Chat log from the meeting on 2020-09-08

[11:19] Ada Radius: speaking of
[11:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: mine today where meow downstaits.. till i did ear the sound fo something falling and breaking
[11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:19] Ada Radius: Hi Andrew
[11:19] Bill Blight: Howdy Andrew
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: no more meow.. called them.. silence
[11:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: oh,
[11:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: crushed?
[11:20] Ada Radius: whatever they wanted, they now have
[11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe... the cats are probably hiding if they have just knocked something over.
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: went see, found them very calm looking to me like inocent angels
[11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: I had the cleaners arrive at an inconvenient time. It threw off my noticing the time.
[11:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hehe
[11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, now you have to look around and see what they knocked over.
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: a survivign jar survived no mora
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: no more..
[11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: They know how to get your attention.
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: already sent its pieces to trash :)
[11:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I once woke up by the bang of a painting with a very heavy frame falling off the wall. It crushed the table below in the fall.
[11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: What were you talking about before I arrived besides cats.
[11:22] Bill Blight: Ubit breaking terrain updates
[11:22] Bill Blight: LOL
[11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:22] Ada Radius: dead poets and sex
[11:22] Bill Blight: I like Ada's topic better
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: the things you have in your mind Ada
[11:23] Ada Radius: artist, plead guilty
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: well we can skip the dead poets part :p
[11:23] Ada Radius: not that I actually feel guilty...
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: they are dead anyways..
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: oh well
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: and what is ne won opensim?
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: and new
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: err
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: and what is new on opensim?
[11:24] Ada Radius: Kayaker and I are delving into the mysteries of avatar creation, c. 2005
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: yeah no idea what tools they used
[11:25] Ada Radius: trying to come up with a plan. They used a version of Maya that no longer exists.
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: bet those formats do match those tools
[11:26] Bill Blight: Howdy Selby
[11:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Selby
[11:26] Ada Radius: Kayaker is decoding the llm files, I am working on a better model, thinking about armatures and UV mapping, and helping him with vert counts and duplicate verts re the existing vert maps
[11:26] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: hi everyone
[11:26] Leighton.Marjoram @youcantfixstupid.wtf: Hi Selby
[11:26] Ada Radius: Hi Selby
[11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: In the past week there have been several changes related to mantis reports. Some updates were made for warp3d.
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: we have a partial decoder on libomv
[11:27] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Selby.
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: thing does not do morphs
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: think
[11:27] Ada Radius: the system av only uses morphs, AFAIK
[11:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not for height
[11:28] Ada Radius: but morphs are easy to make, I think we can deal with that
[11:28] Ada Radius: right not for height
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: well yeah the change to warp3d was also a bug fix
[11:28] Ada Radius: or the mBone driven sliders
[11:28] Ada Radius: I hope
[11:29] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the original rigging all are affected by sliders afaik
[11:30] Ada Radius: problem on the viewer side is that there was an original system - pos, with pivot superimposed on that, then they started letting mesh attachments use volume bones, then Bento on top of that.
[11:30] Ada Radius: without cleaning up anything.
[11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they would be shouted down by a thousand content creators if theh changed old behaviro
[11:31] Ada Radius: and based on old Maya. One obvious change will be to switch to opensim Blender, and one thing needed will be a better dae exporter
[11:31] Ada Radius: I'm thinking about it - I am one of those content creators. If we do it right, then all they'd have to do is rename vertex groups. If we really do it right most people will want the system avatar
[11:32] Bill Blight: would love to see us move away from collada and more toward something like GLTF
[11:32] Ada Radius: me too.
[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: What is GLTF?
[11:32] Bill Blight: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GlTF
[11:32] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I am for GLTF, too
[11:33] Ada Radius: https://www.khronos.org/gltf/
[11:33] Bill Blight: it was kind of created to replace collada, or that was the thinking
[11:33] Andrew Hellershanks: Oh, a JSON based (inefficient) format. At least it should be easy to parse.
[11:33] Ada Radius: We'll have to get Kayaker's insights on how difficult a transition that would be. He's still hoping for incremental change.
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: json is almost as bad
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: that just kills it
[11:34] Bill Blight: GLTF 2.0 is an entirely different animal
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: no one will use it
[11:35] Bill Blight: MS is using GLTF
[11:35] Leighton.Marjoram @youcantfixstupid.wtf: WebXR is going in that direction
[11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that should disqualify it
[11:35] Bill Blight: LOL
[11:35] Bill Blight: Like it or not, MS sets a lot of the standards
[11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which only works on Windows
[11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: Like their "standard" for their document format. :P
[11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: usually they take a standard, tweak it to not run elsewhere and call it a standard
[11:36] Bill Blight: Apple is also using GLTF so :P12:45, 8 September 2020 (PDT)12:45, 8 September 2020 (PDT)~
[11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Apple is a complete mess right now
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: when even gpus are made to bypass cpu and decode things directly from disk.. ppl keep wanting to use stupid human readable formats
[11:37] Leighton.Marjoram @youcantfixstupid.wtf: chuckles 2 of the worst examples
[11:37] Bill Blight: May be the worst examples, but at the same time, the WILL set the standards even if many don't like it
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: ms does not make any standard on that
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: major gamming houses do it
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: or cad houses
[11:40] Bill Blight: if MS says, "this is what we will use" most will at least adopt it , even if they don't make it a standard
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: that makes FBX the defacto standard now
[11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that depends if it can be licensed
[11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Apple as an example, don't use certain MS stuff because MS don't want to license it
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: ( and fbx as a ascii format yeack )
[11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: wonder if anyone uses it
[11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: There are so many different file formats for 3D models.
[11:42] Ada Radius: I had to learn about it for Substance Painter > Unity
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: ytes 0 - 20: Kaydara FBX Binary \x00 (file-magic, with 2 spaces at the end, then a NULL terminator).
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: gezz long magic :)
[11:43] Bill Blight: I'd be happy if we supported FBX too
[11:43] Bill Blight: LOL
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: https://code.blender.org/2013/08/fbx-binary-file-format-specification/
[11:43] Ada Radius: summary: suks
[11:43] Bill Blight: I like the GLB format which is GLTF binary, everything in one neat file, images and all
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: seems fbx keeps having lic issues
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: but ppl use it :)
[11:45] Ada Radius: Or try to avoid it if I can. I keep running into stuff in outdated FBX format that nothing can read.
[11:45] Ada Radius: someone hands me something - hey can you fix this.
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: "
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: he intent of the license is this. You can build applications that read, write, manipulate FBX data. You can distribute these products as you see fit. However in the 2009.1 release we add this clause.

2.4 You shall place the following statement in the copyright area of (i) the on-line documentation regarding the Developed Software, (ii) the End-User License and/or terms of use for the Developed Software, (iii) the ‘About Box’ or similar notice page of the Developed Software and (iv) any other document related to Developed Software that contains copyright information:
"This software contains Autodesk® FBX® code developed by Autodesk, Inc. Copyright 2008 Autodesk, Inc. All rights, reserved. Such code is provided "as is" and Autodesk, Inc. disclaims any and all warranties, whether express or implied, including without limitation the implied warranties of merchantability, fitness for a particular purpose or non-infringement of third party rights. In no event shall Autodesk, Inc. be liable
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: indirect, incidental, special, exemplary, or consequential damages (including, but not limited to, procurement of substitute goods or services; loss of use, data, or profits; or business interruption) however caused and on any theory of liability, whether in contract, strict liability, or tort (including negligence or otherwise) arising in any way out of such code."

In the prohibited section the restriction is that you cannot repackage and distribute the SDK without our written consent. You cannot claim the SDK to be your own, that is what that clause prevents.
"
[11:45] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: virtual machien with a version of the program that can read it
[11:45] Bill Blight: FBX old and outdated, sounds like a prime candidate for opensim . . :P
[11:46] Ada Radius: ROFL
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: :p
[11:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: opensim does not have any old and outdated :-O
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: so fbx is free to use now as long it tells autodesk everywhere :p
[11:47] Bill Blight: Welcome to 3D importing 2001
[11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: Well, that text isn't correct if someone writes their own code to do something with the FBX format. The code wasn't developed by Autodesk.
[11:48] Bill Blight: writing something to use a format, a licensed format, does end up being covered under the license, because of having to "unpack" that format ... Welcome to the DMCA
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: Even if you can import a file in to a modelling program there is still the issue of support for the textures associated with it. That information often doesn't translate well between file formats.
[11:49] Bill Blight: Read GLB Andrew, all in one nice little package
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: well that is not a opensim issue. it is a viewer issue
[11:49] Bill Blight: That is true Ubit
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: opensim sess a totally diferent format
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: NOT COLLADA, opensim knows nothing abot collada
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: opensim meshes are NOT COLLADA
[11:50] Ada Radius: what does opensim use to translate viewer collada data?
[11:50] Bill Blight: maybe someone should write a stand alone importer for GLTF/GLB , something not a viewer
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: they are llmesh assets
[11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the viewer does the translation
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, It isn't a matter of including the files. It is being able to properly apply textures from one file format when you now have it in some other format. I remember trying to use some models made in Lightwave. I could read the files and see the models but couldn't figure out how to get all the textures reapplied to the parts of the model.
[11:51] Ada Radius: ya but if I see your avatar it went through server software
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: textures are also on a ll format
[11:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and sends it to the opensim server in the format it stores
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: basicly jp2k basic format
[11:52] Bill Blight: a change Ubit made a while back made the textures import a lot better, they mostly go to the right place
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: not the modern spec of j2k
[11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hehe
[11:52] Ada Radius: OK. so it takes the llm files from the viewer and applies dae data to it?
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, mostly?  :)
[11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which we all still use the ancient 1.5.1 openjpeg lib
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: viewer llm files are internal to viewers
[11:52] Ada Radius: and the xml data for avatar and clothing shape?
[11:53] Ada Radius: yes, in the Character folder
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: and must all be identical or compatibel
[11:53] Bill Blight: Andrew, it just depends on if the collada is crappy or devent,
[11:53] Bill Blight: *decent
[11:53] Ada Radius: half a dozen llm files for each system body part, approx
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: those are shared defines.. all viewers must agree on those
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: a outstanding case is viewerparameters
[11:54] Ada Radius: which get altered by armature, shape, texture changes, mostly from dae files
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: those are just a set of bytes.. no meanting included
[11:54] Bill Blight: maybe Ubit can make a importer that works from the console to import other formats ....
[11:54] Bill Blight hides now
[11:54] Ada Radius: so I'm not clear on what happens between the server software and the viewer software so that I can see your avatar
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: all viewers must parse the xml files to define the meaning of those bytes ( that are slider values )
[11:55] Ada Radius: yes.
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: and capped to a max of 256 grzz
[11:55] Ada Radius: OK
[11:55] Ada Radius: baked down
[11:56] Bill Blight: Viewer Imports, converts to llmesh, opensim stores as llmesh, viewer asks, opensim gives llmesh .... <is that about right?
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: Ada server basicly does nothing
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: gets data from one viewer and sends to others
[11:56] Ada Radius: ah OK
[11:56] Ada Radius: thank you!
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: all assets
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: we take from viewers and store on dbs, then give back
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe. For a moment I was wondering "what is an Ada server". :)
[11:57] Ada Radius: and all with those awful llm files
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: almost never look to contents
[11:57] Ada Radius: OK. That helps
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: as i said those llm are internal to viewers only
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: they are preloaded local assets??
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: precooked?
[11:58] Ada Radius: ya. They're what Kayaker is translating. They are Maya based, for the Characters
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: call it what you want :)
[11:58] Bill Blight: This is one of the reasons many people blame the server for "perceived lag" , when you have 50 billion pieces of heavy mesh, all the server does is give them to your viewer .. .Your viewer is choking on it ..
[11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: a server that can interprete Ada?
[11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_(programming_language)
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: just are local to viewers and all viewer must have identical
[11:58] Ada Radius: baked is the terminology. Usually means baked in lighting too, but not the case here
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: well there are files there for the baking process
[11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: The viewer can only unpack so much between rendering each frame
[11:59] Ada Radius: yes
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: like simple bumpmaps
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: masks etc
[12:00] Bill Blight: That is one of my pet peeves , people that think all LAG is because of the server, and not their crappy, computer/mesh/isp
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: all those lost prims where viewer lag :)
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: viewers lag and do lose prims
[12:00] Ada Radius: bunch of textures and maps for each avatar. I'm not sure what happens to the default bump maps when we override with mesh attachments that have normal maps and specular maps, but I assume it's all loading. Wasteful, nothing to be done until there's a major viewer change
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: or parcel patchs
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: not sure.. bom mesh has own rendering on bakes
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: but didn't look
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: think mesh defined material does work
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: at least the alpha mode
[12:02] Ada Radius: bom mesh is an improvement in terms of efficiency, but is still slapped onto an antiquated mess
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: ppl should replace the default blend to avoit the alpha bug
[12:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: All is loading Ada. Even the default avatar "brain" which most people think it is, but is actually the hair.
[12:02] Ada Radius: yes
[12:02] Ada Radius: yup
[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: I read about a trick to avoid the alpha bug. It would be better if the bug could be fixed in the viewer.
[12:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: someone commented the most popular mesh avatars in SL actually have brain mesh. It is never shown, but still must be loaded and hidden by the renderer
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: well not using blend mode is one
[12:04] Ada Radius: it wasn't standard practice for humanoid characters even in 2005. Now it;s laughable. Topology, UV mapping, armature, default textures, the volumes, all of it
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: replaced by alpha mask.. no alpha bug
[12:05] Ada Radius: if you can't avoid the alpha clipping, a tiny bit of glow fixes it
[12:05] Ada Radius: more or less.
[12:05] Ada Radius: but fiddling with the new alpha options is a huge improvement for avatars
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: alpha on hair and clothes is terrible
[12:06] Ada Radius: ya
[12:06] Ada Radius: and adds a lot to av complexity
[12:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is not particularly good on regular mesh objects either
[12:07] Ada Radius: it takes some designing to avoid it, but it's doable, except for things like hair and foliage
[12:07] Ada Radius: that's where a little glow can help
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: in old sl days a 3d pro arrived to sl and seen houses with prims do define windows etc
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: and told we where all very silly.. windows are just texures
[12:08] Ada Radius: ya, because of the prim limits on land
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: so made a demo house with only texture windows
[12:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you can't open a tature window
[12:08] Ada Radius: we had to do everything with textures, and if we wanted to see through them, alpha for windows
[12:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: texture*
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: you can imagine the result with the alpha bug :p
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: I have seldom seen window textures that look good vs. prim windows.
[12:08] Ada Radius: yup
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: total fail lol
[12:09] Ada Radius: now we can make window frames with mesh
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: well think now using alpha mask does fix that
[12:09] Ada Radius: that are more efficient than tortured prims
[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: I made a series of windows as sculpties.
[12:09] Ada Radius: I think I remember those
[12:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have window meses made in 2013 for sale both on Kitely and SLM
[12:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I think I also have some free on my grid
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: We are getting close to the end of the hour. Does anyone have an OS related topic that they want to ask before we wrap up the meeting for today?
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: om im some told me people believe parvels eep causes lag
[12:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: There should be a new viewer version out tomorrow
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: and parcels eep
[12:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if the damned RLV version would not be so particular
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: we seen a region doing freezes for on second even
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: well server side, there is no reason for that
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: all those are relative fast to process server side
[12:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they complain about major EEP lag in SL
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: viewers side maybe another story.. but can't tell
[12:13] Bill Blight: most likely viewers hanging up getting a bunch of new assets for the EEP
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: seems water renderign was very bad
[12:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: particularly machines with weaker graphics are seen reduction in FPS to the extend they have to turn off features
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: well none of those things did explain the lag we seen on that region
[12:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: water is problematic too
[12:14] Leighton.Marjoram @youcantfixstupid.wtf whispers: goodbye everyone see you next week
[12:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: bye Leighton
[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Leighton. Good to see you again.
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: i did several parcel crossings on a parcel that had own env on that region
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: and no relation with the lag spikes
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: not one that i could see
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: i think that region case was scripts..
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: but can't tell
[12:15] Bill Blight: only time I personally see anything related to that is if I land, and immediately cross into a parcel, but it is just a stutter .. but oddly don't get the same thing with a tp
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: never the less viewer side code is... well lets say not very fast..
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: by coincidence i did push a cache on encoded enviroments
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: so regions don't keep converting to to OSD then llsdXML
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: all that is now cached
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: in final bytes to send via http
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: not sure that is on this region already..
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: <cia-opensim> opensim: ajlduarte * rb0f1e4f0c69e OpenSim (2 files in 2 dirs):
<cia-opensim> waste some memory on serialized environment caching. we could live without all that locking
<cia-opensim> http://opensimulator.org/viewgit/?a=commit&p=opensim&h=b0f1e4f0c69ecdeca0bd2461fc7a19dde94f3ad3
[12:18] Bill Blight: it should be here
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: but i did that, because makes sense, not bc that was a major performance issue
[12:19] Ubit Umarov: there are heavier things happening on parcels crossing, since ever..
[12:20] Ubit Umarov: i mean region side, of course
[12:20] Ubit Umarov: so that relation btw lag and parcels eep stays to be proven ( even viewer side )
[12:21] Ubit Umarov: ll did had reports of water issues.. not sure if they did fix it
[12:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not yet
[12:21] Ubit Umarov: ok ty
[12:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is complicated
[12:21] Ubit Umarov: but thats "generic" rendering issue
[12:21] Ubit Umarov: not just parcels
[12:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes
[12:22] Ubit Umarov: well all games do even true 3d water surface.. so...
[12:23] Ubit Umarov: ll water is just play with textures bascily
[12:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Imagine the vertex count on user uploaded 3D water surface
[12:23] Ubit Umarov: oh thats more complex than that
[12:23] Ubit Umarov: has tesselation etc etc
[12:23] Ubit Umarov: and ll water is just a plane
[12:24] Ubit Umarov: games water also
[12:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: deforming the mesh in realtime
[12:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: like a propagating wave
[12:24] Ubit Umarov: but with Z displacement done by shaders or similar
[12:24] Ubit Umarov: yes games do that
[12:24] Ubit Umarov: very fast
[12:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: games are super optimized
[12:25] Ubit Umarov: yeah but its trciks on the gpu
[12:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: user uploaded content is not :-))
[12:25] Ubit Umarov: no one has uploaded water
[12:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have mesh water tiles
[12:25] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Must go -- bye all
[12:25] Ubit Umarov: games have pre defined obbjests
[12:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: with 4 layers
[12:25] Ubit Umarov: and a few options for the water model
[12:26] Ubit Umarov: unity is a case i did look ages ago
[12:26] Ubit Umarov: on more complex uses similar sum of waves model as sl
[12:26] Ubit Umarov: sl uses 2 they use 3 ??? not sure
[12:27] Ubit Umarov: but those waves also do vertex limited displacement
[12:27] Ubit Umarov: done at rendering time by .. don't remember the name.. guess not shader.. the other things gpu code has
[12:28] Ada Radius: via height maps?
[12:28] Ubit Umarov: no
[12:28] Ubit Umarov: base is still a plane surface
[12:28] Bill Blight: I need to bail, I'll leave the log running .. laters
[12:29] Ada Radius: right, in Unity you can have a height map on a plane, AFAIK
[12:29] Ubit Umarov: vertices density based on distance ( tesselation )
[12:29] Ada Radius: ah OK
[12:29] Ubit Umarov: viewers also do that
[12:29] Ubit Umarov: terrain etc
[12:29] Ubit Umarov: they do tesselation
[12:30] Ubit Umarov: or var regions would had killed them :)
[12:30] Ubit Umarov: unity water thing can be a base cube, cylinder or plane
[12:30] Ubit Umarov: that we can place anywhere
[12:31] Ubit Umarov: thing axis aligned things always
[12:31] Ada Radius: I'm a rank beginner at Unity - I've been taking courses in Substance Painter, one course used Unity as a way of viewing this stuff
[12:31] Ubit Umarov: well im half guessing now :)
[12:32] Ubit Umarov: ll model is that the simpler possible
[12:32] Ada Radius: the other element is lighting - which we don't render down becuz it's not a fixed scene
[12:32] Ada Radius: unlike Unity
[12:32] Andrew Hellershanks: We are now well past the hour mark. This would be a good time to call this meeting to a close.
[12:32] Ubit Umarov: 2 waves only on the shaders only
[12:33] Ada Radius: OK
[12:33] Ubit Umarov: well "only" lol
[12:33] Ubit Umarov: i think i did code water for unreal
[12:33] Ubit Umarov: the sl water shader define
[12:33] Ubit Umarov: not sure
[12:34] Ubit Umarov: or was thinking how to do it :p
[12:34] Ada Radius: :)
[12:34] Ada Radius: I have to go do RL. Next week! Thank you! I;m thinking a little more clearly on viewer llm files
[12:35] Andrew Hellershanks: I was just about to end the meeting for today.
[12:35] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.