Chat log from the meeting on 2019-07-02

[11:01] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Hm... I'm here on time. I got here before some of the other regular attendees. :)
[11:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I took delivery of one of the new Raspberry Pi 4 today
[11:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: already have a var up and running on it
[11:02] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Gavin, quick! look over there!
[11:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: where?
[11:02] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org swipes Gavin's Pi 4 while he isn't looking.
[11:02] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org grins
[11:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hehe
[11:02] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Which version did you get?
[11:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it was quite a bit faster than the previous model
[11:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I could only get the 2 GB model
[11:02] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: yea, that's what I've heard.
[11:03] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I've been thinking about getting a 4GB model.
[11:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: this was just a test
[11:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but yes
[11:03] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I'm not 100% sure but I think an 8GB version may be due out by end of year.
[11:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so it is running actually Debian Buster which only has official release on July 7
[11:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I would think they will come with an updated model again in a year or so
[11:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it actually managed to compile opensim on its own this time
[11:05] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Gavin, 2.5A or 3A power supply?
[11:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: before I had built it on another machine and copied over
[11:05] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Nice.
[11:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I feed it over POE
[11:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: from a switch
[11:06] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Nebadon has run OpenSim on a Pi 3. You shouldn't have any trouble running it on the 4.
[11:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the POE HAT is what is needed
[11:06] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: What are you doing that would require that?
[11:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I already have a public VAR running on a 3B+
[11:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: powering it over ethernet
[11:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so I'll probably make up a procedure and publish, plus a repository where the libraries that must be compiled for ARM is included
[11:10] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org nods
[11:10] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Sounds good.
[11:11] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I wonder if some people are away this week due to the Canada Day and/or July 4th holidays?
[11:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: possibly
[11:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: don't think that is of any concern of Ubit
[11:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: he might have been struck by the European heatwave though
[11:12] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: It has gotten a bit warm over there?
[11:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: in the south
[11:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: here it is very cold
[11:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there was snow in the mountains from south to north this morning
[11:13] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: It feels like summer here at last.
[11:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there he is
[11:13] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: We can start now. A lot of other people must be away for the holidays this week.
[11:15] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Who would like to kick things off this week?
[11:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: except for the PI there is not much new
[11:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is a new viewer build out at the usual place https://www.dayturn.com/viewer/index.php?resources/
[11:16] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Anything in particular worth mentioning about the latest version of the viewer?
[11:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is an update to the cache that should lead to fewer stalls
[11:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: updates to the renderer
[11:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I tested it on Kitely again, and it (mostly) works
[11:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which it hasn't for over a year
[11:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: some older meses don't render, but new stuff does
[11:18] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: That's progress.
[11:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yeah
[11:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is also a small update to VAR region support in that copy and paste of object positions works as expected
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: we are talking about what viewer?
[11:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Dayturn
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: ok
[11:20] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Gavin -- I will try out your viewer on Kitely
[11:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: please do
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: improvements specific to it or already on other viewers like fs ?
[11:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you have to set to not use http textures for it to work
[11:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: specific to it
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: errr udp textures? not that good now :)
[11:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Kitely ...
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: even 0.8x does http
[11:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is the only grid I have tested on where you have to do that
[11:22] Royale.Mobian @grid.mobiusgrid.us:8002: could be something Kitely changed
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: and even on 0.8 should be a bit faster then lludp texture transfer, at least cleaner
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: try disable http pipeline there
[11:23] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: At the meeting in Kitely this past weekend I heard that they have over 400 patches in the version of 0.8.2 they are running.
[11:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I am not going to make any special effort for Kitely whne it works across the board elsewhere
[11:23] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I was amazed they have made so many patches. I wonder what they are for and how many (if any) are not needed due to changes in the 0.9 code base.
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: 0.8 does not do httppipeline or even keepalive, unless they did fix it there
[11:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: probably a lot for all the export stuff
[11:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you turn off http-pipeline in the viewer it just makes a mess on Kitely
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: its to suport their things andrew, regions full shutdown when not in use, market, etc
[11:24] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I'll have to ask Ilan about it the next time I see him.
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: 0.8 does not do http pipeline as i said, not even did keepalive well
[11:25] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: That would make sense. It is still a lot of changes they may have to reapply to 0.9 if it just (mainly?) to support their grid infrastructure.
[11:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I made a short note on Dayturn on Kitely https://www.dayturn.com/viewer/index.php?threads/using-dayturn-viewer-on-kitely.107/
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: but ask them about that on their fork, mb they improved it
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: don't think they will ever use 0.9
[11:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: probably not
[11:26] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: There was some talk on the weekend about using 0.9
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: they even had plans to change to something totaly diferent ?
[11:26] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Ilan is considering 0.9 now
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: guess from that new thing philip linden is doing ( they already made code for it ??)
[11:27] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: they may have a big customer that wants 0.9
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: well they had a big customer that wanted old ode :)
[11:28] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: really? :P
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: good i keept it even omn 0.9 :(
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: even on 0.9 :)
[11:28] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: True, Ubit --
[11:29] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Yes, really, Andrew
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: well we are around if they need any help, or even have sugestions to 0.9 changes
[11:29] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: This is connected with their private grid setup
[11:30] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: they are getting interest on this
[11:30] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: from educators
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: good :)
[11:31] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: In principle, they could offer optional 0.9 and 0.8
[11:32] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org nods
[11:32] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: as a transition
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: fred does that on the dream thing i think
[11:32] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: The VPG brings in big customers
[11:33] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I think they have at least 150 regions in VPG
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: nice
[11:34] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Not bad considering the VPG hasn't been available for that long.
[11:35] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: And I am guessing one VPG has about 50 regions
[11:37] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Moment of silence for SL
[11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: SL is up in arms over the latest update to their terms
[11:38] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: SL has shot themselves in the virtual foot, again
[11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: might see some more refugees from there after Aug 1
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: oh?
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: what did they changed?
[11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: actually they have to do something because of US regulations
[11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and Globit will have to do the same type of change
[11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they will transfer all payment in USD to a subsidiary
[11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: add new fees
[11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: have averyone approve a new TOS or they are out
[11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and you have to send them proof of identity to cash out
[11:40] Bill.Blight @hg.osgrid.org: gloebit already being a stand alone company , pretty much is ok .. They may have to collect more info if your balance is over X ammount
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: you lost a lot of silence :)
[11:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but Internet has some glitches today
[11:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: silence
[11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, I thought they already dealt with that some time ago.
[11:48] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: oh, one thing
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: go ahead, Gavin
[11:48] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I tried both on my viewer and FS that did not quite work
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: what?
[11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: In the Region section for the viewer I changed number of agents from the default 40 to another number
[11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it acutally wrote the change to the db, but after that it just displayed a veired -1
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: i seen that and looks like viewer thing
[11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and it was not possible to update it any more, not even after logging out or restarting the viewer
[11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the region I mean
[11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so some strange interaction there
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: regions never tell -1 to viewer
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: Sounds like an odd bug.
[11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: has anyone else tested it and found it to work OK?
[11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it was very strange
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: viewer just changes to -1 not asking region
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: no idea why also
[11:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so you have seen it before?
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks flüstert: What did you change it to instead of 40?
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: yes
[11:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: right
[11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: need to investigate that then
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, What did you change it to instead of 40?
[11:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: 10
[11:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for the Pi 3b+ region
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. Not a problem with an overflow of the variable type that would hold the value.
[11:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no
[11:54] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I'm going to test some older versions to see if it ever worked
[11:54] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there has been quite a few changes to that code in the viewer lately and it could be something there
[11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have taken fewer of those changes than FS have
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Let us know what you find.
[11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sure
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: Almost the top of the hour.
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: just tested with older singu and worked ok
[11:57] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I am pretty sure it has worked before
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: I hope any of you who are in Canada enjoy the Canada Day festivities yesterday. To the Americans, I hope you have a happy and safe Fourth of July.
[11:57] Bill Blight: Who doesn't love a day full of small explosives
[11:57] Bill Blight: lol
[11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: haha
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: fs as soon i type a new number it changes to -1 at same time it makes Apply visible
[11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sounds like a certain president will pull out the big explosives
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: clear a viewer issue
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't recall hearing any of the fireworks going off yesterday. I can usually hear them from one of two places near me that have big fireworks displays.
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: no comms to region on that
[11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it wrote the first change to the DB
[11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: then displayed -1 and goofed up completely after
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: guess some bug reading the number from the number entry
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: i can't test at sl :p
[12:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: me neither
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: It does some a bit like that.
[12:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not even on Aditi
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: yeap i put a new number, and as soom i select other thing on the dialog it puts -1 again
[12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I just recompiled bulletsim for the PI 4
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Misterblue, I was just about to wrap up the meeting for today. Did you have any comments or questions?
[12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so will test it after
[12:01] Misterblue Waves: no questions from me... I just sat down at my computer and saw the meeting note... that usually doesn't happen
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, np.
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks ruft: Gavin, which version of mono are you using on the Pi?
[12:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: one sec
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: bah. Lazy fingers keep having either shift or ctrl down while I'm hitting enter. :P
[12:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: version 5.20.1.19
[12:02] Misterblue Waves: Cuga Rajal says there is a problem with vehicles under BulletSim... haven't changed anything so don't know what that is
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: At least I finally figured out the keyboard shortcut for shouting and whispering. :)
[12:03] Misterblue Waves: @Gavin: BulletSim on RPi4... cool... haven't gotten mine yet :)
[12:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I got mine today
[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Misterblue, That is a pretty open ended statement. They would have to provide more information about how they are implementing vehicles.
[12:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is a waitlist for the 4GB model
[12:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so only 2GB
[12:04] Misterblue Waves: Cuga says: " If a flattened cube prim on the ground has tapered front and rear edge, as you normally want for land vehicles, there's a force rolling it to the side, making it un-driveable. "
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: The store here in Canada is out of the 2GB model until today, IIRC. The 4GB model is another couple weeks away.
[12:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yeah
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: we do not want that prim for vehicles.. thats a mesh
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Misterblue, that is an interesting problem.
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: guess
[12:05] Misterblue Waves: could be some oddity in the meshing of the tapered prim
[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Just use the vehicle in an oval race track with banked sides  ;)
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: well thats odd, a lot of ppl did use that kinds of prim
[12:06] Misterblue Waves: @Ubit: you been messing with meshing? Or has libOMV been updated lately?
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: did not touch normal Meshmerizer code
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: lib omv had changes, but don't think its used on that
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: i mean to gen the mesh
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: old Meshmerizer does that
[12:07] Misterblue Waves: have considered breaking up libOMV like Cinder did for libreOMV (move to .NET Standard, etc) but that pile of code is a tangled web
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: remember we are using the version at https://bitbucket.org/opensimulator/
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: see no reason to do as cinder did, specially .net standard
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: at least for now
[12:09] Misterblue Waves: hard to know where the real repositories are... there maybe should be a note the the front page of opensimulator.org about where are the sources are
[12:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: good idea
[12:10] Misterblue Waves: only need to do all that if you want the NuGet packages
[12:10] Misterblue Waves: but I don't see OpenSimulator embracing those any time soon :)
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: and we do want NuGet ? :)
[12:11] Misterblue Waves: The Halcyon folks have several tools that they include libreOMV as NuGet packages... makes it easier for them, I guess
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: possible
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: well if they use libre, they kinda have 2 :)
[12:13] Misterblue Waves: I might be checking in some event enhancements over the next month... working on some modules and might need some events out of the simulator
[12:14] Misterblue Waves: how is the new script engine coming? Is it a replacement yet?
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: oops i still have that mantis issue on memory usage accounting
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: but several ppl are now using it
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: like bill
[12:15] Royale.Mobian @grid.mobiusgrid.us:8002: I only use YEngine on Mobius
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: and royale.Mobian
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: ahh :)
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: its extensions are still "undefined" things like classes etc.. i don't like them
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: but they are needed on current implementation of arrays.. grrrr
[12:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: all right, tc
[12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: np, Sheera. It is about time to call this meeting to an end.
[12:18] Royale.Mobian @grid.mobiusgrid.us:8002: good thing my dev and I forked it before you remove them as we use classes alot and our users love them
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: think complex things like classes etc are outside the scope of a script engine for opensim
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: well i did not removed them still :p
[12:19] Ubit Umarov: as i said they are needed for arrays that i want
[12:17] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: So sorry I have to bail out now :-( If there's more interesting stuff to be discussed please add it to the chat log on opensimulator.org
[12:19] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002 waves
[12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Sheera.
[12:19] Royale.Mobian @grid.mobiusgrid.us:8002: you voiced your intent before which why took a preventive measure
[12:20] Royale.Mobian @grid.mobiusgrid.us:8002: good want our scripts to break for if and when finally do it
[12:20] Royale.Mobian @grid.mobiusgrid.us:8002: *dont want
[12:21] Ubit Umarov: gezz a mantis issue about a windows update ??
[12:21] Royale.Mobian @grid.mobiusgrid.us:8002: lol
[12:21] Misterblue Waves: sorry about being late the causing the meeting to go over
[12:21] Ubit Umarov: win update breaking moap ?
[12:22] Andrew Hellershanks: Misterblue, np. We didn't start that early as there was so few people here at the start.
[12:22] Ubit Umarov: well im still on win 1809
[12:23] Ubit Umarov: guess ill wait for the update or ill be just blind
[12:24] Bill Blight: I was on 1903 for a while, and had no MOAP issues
[12:24] Ubit Umarov: guess more old .net code got removed
[12:24] Ubit Umarov: yeap a test case would be nice on that mantis
[12:24] Bill Blight: but I only tested my windows region for a short time
[12:25] Ubit Umarov: well we can wait for the MS fixes to the update also :p
[12:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Anything more for today or is this a good time to close it out?
[12:27] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't seen anyone in the middle of typing so that will bring this meeting to a close.
[12:27] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: bye all
[12:27] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you all again next week.