:16 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: for stateless it is the onky option, at least in SL
[1:16 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ossl might have better ways
[1:16 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: already
[1:16 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: and so so many ppl forget that scripts should be for small fast things
[1:16 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: not huge processing things..
[1:16 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Cuga, I have used that but the information has only been needed by a script in the root prim and not across the entire linkset.
[1:17 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Having a complete unknown list of variables that could potentially be merged with others making all manners of stuff break is somehow better than storing on prim description... is this an alternate universe I have entered?
[1:17 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: scripts are to make doors to open and close :)
[1:17 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: the linkset is usd only bc they need to store more than 2 items
[1:17 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ah haht they do not store on a linkset.. like everything they store on the root prim..
[1:18 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: so a fun mess if ppl starts unlinking and linking..
[1:18 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yep
[1:18 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: their rules on that are bonky
[1:18 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: More you look at it the less sense it makes
[1:18 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[1:18 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ofc not making as they did, is same as not making at all :p
[1:18 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I can see how no-mod items might use this for serialization, for content creators
[1:19 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: when there is no risk of unlinking
[1:19 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: bc no much point if there is no compatibility
[1:19 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: but to be compatible with that is silly.. so i did no code :p
[1:19 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Kitely store people might want to use it
[1:20 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: kitely store? that is a external thing
[1:20 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: but should wait for then to pund on the door first
[1:20 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: How would someone with a store make use of it?
[1:20 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: give items serial numbers that are locked with passwordfs
[1:21 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well it is usefull.. just pretty ugly in the implementation details
[1:21 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: but i dont think that option is something they are going to be clamoring for
[1:21 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: not worth the time
[1:21 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: wel and the change event is fun also
[1:21 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Cuga, that might be a possible use case.
[1:22 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I suspect thats why SL added it
[1:22 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: on linksets with 1k prims
[1:22 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: In SL that may work, but in OpenSim with data and code at hand, nothings safe
[1:22 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: agree
[1:22 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: god mode
[1:22 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ppl ask for something like that since ever
[1:22 PM PT] Orbert.Tatham @hg.zetaworlds.com: SQL mode, too
[1:23 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: we do have that json store for similar uses
[1:23 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: just.. yeack.. complex an heavy also
[1:24 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: SL trying to drown a dumpster fire in gasoline hoping to put out the fire
[1:24 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well i never used it :)
[1:24 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well you can put out a fire with jsut gasoline
[1:25 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: if you manage to take all o2 out doing that .. :p
[1:25 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: They put out oil well fires with dynamite.
[1:25 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: oops forgot pt game
[1:26 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: let me go see last minutes
[1:26 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: have fun ppl
[1:26 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: pt game?
[1:26 PM PT] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: cya ubit
[1:26 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: soccer
[1:26 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: world cup
[1:26 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, ok.
[1:26 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Oxygen in that analogy being the people that can't write scripts without such a function
[1:26 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Well, it is almost half past the hour. Time to wrap up the meeting.
[1:26 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: bye Ubit! Thank you all, for a great meeting
[1:26 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: its 30min past hour
[1:26 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: Thnsk for your visit Lyr :)
[1:26 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you Rhiannon and Lyr for the OSCC update.
[1:27 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: and rhiannon.Chatnoir
[1:27 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 grins and waves
[1:27 PM PT] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: looking forward to oscc on saturday...
[1:27 PM PT] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: cya all later
[1:27 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I'm heading out too..
[1:27 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: hope to see you saturday.. hmm or een friday
[1:27 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Have a great week!
[1:27 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. Hope to see some of you this weekend during the OSCC. See you this time next week if not before.
[1:27 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes *grins*
[1:27 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Rhiannon and Lyr thanks for dropping by.. see you this weekendd
[1:27 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Friday, noon, live music
[1:27 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: bright and early :)
[1:27 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: *waves*
