Chat log from the meeting on 2019-09-03

[11:02] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Hello, everyone.
[11:03] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: What is a BoM viewer?
[11:03] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: Bake on Mesh
[11:03] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: oh, ok. I see BoM and think BOM which means something completely different.
[11:07] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Here we are for another gathering in the ongoing weekly developer meeting series. :)
[11:09] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Ubit, at the recent Kitely meeting someone commented on the difference in link and unlink speed between 0.8 and 0.9. You replied with "0.91 link does not that that time". I didn't understand the reply. Perhaps you can clarify the statement.
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: just that plugh, he claimed it takes 1sec to link a object on 0.9
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: well it may.. if 1000 prims
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: i think there was a version that did had a somewhat slow link time.. guess on mantis
[11:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: how often do you have to link 1000 objects?
[11:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and not have the time to say wait a second
[11:11] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Gavin, I didn't see it as there was a lot of stuff to read through in that meeting. I ran through it quickly.
[11:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok
[11:12] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I forget which way round it is but between 0.8 and 0.9 one is faster at linking and the other at unlinking.
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: well 0.9 still raises some funny claims
[11:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: compared to the time it takes to link the viewer...
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: lol gavin :)
[11:13] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: Why is your shirt light blue Ubit?
[11:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is his mesh alter ego
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: guess same reason face looks red
[11:14] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: yes him and Bill
[11:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: redskin
[11:14] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: we are wearing Bake on Mesh, and if you don't have the viewer you see default textures ...
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: like that little guy in central bench
[11:15] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: oh need the special viewer for this BoM version?
[11:15] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: When I can get some time I will have to see if I can get some times for linking and unlinking. It has been a while since I last looked at the SOP/SOG code. I remember noticing that the handling of the lists could be improved in a way that might reduce sending updates to the viewer.
[11:15] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: reduce the amount of updates
[11:16] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I was thinking perhaps Ubit is preparing for a role in a DC/Marvel movie
[11:16] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Bill is just a cloud to me.
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: same here
[11:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: fluffy cloud
[11:16] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: ok, now I see bill.
[11:16] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: will FS be releasing a Opensim version with BoM like s/l does it?
[11:16] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: That is what I see.
[11:17] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: he also has the same effect I see on Ubit with red face and purple arms.
[11:17] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: now Bill is rezzing
[11:17] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: he needs to do a rebake then since i bet both of you are on sing
[11:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: baked ands red faced
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: we can't tell what fs will do
[11:18] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I'm on FS.
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: or other viewers but dayturn here represented
[11:18] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: And I compiled a version of FS for the BoM
[11:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I want to support BOM, but right now there are other issues / features ahead in the queue
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: but a compiled version of fos does it as bill just said
[11:19] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: There is even a linux version for Andrew ... :P
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: fos and fs :p
[11:19] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: isnt there ways to do BoM without needing special viewer support?
[11:19] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Good to know, Bill.
[11:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I don't think so Arielle
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: Arielle No
[11:19] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: oh i know there is Gavin
[11:19] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: NOt if you want/need a viewer interface for it
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: its a viewer side hack, and not that easy
[11:19] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: it was a leading question
[11:20] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i see
[11:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we looked into the Bitbucket deleting all repositories
[11:20] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: can i see a picture of the interface?
[11:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and the issue of converting it to git
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: you mean HG ?
[11:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which is very error prone for the viewer repositories
[11:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: convert from HG to git
[11:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: as Bitbucket will delete all HG repositories
[11:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so I found an alternative I have tested for self hosting, and it is actually pretty good
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: even on that ll had to choose the wrong system ::)
[11:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: just as a means of keeping the old repositories with all the history intact
[11:22] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org:
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: jpeg2000, HG.. xml encoding :)
[11:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you go to http://www.dayturn.com:5000 you can see it in action
[11:22] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: so thats a baked texture Bill?
[11:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there are some 20 repositories loaded at the moment
[11:23] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: hehe... baked head. :)
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: Universal wearable can't be used on most opensim versions
[11:23] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: LOL .. So like life
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: future version my block teleports to older versions, according to outfit
[11:24] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: huh?
[11:24] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: or suffer the BOOOOOOMM!
[11:25] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: am i reading that right?
[11:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that's not good
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: no point sending a outfit that not only can cause regions troubles ( or even BOOMMM) and arrive broken for all users there
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: in past we did block tps to vars
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: nothing new
[11:25] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: oh that will go over well
[11:26] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: It could be seen as another reason for people to upgrade their grids from 0.8
[11:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is a pretty convoluted feature as it is at the moment ëvery video on YT trying to explain it is 40-60 minutes
[11:26] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: maybe better to consider a different version of Bom if it is not backwards compatible?
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: well even on new code, ppl with older viewers will see as you see me and bill
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: or worse on more complex meshes
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: but that we aill not block
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: a issue similar to when meshes where introduced
[11:28] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: dont forget we have osl code that picks up baked textures and can be applied to meshes anyway
[11:28] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: ok. Now I know how to identify if someone is using BoM.
[11:28] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: wqe dont really need the viewer support though it looks nice
[11:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: haha
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: you mean npcs?
[11:28] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: no
[11:29] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i have had a script to apply bakes on mesh for several years
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: well i didn't look to npcs, but should be easy
[11:29] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: its nothing new for opensim
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: Arielle its not just that
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: read about BoM for the next meeting ;)
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: it has pros and cons, like eveything
[11:30] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i have, it is a convoluted workflow meant for protection in s/l
[11:30] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I have the new BoM viewer. I'll be using it after this meeting.
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: but its not just to put a baked texture on a prim
[11:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: exactly Arielle
[11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not that we don't need to protect content creators in opensim
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: well it also can reduce the number of downloads needed
[11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: can
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: see ppl dividing some like it, some don't
[11:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but more an incentive to not create avatars with 5 geografted layers
[11:32] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: well Nani and Hyacinth also put a server side BoM in their version that doesnt need special viewers
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: but most agree most avatars will be a bit lighter with it
[11:32] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: https://lookits.me/hy/index.php/nanisim/
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: we are talking about this feature viewers may have now
[11:33] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: not in opensim and Gavin is saying it wont be easy
[11:33] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: and you are saying it will break backward compatibility
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: basic BoM on opensim is very easy opensim side
[11:34] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: to the point of having to block tp's
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: yes it will
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: it's cost of improvements
[11:35] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i suspect it will not fly
[11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you want to be able to send the correct outfit/mesh to everyone in the scene regardless of old or new viewer it is tricky
[11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you just break all old behaior, it is significantly easier
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: will not happen gavin.Hird
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: at least so many older sim versions
[11:35] Sheera Khan: too bad - my old laptop still has glibc2.26 and can't run the BoM-viewer :-(
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: hardcoded for 6 baked meshs and 32 max
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: they kept the name, unlike some ugly ppl
[11:36] Ubit Umarov looks to bill
[11:36] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: Bill could take that baked texture and just apply it to his mesh and its done. Why does it need anything more?
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: Arielle not the same
[11:37] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: in what way?
[11:37] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I can't run the BoM viewer either as I don't have the required glibc library.
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: you can take ONE mesh copy
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: it will look different on you than it will look on me
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: the same mesh...
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: according to the rest of wearables
[11:38] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: well yes, you have a male mesh body and me female
[11:38] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: hopefully
[11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I think it is problematic that when SL releases a feature, we just jump on it as if it was the end of the world if not supported immediately
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: my mesh exactly the same Bill is wearing
[11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: SL has a unified environment where changes are relatively easy to enforce
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: and on a fs 6.3.1 we do look very dif
[11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: in opensim nothing can be enforced
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: in fact with this simple avatar, as we did look without the mesh :)
[11:40] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: In SL viewer updates are downloaded automatically. Not so with OpenSim viewers.
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: by the way viewer version tags will be gone
[11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and they only have one server instance were all the backend is running the same
[11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: far from so in opensim
[11:41] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: yes but still supposed to be a way to tell what version of viewer you have
[11:41] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Ubit, no tags at all or just for releases?
[11:41] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: read or heard about that
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: andrew those tags over avatars with dif colours acording to viewer version
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: ( you did vote that lol )
[11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: Oh. I thought you meant tags in the source tree.
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: well those also.. they where killing git
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: now only on a release point
[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: Hm... I don't recall a vote on that topic. Not that I care what other people are using for viewer. unless they need help with something.
[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks nods to Ubit.
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: gezz what a pain when i did restored some 30000 of those
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: spent an afternoon deleting them again
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: meanwhile git almost useless :)
[11:44] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: so is there a place to download the BoM FS viewer?
[11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: I remember the problem with the tags in the source code for the main OpenSim code. Don't know why someone felt the need to tag every single commit.
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: a non official version yes arielle.Popstar
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: its in front of your eyes :p
[11:45] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i use unnofficial versions all the time :)
[11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: I might try compiling the source myself to see if that avoids the library version problem.
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: it also has plugh map search thing
[11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: according to Bill :)
[11:46] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: looks at her drink for a viewer download link
[11:46] Bill Blight: yes and fixed the "not found" box that was popping up randomly when you searched and it only found one
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: now full BoM suport ( the one that will cause blocked tps etc ) in still working on it region side
[11:47] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: where in front of my eyes Ubit.Umarov?
[11:47] Bill Blight: Do seriously mean you can't see the avatar model standing at the center bar with the floating text to download the viewer
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: and viewers will need a few changes
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: ( they also can't send any BoM things to older regions (
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, I noticed it the moment I arrived.
[11:49] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: cool
[11:49] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: ty
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: by full BoM i mean having the universal wearable and the baked textures it controls
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: We are down to 12 minutes before the top of the hour. Does someone have another question or topic for todays meeting?
[11:49] Bill Blight: Yes I compiled the linux version on ubuntu 18 because well ... Nobody should be very far behind that ... :P
[11:49] Kayaker Magic: LOL, I like the lack of warranty notice!
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, so always says those who like to stay right on top of the latest releases. :)
[11:50] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: any tutorials for building compiling FS in windows?
[11:50] Bill Blight: Ubuntu 19 is getting ready to come out
[11:50] Bill Blight: LOL
[11:51] Bill Blight: so yeah
[11:51] Bill Blight: Nearsighted
[11:51] Bill Blight: people
[11:51] Bill Blight: :P
[11:51] Bill Blight: https://wiki.firestormviewer.org/fs_compiling_firestorm
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: do not forget the war and peace part
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: I know Mint 19.1 has been release. I'm still on 18.3 but I do have 19 installed in a separate partition. I just haven't tried it out. I'm not sure about the change in how package management is now being done with this time something or other thing that was introduced.
[11:52] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i recall you saying you had a lot of trouble with their instructions Bill
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: I wonder how much they messed up Linux this time.
[11:52] Bill Blight: Had trouble with the Singu build
[11:52] Bill Blight: FS was no problem
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: It can take a bit of work in order to be able to build a viewer.
[11:52] Bill Blight: I gave up on compiling Singu
[11:53] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: thought andrew managed sing
[11:53] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: pretty sure Hyacinth has too
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: I had tried and given up building a viewer several times until some time later when I tried again it finally compiled. I used the instructions on the Sing site.
[11:53] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: but you the only one i heard of that did FS
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: Singularity with the first viewer I managed to compile. I have since compiled Firestorm. The version of FS I'm currently running is one I compiled.
[11:54] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is a difference in compiling a repository that already is building and release ready, and to maintain and progress it over time
[11:54] Bill Blight: big diff
[11:56] Bill Blight: I only compiled it on Ubuntu 18 because I was told you couldn't
[11:56] Bill Blight: LOL
[11:56] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: haha
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: i managed to comp a singu version.. then a alch version and recently fs one
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: not all at same time :)
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: now i can only comp fs :)
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: Once you can compile one viewer you can probably compile many others. The initial problem is getting all the dependencies in place.
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: ( and without sound etc.. i don't bother getting the needed libs for it )
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: not really andrew
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: all different
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: dif dependencies, dif autobuild tools etc
[11:57] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is quite a big diffferenve between the viewer in the build procedures and requirements
[11:57] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: diff libs
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: all dif
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: I couldn't compile any viewer until one day I could do Sing. Once I could do Sing I was able to do FS.
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: i never managed to compile kokua
[11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: kokua for SL?
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: ahh and dif VS versions
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: You mean there are some viewers using same build systems?
[11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no
[11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hehe
[11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: just different versions of insanity
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: different versions of what may seem more or less identical
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't use VS to do builds.
[11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is not meant to build in VS
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: duhh tou still need each version tools
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: if you use the ide or not, just a final detail
[12:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: plus you have different OS versions as well
[12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: macOS versions cannot be built on anything but Mac hardware
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: i really only want to look to sources using the ide :)
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: if compiles or not, its a detail
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: no plans on making viewer code changes
[12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and Singu use an ancient version of Xcode
[12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so I can't build it
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, That would depend on if a person was cross-compiling or was running a good emulator on non Mac hardware.
[12:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it cannot be cross compiled
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: guess a win only viewer could kill all that cmake crap
[12:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it MUST be compiled with Xcode
[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: I'd like to see a viewer using something like cmake. That would be preferable to the build system I see in Sing and FS.
[12:03] Bill Blight: FS uses cmake
[12:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Dayturn and SL, Kokua all use cmake
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: andrew they use cmake :)
[12:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and it is a complete mess
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. I mostly remember the days when it was whatever SL had been using which was some strange beast of a way to build code.
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't care whether it uses cmake or autofoo. They are both easy to use for compiling.
[12:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it use autobuild to generate cmake code, for a VS pr Xcode project
[12:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: on Windows you install cygwin and build the VS project thre
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: not really
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: it used the cmake from it
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: but controled by vs compilers
[12:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: on macOS you use Xcodebuild to build the project configured via autobuild -> cmake
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: wel or something like that
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: i do compile fs inside the ide now
[12:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is not properly packaged for distribution then
[12:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you can build it in VS for testing
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: and why would i want that? :)
[12:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you are in the business of distributing viewer to actual users, you want to do that
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: sure, but im not
[12:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: right
[12:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: remember that when when you hand out unofficial viewers
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: Bill did managed to mk full packages :)
[12:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: when nobody is ready to maintain for you?
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: well hand out and maintain are unrelated things
[12:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: There is one line on the FS repository: ATTN Viewer developers: Please do not add our orignal, pre-release code to other viewer before we release it ourselves
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: totally unrelated :p
[12:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and FS has not released what is over there in the corner
[12:11] Bill Blight: But technically , if they post it to their LGPL repository they can't stop anybody from releasing it
[12:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sure not except ban you
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: actually FS can ask.. not impose anything
[12:12] Bill Blight: right
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: but academic discussion
[12:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and it is the same with LL code
[12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: hm... I tried to build FS but it says I need to set LL_BUILD first.
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: this are just test things for a limited audience
[12:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we don't release it unless in a release viewer
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: at least here
[12:12] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: so shouldnt tell any FS viewers Opensim has a FS Opensim viewer?
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: no Arielle.Popstar
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: it is just a test thing,
[12:13] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: but we should be allowed a tester viewer
[12:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: FS has an opensim viewer released 4 months ago
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: at least opensim offical position
[12:13] Bill Blight: did you follow the instructions Andrew and download and set the build variables
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: for us opensim FS means Firestorm official releases of course
[12:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: their release viewer is also 4 months old
[12:14] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: they have beta testers
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: that does not mean we can't pre test their code
[12:14] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: maybe i should apply
[12:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so we might test developer builds
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: even a few test changes to submit to them
[12:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but we should not use their code to distribute
[12:15] Bill Blight: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Lesser_General_Public_License
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: but no one can forbid others from forking FS, remaning it, fixing the credentials etc..
[12:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sure
[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, I was just going through what it said in the README file for Linux.
[12:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but that is a relatively big job
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: ie other name, proper mention to fs on credentials etc
[12:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: even a namechange is
[12:15] Bill Blight: follow the website
[12:15] Bill Blight: not he readme
[12:16] Bill Blight: the site is updated
[12:16] Bill Blight: readme not so much I think
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: thats what all TPVs did from the SL source :)
[12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: What? The readme in the source tree is out of date? Shocking.  ;)
[12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[12:16] Bill Blight: https://wiki.firestormviewer.org/fs_compiling_firestorm
[12:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they did Ubit, but there are no TPV viewer that are exactly LL code
[12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll have a go at that another time. After this meeting I need to get back to finishing off a couple of routines for some paid work.
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: just saying that anyone can do the same starting on any tpv
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: in fact some out there derived from other tpv source
[12:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the chain for dayturn is kokua and imprudence
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: like derived from alch etc
[12:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: imprudence was largely built with the snowglobe LL code, but not completely
[12:18] Bill Blight: the ones here are not EXACTLY FS code, they have patches that are not in FS and will be on Github later today unless i break it
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: ( ok will be on git next week bc Bill will break it )
[12:18] Bill Blight: ^^^^ What he said
[12:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[12:20] Ubit Umarov: well for me, this are just previews of BoM support
[12:20] Ubit Umarov: thanks Bill for making them
[12:20] Andrew Hellershanks: We are well past the hour mark. Any other last minute items before we wrap up todays gathering?
[12:20] Ubit Umarov: since it has been impossible to talk with any fs dev in last weeks
[12:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I am going to test a new windows build in a few once it has compiled
[12:21] Ubit Umarov: and its fs bc i don't see any other viewer with it
[12:21] Ubit Umarov: tpv i mean
[12:22] Ubit Umarov: and as i said that code as is can't be deployed for all opensim usage
[12:22] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, the instructions on the website result in a different message that the AUTOBUILD_VARIABLES_FILE is not set.
[12:22] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm not sure if that is progress or not. :)
[12:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: right
[12:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: LL has a repository of their variables
[12:23] Ubit Umarov: unless universal wearable is fully blocked for all opensim versions that will not tell viewer they do suport it
[12:23] Ubit Umarov: that will be most likely a flag on a lludp packet
[12:24] Ubit Umarov: region handshake packet, Protocol field bit 63 i guess
[12:24] Bill Blight: https://wiki.firestormviewer.org/fs_compiling_firestorm_alexivy_ubuntu_16
[12:24] Bill Blight: that i the one you should be using
[12:24] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: so it will block tp to any region older then that commit?
[12:24] Bill Blight: cd ~/src/phoenix-firestorm-lgpl
source ../fs-build-variables/convenience Release
export AUTOBUILD_VARIABLES_FILE=$HOME/src/fs-build-variables/variables
[12:25] Bill Blight: yada yada yada
[12:25] Ubit Umarov: arielle new opensim code with suport for the universal wearable will forbid tps of ppl wearing to older regions
[12:26] Bill Blight: It could crash the destination region if it allowed it
[12:26] Ubit Umarov: yes
[12:26] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: maybe should branch it then?
[12:26] Ubit Umarov: and even if they didn't, they will be a mess as seen by others
[12:26] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: or fork?
[12:26] Ubit Umarov: no branch no fork
[12:27] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: no use then
[12:27] Ubit Umarov: you just change the outfit and you can tp
[12:27] Ubit Umarov: as you should change outfits bf HG
[12:27] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: oh so it is only if one is using a BoM?
[12:27] Ubit Umarov: ppl should use simpler outfits on HG
[12:27] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: pfft
[12:28] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: Don't you think that would justify a jump in the minor version from 0.9.1 to 0.9.2?
[12:28] Ubit Umarov: yes arielle wearing the breaking universal wearable that adds 5 more baked textures
[12:28] Ubit Umarov: from 26 to 45 total
[12:28] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: Just as an indicator where the change happened?
[12:28] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: good point Sheera
[12:28] Ubit Umarov: my local code is current a total mess :)
[12:29] Ubit Umarov: well it is working
[12:29] Ubit Umarov: but also tring to clean up the appearence code, bakes handling etc
[12:30] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: so maybe do a pre release before adding that bom
[12:30] Ubit Umarov: bet for a while master will have a few issues on that :)
[12:30] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: its a pretty major change
[12:31] Ubit Umarov: well no new issue
[12:31] Ubit Umarov: first time i did add physics layer suport, i did kill a main avination region on a tp :)
[12:31] Ubit Umarov: with a lot of ppl on it :)
[12:32] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: I guess that was totally worth it ;-)
[12:32] Ubit Umarov: today we do send that to older regions, but will arrive broken
[12:32] Ubit Umarov: but no one really notices..
[12:34] Ubit Umarov: about how good or bad BoM is
[12:34] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: so will you consider making this a release version?
[12:35] Ubit Umarov: seem ppl on both sides at sl blogs
[12:35] Ubit Umarov: it does save alpha layers etc
[12:35] Ubit Umarov: hanging some look is change wearing another weable
[12:36] Ubit Umarov: no need for scripts etc
[12:37] Ubit Umarov: well lets see
[12:37] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: So it can be useful to reduce the load on viewers - and that's great stuff :-)
[12:37] Ubit Umarov: yeap that was a drive reason
[12:37] Ubit Umarov: they claim that mesh avatars need to have less meshes
[12:38] Ubit Umarov: seems some have 100 or more layers of meshes
[12:38] Ubit Umarov: gezzz
[12:38] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: all it does is lessen the need for multiple layers
[12:38] Ubit Umarov: "all"
[12:38] Ubit Umarov: lol
[12:38] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: most meshes have no more then 3 anyway
[12:38] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: that in itself is a reason to do it
[12:38] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: not really
[12:39] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: typical complexity nowadays is under a 100k
[12:39] Ubit Umarov: says the one always complained avatars take time to load :p
[12:39] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: thats not because of complexity
[12:39] Ubit Umarov: oh no?
[12:39] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: The viewer has to render significantly less - especially if the sim has a lot of visitors
[12:39] Ubit Umarov: complexity is what ??
[12:39] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:40] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: not much of anything which is why s/l is relooking at the measurement
[12:40] Ubit Umarov: gezz my basic is 1424 complexity
[12:40] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: a lot of it makes no sense
[12:40] Ubit Umarov: errr why do i have a tatoo ??
[12:40] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: well then put better system avatars in
[12:41] Ubit Umarov: hmm ai gave it to me
[12:41] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: then no need for external mesh avatars
[12:41] Ubit Umarov: yeah viewers should do that
[12:41] Ubit Umarov: ll should had done that
[12:41] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: you should do that as you have the ability now to compile and release a viewer
[12:42] Ubit Umarov: yeah if you like a viewer without sound and install package :p
[12:42] Ubit Umarov: ( my compiled one )
[12:42] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: Bill can do it
[12:42] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: or teach you how
[12:43] Ubit Umarov: yeah but we are not viewer devs
[12:43] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: then there is no need for BoM is there
[12:43] Ubit Umarov: this and avatar code is far from the simpler kind of code
[12:43] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: we have the best then because we have a decent lightweight avatar mesh
[12:43] Ubit Umarov: most tpvs don't even touch it
[12:44] Ubit Umarov: or most tpvs devs