Chat log from the meeting on 2021-02-02

[11:03] Ubit Umarov: hi
[11:03] Kayaker Magic: Hello ll!
[11:03] Kayaker Magic: *All
[11:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew
[11:03] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi Andrew
[11:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I am going to reboot the server tomorrow morning for a new kernel, Ubit
[11:03] Kayaker Magic: Whew, I can't type with that Heavy Metl music turned up....
[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:03] Ubit Umarov: ok gavin.Hird
[11:04] Now playing: Sabaton - Purple Heart
[11:04] Ubit Umarov: what heavy metl ?
[11:04] Now playing: Sabaton - Purple Heart
[11:04] Kayaker Magic: the music stream on this region was playing something heavy a minute ago
[11:05] Ubit Umarov: u call that heavy? gezz
[11:05] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: I vote for Mozart
[11:05] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: good for thinking
[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: It keeps stopping. I listen to the music I have sitting on my hard drive.
[11:05] Ubit Umarov: just modern mozart :p
[11:05] Kayaker Magic: Dontcha know, listening to classical music makes you smarter!
[11:05] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: that explains it...
[11:06] Ubit Umarov: duhh who whats to be smarter
[11:06] Ubit Umarov: smarter is bad
[11:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: overrated
[11:06] Ubit Umarov: dumb ppl is happier
[11:06] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: peeps hate smart
[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: I wonder who said "Strong like Bull. Smart like streetcar." :)
[11:07] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: I want y'all to look upon my rigged mesh subsized skirt that takes c.2006 Arcadia clothing
[11:07] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: with awe and amazement
[11:08] Ubit Umarov: stange kimono
[11:08] Ubit Umarov: strange
[11:08] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: Arcadia Asylum was a strange artist
[11:08] Kayaker Magic: I was amazed! BOM at it's best!
[11:08] Ubit Umarov: not quiet japonse cartoons
[11:09] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: BoM has some very quirky quirks. but is a good thing
[11:09] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: nope, old Nancy comics from the 50's
[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: I recognize the cartoons in the skirt texture but don't remember which comic that is from.
[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: ah, that's it.
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:10] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: and Johnny Hazard on teh sleees
[11:10] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: sleeves
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:11] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: Peanuts on the butt. Sense of humor, our Arcadia
[11:12] Kayaker Magic: OpenSim question: How are images stored in the asset server? As JPEG2000? What are they converted to in an OAR?
[11:13] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: ouch very good question, one I want to know too
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: viewer decided format
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: that is jp2k yes
[11:14] Kayaker Magic: In an OAR are the JP2K blobs converted to HEX text?
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: thats xml crap
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: not hex.. base64 encode
[11:14] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi steevi
[11:15] steevithak x: howdy
[11:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi steevi
[11:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: isn't the oar just a tar file?
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: tar file is a collection of files :p
[11:16] Kayaker Magic: Yeah, but the tar file is full of XML
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: so yeah a ton of xml files on it
[11:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I seem to remember renaming the extension and untarring it
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: yes it is tar or tgz
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: but tar is a collection of files.. remember?
[11:17] Kayaker Magic: Ubuntu desktop just opens OARs like they were folders!
[11:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it depends
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: glued for tapes :p
[11:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[11:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we had a customer who thought commercial backup products where too expensive
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: loved the retension times
[11:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so he write his own backup scripts and ran them happily for 2 years
[11:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: till the day he really had to restore
[11:18] Kayaker Magic: I know how this is going to end...
[11:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it turned out he really only had taken backup of the catalog structure,
[11:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so he could see everything he had lost
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: ( tar means Tape Archive btw )
[11:19] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: that's a sad story
[11:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yep indeed
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: yeah
[11:20] Kayaker Magic: Ha! Tapes never kept up with hard drive technology, they were always too small too late.
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: tapes where backup thingies
[11:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they are still used as backup thingies
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: well and the large ones the main long duration store
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: if you are like a bank or so :)
[11:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there are a lot of businesses and government type institutions that have to keep backup for 10 yars by law
[11:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: some even longer
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: yeah
[11:24] Kayaker Magic: NASA discovered that all the 7" reel-to-reel tapes from the early space probes had the oxide flaking off the mylar.
[11:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: then you have some folks who think backups are for the peasants
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: if you want long term.. right on rocks :p
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: grr WRITE.. gezzz
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: funny clay also worked
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: or papire..
[11:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you manage to make it too the moon, it should not exactly be rocket science to have tapem maintenance routines in place
[11:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: tape*
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: if you don't care about duration write on a ssd :p
[11:26] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: lol
[11:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or CD
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: yeah cd also bad
[11:26] Kayaker Magic: Paper actually does have a good record of long LONG term storage of information.
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: home recorded cd or dvd
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: most i had are dead
[11:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it does, but it has a tendency to go up in flames very badly at times
[11:27] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: I was one of the unfortunates who used Second Inventory to get stuff out of SL. Before I managed to get it all on my HD they went out of business. Commercial ain;t always the way either
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: well so did papire at alexandria lib
[11:27] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: yup
[11:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: SI
[11:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I think LL was taken off guard by that one
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: digital are the least durable things
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: media don't last.. and worse formats don't last
[11:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but the oldest house I have in Opensim (from 1998) was copied over with SI
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: well guess not worse.. just as bad :)
[11:28] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: lotta artwork only exists in digital form, visual, audio, literary
[11:28] Pius Noel whispers: hello all
[11:28] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: hi everyone
[11:28] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi Pius
[11:28] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi Selby
[11:29] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Pius, Selby
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: well look to old movies
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: so many now lost
[11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Selby.
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: ( well those where very flamable also )
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: hi
[11:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: very
[11:30] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Nitrocellulose
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: wlel guess only solution is keeping digital data flowing from one storage place to other
[11:30] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: yes
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: and several formats
[11:31] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: like the medieval monks making copies, only faster
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: yeah kinda :)
[11:31] Kayaker Magic: with fewer transcription errors
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: some where not actual errors.. but hmm adaptations..
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: a woman did something?? nahh a man did
[11:32] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: yup.
[11:32] Ada.Radius @grid.kitely.com:8002: politically correct at the time
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: well like all history
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: we only get the current political correct history
[11:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: history is written by the winners
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: yeap
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: well abot opensim
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: not much code
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: hm made ossl object teleports work on phatom prims
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: don't remember why i didn't allow it bf
[11:35] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Oh -- good to know
[11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: Some code changes were made this past week related to the handling of the maturity bits for classified ads. I also updated the add on search and profile modules to improve their handling of the maturity flags.
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: made some fixes on llpasstouchs (again)
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: remeber those and passcollitions are NOT as SL::.. but as OLD sl
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: yeah a minor issue with matury on classifieds ( whatever those are :p )
[11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: (mantis 8854 and mantis 8856)
[11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: The bit handling changes were to address old viewers that still used deprecated bits for the maturity level and also in case a database had ads in it that used the old bits.
[11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, if OS is using OLD SL for those functions we need a note in the wiki to point that out or some person who tries to use those functions will be scratching their head thinking they aren't working right.
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: sure.. add lsl to our wiki :p
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: but yeah there should be something..
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: a few lsl functions are not as current SL intencionaly
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: like those
[11:46] Pius Noel: what about telehubs on var regions, should the work?
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: they should be working
[11:47] Pius Noel: ok, so I will test tomorrow... they did not work for me this morning
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: well they are tricky :p
[11:47] Pius Noel: I had spawn points ;)
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: first need to learn how to
[11:48] Pius Noel: often people dont set spawn points
[11:48] Pius Noel: ... and they work for me on normal regions
[11:50] Pius Noel: I have one on a small parcel on my Welcome region to allow Set Home to Here
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: Not add the whole thing. A note in the list of the ll functions we support should be sufficient (for anyone who thinks to look there).
[11:52] Pius Noel agrees
[11:54] Pius Noel: but sometimes it might be difficult to update if SL functions are changed
[11:54] Pius Noel: who should take care?
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Not sure.
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: yeah ll did change several in time
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: ( like those =
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: It gets tricky when SL changes the behaviour of their LL functions.
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: If a person is writing a script from scratch the would test it and find behaviour different from that of the LSL wiki pages. If someone just copies a script from SL they can expect it might not work.
[12:02] Pius Noel: most of my scripts I've taken from SL to Opensim do work... if not, I usually find the issue fast. The first thing to do is to check if it's supported in Opensim at all.
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: guess LL will break a lot of contents
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: well like did break those "tvs" that did depend on flash etc
[12:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you can't make an omelet without braking some eggs
[12:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: breaking*
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Pius, when copying scripts from SL to OS be sure to check "top scripts". Some scripts may appear to work but it doesn't mean that they are written properly.
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: yeah
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: but we are not SL..
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: on some LSL we may not follow them, for example
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: well lsl and other things
[12:05] Pius Noel: a lot of content that has been copied lost it's scripts because they were not legally copied
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: in fact BOM; EEP where "Pushes" to keep compatibility with tpvs
[12:06] Pius Noel: but sure non of my vehicle script works here
[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: I also have a couple of vehicle related scripts that don't work here and I haven't worked on making them work.
[12:07] Pius Noel smiles
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: yeah old ode was bad for vehicles :p
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: err
[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: One of the scripts I was going to rework to use KFM.
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: the ossl object teleport still does not work on KFM
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: can be made 2 but takes work..
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: well and i still didn't finish the changes i made to kfm
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: What changes are pending re: KFM?
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: also don't understand current sl ping-pong mode.. seems totally broken
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: oh i told about those months ago
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: now i forgot LOL
[12:11] Pius Noel: ping-pong mode?
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: well changed all its math etc
[12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: ping pong mode. I remember that. AFAIK, it means run through the KFM steps first to last then go from last to first, and back again until told to stop.
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: yeah.. does a mess i just can't understand at sl
[12:12] Pius Noel: ah, yes. ty.
[12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: It would be useful for things like a KFM based swing.
[12:12] Pius Noel: me too
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: so our current is not like sl, neither will be the revised one
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: ours does make sense ;)
[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: It was good enough that I was able to make a working carnival ride.
[12:14] Pius Noel: I'll let you know if I miss something :)
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: as i said i changed its math
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: and how it is done..
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: not timer based, but done by heartbeat thread etc
[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Nice way of doing things.
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: stopped bc had serielization issues with current format
[12:15] Kayaker Magic: Our KFM works MUCH BETTER than the SL one. Thanks to Ubit!
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: current does store a special table
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: new version does math on the fly...
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: so... yeah.. issues on crossings to other versions
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: well things like that
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: have to code on my pc, not commited :)
[12:17] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: guess it will not make 0.9.2 release
[12:17] Pius Noel: :(
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: current code seems doing ok
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: so i may even just give up :)
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: welll not the timers part
[12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: You can always shove the code over into its own branch in case you want to look at it again someday.
[12:19] Ubit Umarov: yeah
[12:20] Andrew Hellershanks: We are 20 past the hour. Any other pending questions from anyone re: OS?
[12:20] Kayaker Magic: I don't know if ping-pong mode is used much, you can fake it by building a list that loops.
[12:20] Ubit Umarov: the ossl obejct teleport needs to talk directly to kfm code
[12:21] Ubit Umarov: to stop it.. etc like on crossings
[12:21] Ubit Umarov: or if local to offset it blabla
[12:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, and duplicate the steps in reverse order.
[12:21] Kayaker Magic: Yup
[12:22] Andrew Hellershanks: hm... I did test ping pong mode some time ago when I was first starting to work on something that needed KFM.
[12:22] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll see if I can find the test script I was using.
[12:23] Pius Noel: me too, but to duplicate the steps for reverse order sounds good enough
[12:23] Andrew Hellershanks: It would be a workaround to ping pong mode at the expense of more steps in the code.
[12:24] Ubit Umarov: i can mk ping poing work
[12:24] Pius Noel: and probably simpler to implement and understand
[12:24] Ubit Umarov: just i don't get what it is at sl :)
[12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Is it different in SL from our use of it in OS?
[12:24] Ubit Umarov: ping poing ? :)
[12:25] Ubit Umarov: yeah it is already diferent
[12:25] Ubit Umarov: guess ll did just broke theirs
[12:25] Ubit Umarov: dunno
[12:25] Andrew Hellershanks: That's possible.
[12:26] Ubit Umarov: current ll no longer cares much about not brekaing contents
[12:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or TPV viewers
[12:27] Ubit Umarov: yeah those also
[12:31] Andrew Hellershanks: It is half past the hour now and no one has said they have to leave, yet. I'm a bit surprised. :) At any rate, it is about time to wrap up the meeting for today.
[12:31] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:31] Pius Noel: :)
[12:31] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
[12:31] Pius Noel: thank you all