Chat log from the meeting on 2020-09-22

[11:00] Ada Radius: Hey Andrew
[11:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew
[11:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:01] Kayaker Magic: Lively crowd so far....
[11:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yeah
[11:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Leighton
[11:02] Ada Radius: I just dropped my mouse and now it's cranky
[11:02] Ada Radius: Hi Leighton
[11:02] Leighton.Marjoram @youcantfixstupid.wtf: Hi Gavin and Ada
[11:02] Leighton.Marjoram @youcantfixstupid.wtf: howdy to everyone :)
[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Leighton
[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm going to start things off this week with a question for Ubit.
[11:06] Kayaker Magic: Go!
[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, You made a recent change to only store map image asset on local cache. The commit message said it "will break viewers v1 map, osGetRegionMapTexture(), etc".
[11:08] Bill Blight: he then turned it off by default ,
[11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: I have a scripted gadget that uses that osGet function to retreive region map tiles. Is there some work around for this change to allow maptiles to be retrieved?
[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill: ok, good to know.
[11:09] Bill Blight: http://opensimulator.org/viewgit/?a=commitdiff&p=opensim&h=0877c00658df13ccf52a0aa9676e1ca4733db4f0
[11:09] Bill Blight: commit where he turned it off by default
[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm not sure if the FS viewer is still using a v1 map or not. Breaking script functions doesn't sound good if the feature is turned on.
[11:13] Kayaker Magic: Ubit? Are you really there?
[11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Doesn't appear to be with us right now.
[11:15] Kayaker Magic: Has anyone used the new language extentions? switch, case, try catch?
[11:15] Kayaker Magic: I just noticed them, when were they added?
[11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: In terms of activity this week, Ubit has made some changes to YEngine and also made some changes to the wiki pages.
[11:15] Kayaker Magic: I assume they are only in YEngine.
[11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Have those features been made available for YEngine?
[11:18] Kayaker Magic: <crickets>
[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, have you tried them? AFAIK, they are extensions for XMREngine but are not (yet?) part of YEngine.
[11:19] Kayaker Magic: Nope, I have not tried them yet. Just noticed the wiki changes about them last week.
[11:20] steevithak x: Here's the updated wiki page showing what ubit has added http://opensimulator.org/wiki/YEngine
[11:20] Bill Blight: switch
break
continue
try catch and finally
constant
short circuit AND and OR
[11:21] Bill Blight: are in Y
[11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: I didn't notice the commit message stating they were added to YEngine.
[11:21] Bill Blight: they just have never been documented
[11:21] Kayaker Magic: I noticed the example usage of try/catch was to recover from a failed OSSL function, something I have tried to find a way to do in the past.
[11:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Popstar!
[11:25] Arielle Popstar: Hi Gavin
[11:25] Arielle Popstar: hey all
[11:25] Kayaker Magic: Welcom Arielle!
[11:25] Arielle Popstar: anything new and exciting?
[11:25] Kayaker Magic: It has been a quiet meeting so far.
[11:25] Arielle Popstar: oh nothing broken this week?
[11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Arielle
[11:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: wb Ada
[11:27] Ada Radius: ty!
[11:27] Arielle Popstar: Hi Andrew
[11:27] Arielle Popstar: Hi Ada
[11:27] Ada Radius: Hi Arielle
[11:28] Kayaker Magic: WB Ada
[11:29] Arielle Popstar: so whats going on?
[11:29] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not much my end
[11:30] Kayaker Magic: We were talking about the language extensions to YEngine
[11:30] Arielle Popstar: read you got the rlv in?
[11:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the rlv in?
[11:30] Arielle Popstar: in your viewer?
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: (hi ppl )
[11:30] Arielle Popstar: thought i read that in the logs from a few weeks back
[11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it's been in the windows version all the time, but currently not in the Mac version
[11:31] Arielle Popstar: Hi Ubit
[11:31] Kayaker Magic: WB Ubit!
[11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: actually it is a separate download so people can have a RLV free viewer
[11:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: evening Ubit
[11:32] Arielle Popstar: ohh kk
[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: wb, ubit
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: yes kayaker i did add a option to not upload map image asset
[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: Checking the history I see the extra scripting features were added in February.
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: and doing that does break several things
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: gezz u typed a lot in 30min
[11:33] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:34] Arielle Popstar: was he doing the placeholder thing?
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: and yes, tried to ad some documentation about Yengine
[11:37] Kayaker Magic likes the new documentation in the Wiki
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: even the orange and red parts?
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes. People might even read those parts. :)
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:39] Arielle Popstar: is there a spellchecker on the wiki edit ?
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: i have a person, that will do it in time :p
[11:41] Arielle Popstar: ohhh nice!  :)\
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: and what news do have about opensim ?
[11:42] Arielle Popstar thinks hard
[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, I started with that but you weren't here.
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: oops :)
[11:44] Arielle Popstar: whats the news on the opensim developer end?
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: i made chahttp://opensimulator.org/wiki/Scripting_Documentationnges also on
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: err
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: i made changes at http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Scripting_Documentation also
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: added orange and so
[11:45] Arielle Popstar: what does Documentationnges mean?
[11:45] Kayaker Magic: It means fumbly fingers
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: the paste ended up on the wrong place :)
[11:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: copy pasta error
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/OSSL_Implemented
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: old things, but there was no doc
[11:47] Arielle Popstar: so thats exclusively for the new scripting thingamabob?
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: most is
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: also thingamamarley
[11:49] Arielle Popstar: spreading permissions for them over 3 different ini files?
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: you count well congrats
[11:49] Arielle Popstar: isnt that a bit confusing?
[11:50] Arielle Popstar: surprised you didnt count :)
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: as text tells, same login as opensimdefaults.ini and opensim.ini
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: err some logic
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: even same
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: yeack
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: -> as text tells, same logic as opensimdefaults.ini and opensim.ini
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: nad yes kayaker try catch should allow a cleaner way to detect ossl permission error
[11:53] Bill Blight: Have a good day I need to bail ..
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Bill.
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: thhink i had said that some time ago on a mantis
[11:55] Kayaker Magic: Yes, but back then I assumed language changes were not an option.
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: this things where on xmr, just waiting some cleanup
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: scriptexception was not there.. i did add is now
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: etc
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: there are a few more things actually in code
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: but i don't like most of them
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: i may just delete them
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: What things?
[11:57] Arielle Popstar: so some are now on by default? "so now many are always allowed wasting no time on useless checks."
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: and try a diferent approch to add some features
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: not by default
[11:58] Arielle Popstar: says always allowed
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: scripts need to add the line yoptions;
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: you are talking about yengine or ossl ??
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: That will flag a script as needing YEngine.
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: yes and enables those things
[11:59] Arielle Popstar: I'm looking at that page as a server admin trying to get an idea of what i need to do to have my residents scripts work
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: well what page?
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, what is wrong with the scripts of your residents?
[12:00] Leighton.Marjoram @youcantfixstupid.wtf: I need to head off to prep for another meeting
[12:00] Arielle Popstar: i am talking in a what if instance Andrew
[12:01] Leighton.Marjoram @youcantfixstupid.wtf: bye for now and see you all again next week
[12:01] Leighton.Marjoram @youcantfixstupid.wtf: :)
[12:01] Arielle Popstar: is the documentation sufficient for me to sort out the issues my residents might have
[12:01] Ada Radius: bye Leighton tc
[12:02] Kayaker Magic: It has always been true that a server admin has to edit the ini files to enable/disable OSSL functions for their users.
[12:02] Kayaker Magic: What must a server admin do to enable new YEngine language features?
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: about ossl, yes i did change the old decision of having permissions on all funtions
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: no sense on things like osMin() etc
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: OSSL is our set of extensions.. that also means short and fast things
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: need to enable Yengine Kayaker
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: that info is there
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: then features is per script
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: line with yoptions; at start as text tells
[12:06] Arielle Popstar: so the new ossl features are not backported to X-engine?
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: ossl is same for Y and X
[12:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002 is changing sort order to asc
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: ( and nothing that new on that.. think those changes where already on 0.9.1.1
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: just nothing on wiki
[12:07] Arielle Popstar: nods
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: and one thing is ossl, other is yengine features
[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: It will get interesting when people start using scripts with the YEngine extensions then start travelling the hypergrid.
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: that is why it is a optional feature and per script
[12:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: traveling the hypergrid is already interesting...
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: those who do not update, will not have it
[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: True, Gavin.
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: like will not have eep, even bom or animesh
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: nothing new on that
[12:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or the stuff you need in suitcase
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: No. Nothing new on whether a grid that has updated to 0.9 is using X or Y engine.
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: well some things there will need 0.9.2
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: as i said exception type scriptexception i just did add it
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: sure could be done with just exception..
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: but it is safer to only catch scriptexception
[12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: That will be useful when a region is using Y. If it is still on X it will cause a different kind of exception to be thrown. :)
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: yeah :)
[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: We are now a quarter past the hour. Any last items for today?
[12:15] Arielle Popstar: all good here
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: did fix a little bug or 2 also
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: during last week
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: and made a few changes to "internals"
[12:16] Arielle Popstar: uhm
[12:16] Arielle Popstar: what sort of internal changes?
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: internal :p
[12:16] Arielle Popstar: ^^
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: ie how things are done,
[12:17] Arielle Popstar: in what regard?
[12:17] Arielle Popstar: uploads?
[12:17] Arielle Popstar: permissions?
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: no
[12:17] Arielle Popstar: loading?
[12:18] Arielle Popstar: throttles?
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: how things are done.. reduce amount of temporary objects allocations.. etc
[12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, Ubit is referring to code cleanup. No change in function. Just nicer looking code.
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: saving peek memory use, and cpu
[12:19] Ubit Umarov: actually one commit is "make it ugly" LOL
[12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:19] Ubit Umarov: that means i did not care about some silly things ppl say abotu code style etc
[12:20] Ubit Umarov: like fields should be internal to classes, only properties exposed
[12:20] Ubit Umarov: thats BS
[12:20] Ubit Umarov: i do it when matters.. do not when it is folish
[12:21] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[12:21] Ubit Umarov: and also made some code a bit harder to read, bc that gens a bit faster code
[12:22] Ubit Umarov: that was the meaning of "ugly" on that commit
[12:22] Arielle Popstar: .0000001 ms?
[12:22] Arielle Popstar: faster?
[12:22] Ubit Umarov: or less :p
[12:23] Ubit Umarov: but time.. adds up :p
[12:23] Ubit Umarov: each microOp not needed is waste
[12:24] Kayaker Magic: Yeah, an infinite number of infinitely small wasted instructions adds up to modern bloatware.
[12:24] Arielle Popstar: if S/L closes tommorrow, what would you consider for new Opensim features?
[12:24] Ubit Umarov: bahh don't tell me about modern soft
[12:24] Arielle Popstar: lol@ Kay
[12:24] Ubit Umarov: its so bad
[12:25] Ubit Umarov: specially c# and .net
[12:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Swift for Windows was announced today, so now you can rewrite in server Swift
[12:26] Ubit Umarov: somehow it got into many programmers than memory is cheap, and cpus are fast
[12:26] Ubit Umarov: so they use totally unnecessary memory
[12:26] Ubit Umarov: some type on blogs like, a 10% performance improvement does not matter
[12:26] Ubit Umarov: bahh
[12:27] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, I've thought about how people should be forced to learn to program on machines with (very) limited resources before being let loose on big machines.
[12:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ... when a 1 MB rack of core cost $1.5M
[12:27] Ubit Umarov: yeah
[12:27] Ubit Umarov: c# strings totally irritate me lol
[12:28] Ubit Umarov: a c# char is utf16
[12:28] Ubit Umarov: that means at leat 2 bytes
[12:28] Ubit Umarov: when all or chat here used one byte letters
[12:28] Ubit Umarov: all our..
[12:29] Ubit Umarov: and utf16 has problems
[12:29] Arielle Popstar: i ran my first diva distro in 2009 on a P3 with 512MB ram
[12:29] Ubit Umarov: c# string lenght does not count real characters
[12:29] Ubit Umarov: because some need 2 of such char
[12:30] Arielle Popstar: and 1MB down and 600 KB up
[12:30] Ubit Umarov: utf16 was a very poor choice
[12:30] Andrew Hellershanks: I needed to add UTF-8 support to a program and had to be switching between that and unicode for some char/string related operations. :P
[12:30] Ubit Umarov: on .core they are thinking adding a trye utf8 string type
[12:30] Arielle Popstar: so my i7-7700 with 16GB of ram and 1GB pipe should be capable of that and a few region more
[12:30] Ubit Umarov: i actually already did add it.. osString
[12:31] Ubit Umarov: now used to parse notecards and a few other things
[12:31] Ubit Umarov: wel it is not only c# ms made that on win also
[12:31] Arielle Popstar: should code be more efficient so i can run 2 servers on my P#?
[12:31] Ubit Umarov: win uses uft16 also i think
[12:31] Arielle Popstar: P3
[12:32] Arielle Popstar: crickets :)
[12:32] Arielle Popstar: ok i am off
[12:32] Ubit Umarov: and stupid garbage collector.. same idea
[12:32] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Arielle.
[12:32] Arielle Popstar: thx for the meeting
[12:32] Ubit Umarov: memory is cheap.. no need to free things
[12:32] Kayaker Magic: Bye!
[12:32] Arielle Popstar: waves
[12:32] Andrew Hellershanks: We are at half past the hour now. Good time to wrap up the meeting.
[12:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: bye Arielle
[12:32] Ubit Umarov: cya
[12:33] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.