Chat log from the meeting on 2020-06-16

[11:00] Ubit Umarov: hi
[11:01] Ubit Umarov: ohh no need to call andrew's cat today
[11:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:01] Ubit Umarov: hi
[11:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: do cats have phones these days?
[11:02] Arielle Popstar: hihi
[11:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew
[11:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Popstar
[11:02] Ubit Umarov: andrew's cat guess has
[11:02] Ubit Umarov: at least does read irc
[11:02] Kayaker Magic: Hi Arielle
[11:02] Ubit Umarov: well mine type at irc
[11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: My cat is sleeping on a chair. I don't think she would pay attention to any phone.
[11:02] Arielle Popstar: Hi Kayaker
[11:02] Ubit Umarov: one time a lot of talk at #opensim-dev
[11:02] Ubit Umarov: other at a im with Dan
[11:03] Arielle Popstar: she's not your receptionist?
[11:03] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi Arielle
[11:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I suppose it would trigger on the right ringtone
[11:03] Arielle Popstar: Hi Selby
[11:03] Ubit Umarov: no idea what she and dan talked about
[11:03] Ubit Umarov: text was in cat's cypher code
[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, yes. The sound of a bag of treats being shaken. :)
[11:03] Arielle Popstar: Hi Gavin, Andrew and Ubit
[11:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hehe
[11:04] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi Gavin
[11:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi selby
[11:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: have you seen those parrots talking with Alexa and turning lights on and off?
[11:04] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: SL: Total Main Grid Regions: 25,160
Linden Owned: 8, 258
25160 -8258= 16902
Is this the number of user-owned regions on the SL main grid?
Kitely grid size: 18,038
[11:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what is the population of Kitely?
[11:06] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Don't know -- much smaller than SL claims
[11:06] Arielle Popstar: whats the concurrency of kitely?
[11:06] Arielle Popstar: average
[11:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: 0.1?
[11:06] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: not reported.
[11:07] Arielle Popstar: nod
[11:07] Arielle Popstar: s/l currently around 42K
[11:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: big diff
[11:07] Arielle Popstar: not sure where they all hiding though
[11:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: last month my sales on SL has doubled
[11:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: have not do a thing with the selection since 2013
[11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, What type of items do you sell?
[11:08] Kayaker Magic: I went and bought something at your store recently myself, Gavin.
[11:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: various mesh build items - basically the same I have on Kitley, plus some wearables
[11:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: in SL?
[11:09] Kayaker Magic: Hmm, I actually forget what grid I was on. Where do you have stores?
[11:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I only have in SL and Kitely marketplace
[11:10] Kayaker Magic: Must have been SL, I walked into a 'physical' store.
[11:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so if you bought it somewhere else, I sure did not get the money :-O
[11:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have a physical store in Concinna so people can see the items upfront
[11:10] Kayaker Magic: Might have been a free item.... I also forget what I was shopping for....
[11:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have free items on XMIR
[11:11] Kayaker Magic: That sounds familiar!
[11:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: in a couple regions
[11:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Don't have a grid currency right now, so nothing for real sale there
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: so and what is new on opensim?
[11:13] Kayaker Magic: I have a question for Ubit:
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: yes?
[11:14] Kayaker Magic: I recall noticing that libomv(sp?) had a class for floating point and it used doubles, I'm guessing you fixed that after I pointed it out.
[11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Nothing much new. One code reversion and one mantis fix. Been a slow week for changes to the code.
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: libomv always had floats
[11:15] George Equus: Evening all
[11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, George
[11:15] Kayaker Magic: I seem to recall that the script engines have their own floating point class, different from the one libomv uses, unless you have unified those.
[11:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Evening George
[11:15] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi George
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: the only thing on doubles ( for no good reason) is the script api
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: rest of code uses doubles where necessary only
[11:15] Kayaker Magic: And I assume there are 1e6 places in the opensim code where someone just declared a float or a double.
[11:16] Kayaker Magic: Without using any standard class.
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: ??
[11:16] Kayaker Magic: So my question is:
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: float and double are standard
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: only lsl float is not ( its a double in code)
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: but no relation between scripts and opensim code
[11:17] Kayaker Magic: in the process of tracking down doubles and replacing them with floats, did you use one of the floating point classes? Did you unify the libomv and scripting classes to use the same floats?
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: what float point classes?
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: those are .net things
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: as i said only LSL as non standard "float"
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: in fact we define classes for all LSL types
[11:18] Kayaker Magic: I recall libomv declared something called OSfloat or some other type that turns into a float.
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: no idea
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: not i use i think
[11:19] Kayaker Magic: Yes, and there is a class for LSL floats, is the same class used in libomv now?
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: no sense on that
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: no sense on using it on lobomv
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: or libomv
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: its scripts API pthing only
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: specific to scripts.. no relation with rest of code
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: ( and we only use part of libomv)
[11:20] Kayaker Magic: You are not going to like this question, but is there one class somewhere where I can change float to double, recompile and build an OpenSim that uses doubles (almost) everywhere?
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: no
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: as i said opensim uses .net native types
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: you would need to change .net or mono
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: and die
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: bc JIT also makes assumptions
[11:21] Kayaker Magic: Yeah, not going to do THAT!
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: well about code changes
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: as andrew said, just one mantis patch applied by hand
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: but andrew didn't look to branch uglysky :p
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: when he said no code changes last week :)
[11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, No, I don't check branches.
[11:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: well its where changes are happening now
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: it will change how things look
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: some old viewers will have issues i guess
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: even current singu
[11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't know if git has a way of saying which branch(es) has received changes.
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: had a chat with liru abotu that.. lets see
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: look to our channel
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: they show up there also
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: like
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: <cia-opensim> opensim: ajlduarte uglysky r46dce3cedb19 OpenSim (2 files in 2 dirs):
<cia-opensim> speeup time update a bit ( this will be a conf option)
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: well im that on a branch because it will impact all viewers
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: ( and may be very broken )
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: when it gets into master, WL viewers may skies diferently
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: night/day relation may change
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: some over clever daycycles may not work..
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: wome viewers will stop to update things where other ppl change them
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: ( can be refreshed manuall by just open region/estate )
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: very old ones.. err no idea :p
[11:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what is very old?
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: region ubittestdt here is on that code
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: V1 viewers and pre ll WL ones
[11:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: still no viewers to see the major changes
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: cool VL kinda shows something.. but it is strange.. and does crash
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: others are still working on it
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: no betas even, that i know
[11:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: betas of what?
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: the new viewers
[11:33] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what new viewers?
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: ll is pressing all tpvs to make them
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: no i will not say the name you want me to tell :p
[11:33] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: eep viewers you mean?
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: you say it :p
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: ok you did :P
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: uglyskies things
[11:33] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: well, maybe it is premature to dive into an eep implementation on opensim right now
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: yeah like ti was for BOM
[11:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I am sure as hell not in a position to implement it
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: well
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: once that becames master, those features will be the default,
[11:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and the other guys have been sweating over it for months
[11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: good luck with that
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: wl viewers will have only the possible compatibilty
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: im here with one of those viewers :p
[11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: good for you
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: it actually works ok with old region wl
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: well this one is static sky.. so easy :)
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: so if this goes well, WL viewers will get the changed night/day relation etc
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: bc that is needed to improve time syncronization
[11:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I'll see what Apple announce at WWDC next week. If the annouce ARM based machines and axe OpenGL, it becomes rather pointless for me to still work on a viewer
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: :(
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: ll may add metal support
[11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it will take them 1-2 years if ever
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: they will need 2, to suport macs
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: thats assuming they didn't start already
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: dunno
[11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they didn't
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: well its a typical Apple bad move
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: to keep nice closed market
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: well back to opensim
[11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: probalby not bad for Apple, but it is bad for some of the existing user base
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: yeap apple only cares they keep paying
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: and they do
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: even for silly things :)
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: but back to opensim :)
[11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: iOS app devs sold wares for $5.2 billion last quarter
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: any quastion about uglysky ?
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: since it does impact all types of viewers, it needs testing on all :(
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: well wl fs and dayturn are current references
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: singu alpha has a issue i talked with liru already
[11:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but lightshare...
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: lightshare is dead
[11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so that nneds to be yanked out of the viewer
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: we shoudl had killed it long ago
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: you need it for older regions
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: but it can't be used on the new code
[11:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there you have it
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: that sends full updated
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: sending lightshare udp with its reduced wl, also, wgould be a mess
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: but no prob on having it on viewer
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: new code just does not send it
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: you will get the event message WindlightRefresh when there is a change
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: and then yr viewer will download the WL enviroment
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: ( wl viewer )
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: new viewers will have a diferent notification
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: a regionInfo packet i thing
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: or one of those
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: htat now has extra fields
[11:46] Kayaker Magic: I have a YEngine question
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: ..waiting..
[11:47] Kayaker Magic: I started getting out-of-heap errors from idle scripts again, after putting more scripted object in my region.
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: well increase the limit on opensim.ini
[11:47] Kayaker Magic: But I checked my OpenSim.ini and found I had an old value for ScriptHeapSize=256
[11:47] Kayaker Magic: and I see your recomendation is 2048 now
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: err increase on [Yengine]
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: the option is on opensimdefaults
[11:48] Kayaker Magic: I used to get heap errors a while ago and back then it was apparently a bug, not a real heap overflow. That has been fixed?
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: teh xengine one did nothing i think
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: not sure
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: i would say improved
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: can't tell if fully fixed
[11:49] Kayaker Magic: What might make it crop up again, lots and lots of scripted objects?
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: in fact now and they i wonder why we control that
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: its damm tricky thing to do, and costs cpu
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: the should be per script
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: heap and stack
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: those are per script
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: hmm about the uglyskies
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: if it works, and viewers show up and people use it more
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: WL viewers will show more strange things...
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: for example the moon
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: moon can move in its own way
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: on WL it is always on the other side of sun
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: on new, eclipses are possible
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: well even 2 suns
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: that will not work on WL
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: If you can do multiple suns and/or moons it opens up the option of making alien worlds. :)
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: for now i only see 2
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: full controls for 2
[11:54] Kayaker Magic: Do they both cast shadows?
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: one is called sun, the other moon
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: yeap they are light sources
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: already are on WL
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: don't u see the shadows on floor ?
[11:54] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the moon texture
[11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you said the other days it was already supported by OS to change it
[11:55] Object: Script running
[11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sure
[11:55] Kayaker Magic: I mean if you have 2 suns and 3 moons, can they all cast shadows?
[11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: possibly if you want to do the math
[11:56] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I suppose the isseu is how do you calculate the overall general lighting?
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: this is the new default moon
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: Light from the moon needs to be (mostly) ignored when the sun is shining.
[11:56] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I want to see the backside of the moon
[11:57] Kayaker Magic: lol
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:57] Kayaker Magic: Or the dark side
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:57] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yep
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: there :p
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: err no wait
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: there
[11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ha
[11:58] Kayaker Magic: haha
[11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there are hidden bases there
[11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and they give off light
[11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: everyone kn ows that
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: fine you mk that texture then :P
[11:58] Kayaker Magic: There must be a dark side of the moon, else pink floid would not have written a song about it
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: another proof
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: about new viewers
[11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: actually an entire album
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: no idea to what extent they will suport older opensim versions
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: this one seems working here..
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: just cant edit region enviroment
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: guess that is acceptable
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: no wy we can mk most tpv devs to add back the WL UI
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: We are at the top of the hour. Did anyone have a question/comment they wanted to make before they have to leave?
[12:01] Kayaker Magic: I'm done for today
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: there will be new invetory things
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Kayaker.
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: but those can't be tested here at osgrid for now
[12:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: At some point I am going to recompile the PI libraries for 64-bit
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: bc they need gird side changes
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: ( hmm ariellle very quiet today.. strange )
[12:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but it is kindoff flaky right now. I bricked a machine with a beta update of the eeprom
[12:02] George Equus: I'll be on my way. Thanks, always interesting listening in :) Bye.
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: have fun
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. Tc George.
[12:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Bye George
[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Is there any last comments/questions for today or are we done until next week?
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't see anyone typing so that will do it for this week. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.