Chat log from the meeting on 2018-11-06

[11:15] JayR.Cela @hg.osgrid.org: speaking of Viewers and Viewer Devs I had a number of people recommend CoolVL recently
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: btw notice Alchemy only does udp textures on opensim
[11:16] Bill Blight: coolVL has not been updated in 2 years
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: they have a typo on the caps name: "Gettexure"
[11:16] Bill Blight: but I tested coolVL recently , was not impressed
[11:16] JayR.Cela @hg.osgrid.org: Henri updates that thing on a regular basis
[11:16] Bill Blight: I've been testing all kinds of alternate viewers recently , hard to keep them straight
[11:17] JayR.Cela @hg.osgrid.org: alch is dead project I think
[11:17] Bill Blight: alch devs have decided to favor halcyon according to the last statement I heard from them
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: well at a point FS devs did recomended alch as a better opensim viewer, if i remember
[11:18] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: any compiling FS Bill?
[11:18] JayR.Cela @hg.osgrid.org: whats halycon ?
[11:18] Bill Blight: I"m compiling FS ..
[11:18] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: were able to then?
[11:18] Bill Blight: Halcyon = Inworldz
[11:19] JayR.Cela @hg.osgrid.org: @Bill / ahh their physics engine ?
[11:19] Bill Blight: no
[11:19] Bill Blight: uggg ..
[11:19] JayR.Cela @hg.osgrid.org: the server code ?
[11:19] Bill Blight: Halcyon is a fork of Opensimulator with HG and other things changed
[11:19] Bill Blight: HG removed actually
[11:20] Kayaker Magic: The Halcyon/InWorldz physics engine (PhysX based) is quite good.
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: HG changed? you mean none :)
[11:20] Bill Blight: and technically violates the new physX license, but that is another story
[11:20] Kayaker Magic: Halcyon has no HG at all.
[11:20] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: well neither did avination but was added
[11:20] Kayaker Magic: Halcyon has a good script engine (Phlox) also.
[11:21] Bill Blight: have you tested YEngine?
[11:21] Kayaker Magic: Don't know if anyone mentioned, Halcyon is now open source.
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: yes Kayaker, old news
[11:21] Bill Blight: Halcyon has been opensource since the moses project started a few years ago, and is now dead
[11:22] Kayaker Magic: Nope, not YEngine, Halcyon has a complete re-write. Many of the same bugs fixed in YEngine.
[11:22] Bill Blight: I know they are different, I asked if you have tested YEngine, phlox is not any better
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: kayaker yengine is new...
[11:23] Bill Blight: Yengine is not really new
[11:23] JayR.Cela @hg.osgrid.org: first i heard of it :_)
[11:23] Bill Blight: it is just a renamed XMR engine
[11:23] Bill Blight: that has been around for quite a while
[11:23] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: YEngine has been mentioned here at previous meetings.
[11:23] Bill Blight: this region runs YEngine
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: well some differences relative to xmr ( that is why i did rename it )
[11:24] Kayaker Magic: YEngine can be run on Master OpenSim now, but doesn't work with HG, multiple regions/instance, etc.
[11:24] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: oh is that why my alpha hud not working?
[11:24] Bill Blight: sure it does
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: it actually also works with hg...
[11:24] Bill Blight: just scripts need recompiled when coming from XEngine
[11:24] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: explains why it failed then
[11:24] Kayaker Magic: Unless there have been YEngine fixes recently? Ubit? Works with HG now?
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: same problem as tps from Xengine
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: scripts get full recompile and reset
[11:25] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i just tried to alpha out some skin showing on this sweater but the hud isnt working
[11:25] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Arielle, the scripts in your hud would need to be recompiled when you enter a region running YEngine.
[11:25] Bill Blight: It always has "worked" with HG , but scripts just need to be recompiled when going from XEngine to YEngine
[11:25] Kayaker Magic: Would HG work from YEngine to YEngine regions?
[11:25] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: even after resetting the scripts of both body and hud
[11:25] Bill Blight: yes
[11:25] Bill Blight: yes Kay works just fine
[11:26] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: well thats a bother Andrew
[11:26] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: then recompiled again when reentering an x-engine?
[11:26] Bill Blight: would be the same if you had a phlox region and went from a XEngine region, different engines, different requirements
[11:26] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Arielle, yes
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: well recompile is not a issue.. all scripts are recompiled on tps
[11:27] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: why isnt it working then?
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: that reset is a pain..
[11:27] Bill Blight: it also has some different syntax gotchas, maybe it has things it does not like
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: scritp state loss
[11:27] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: hm... Isn't it a setting as to whether scripts are recompiled on a TP to a new region?
[11:28] Bill Blight: no
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: and needs some more work, removing some options, making errors readable
[11:28] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Does that only happen on a TP or also on a region crossing?
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: all Y<->X
[11:29] Bill Blight: if the script does not exist in the region then it should get recompiled
[11:30] Kayaker Magic: I used to use the pre-compiler to #ifdef the differences between XEngine and PhyloX. Over time those #ifdefs got smaller and smaller. Many syntax issues could be written to work both places. API became more normalized between the two. (Except for the OSSL and IW functions, of course).
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: recompile is a minor part... and by default all scripts should be compiled except on tps to machines from same owner
[11:30] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: do i recompile in lsl or mono?
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: that lsl/mono is long gone
[11:30] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: the viewer gives me the option
[11:30] Bill Blight: does not matter actually
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: its legacy from old sl days when they had 2 script engines
[11:31] JayR.Cela @hg.osgrid.org: yeah mono usually does not work for me
[11:31] Kayaker Magic: Even SL has only mono now I think.
[11:31] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: errors on recompiling
[11:31] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Out of habit I select mono when forcing a recompile of a script.
[11:31] Bill Blight: either you don't have perms or their are syntax errors
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: compiles fine with mono checked or not
[11:32] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: ok works now
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: no idea why viewers still have that option
[11:33] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: so it doesnt recompile on an HG jump[
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: arielle i just told that ALL scripts must be recompiled on HG
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: that is a security MUST
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: on X engine at least
[11:34] Kayaker Magic: So does that work now jumping from an XEngine region to a YEngine region?
[11:34] JayR.Cela @hg.osgrid.org: I've only been testing vehicle scripts / and mostly on 3rdRock with 0.8.2.x and 0.9.0 with both bullet and ubode / mono recompile has not worked at all for me
[11:34] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: it was just said that on a tp the scripts were automatically recompiled
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: it is scripts state, global variables etc
[11:34] Bill Blight: tp within grid
[11:34] JayR.Cela @hg.osgrid.org: so i use LSL
[11:34] Bill Blight: if the script does not exist in the region
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: tp withing grid depends
[11:35] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: whats the default set to ?
[11:35] Bill Blight: yes on owner , perms, yada yada
[11:35] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: x or y?
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: also BAD on osgrid and metro etc.. trustbinaries must be off
[11:35] Bill Blight: X is still the default
[11:35] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: JayR, which viewer are you using?
[11:35] Bill Blight: but Y runs much faster
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: Y still needs more work
[11:36] Bill Blight: yes
[11:36] Bill Blight: it does
[11:36] Kayaker Magic: How about using YEngine with multiple regions per instance, will that work now?
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: then by policy X will stay default for a long time
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: ( like bullet is the default physics )
[11:36] JayR.Cela @hg.osgrid.org: @Andrew / today In am using Singularity Alpha Singularity Viewer (64 bit) 1.8.7 (6994) Apr 9 2018 03:13:50 (Singularity Test)
[11:36] Bill Blight: That is the one thing Halcyon does not allow that I wish we would adopt ... Single instance single region ...
[11:36] JayR.Cela @hg.osgrid.org: xubuntu 16.04
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: Bill ??
[11:37] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: why?
[11:37] Bill Blight: I see more issues with multiple regions in an instance than any others
[11:37] Bill Blight: just my .02
[11:37] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: noone else seems to have issue with it
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: yeap multi regions per instance was a forgotten option on dev
[11:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: issues such as?
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: think a bit better now
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: but single region per instance is the best option
[11:38] Kayaker Magic: Without the HyperGrid, Halcyon will never be used.
[11:38] Bill Blight: Well how many times does someone like me have to say, "I can't replicate that problem" and I only run one region per instance before people start to realize that multiple regions per instance is part of the problem
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: well some of my last changes also reduce load on multiple regioes per instance
[11:39] Bill Blight: Not to mention the fact that if one region in the instance has issues it affects all of them
[11:39] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: doesnt replicating mean that you use the same configuration?
[11:39] JayR.Cela @hg.osgrid.org: woo
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: well did you noticed this is a OpenSimulator meeting, not halcyon ? :p
[11:39] JayR.Cela @hg.osgrid.org: thats a show stopper :_(
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: if halcyon had usable code to integrate on opensim i would have done it..
[11:40] Bill Blight: not when you are testing code not a persons configuration
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: ( well i did not check all its licenses.. assuming it is still like ours )
[11:41] Bill Blight: there is now way to test how a person has their setup exactly, only can test to break the code, users are free to screw up their configs all they want ...
[11:41] Bill Blight: ok I"m getting off my soap box ...
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: as is we do not need another physics engine to mantain or script engine..
[11:42] JayR.Cela @hg.osgrid.org: hey bill are you still planing on compiling the Kokua viewer ?
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: specially when Y does have potential to be better
[11:42] Bill Blight: I might but only for windows
[11:42] JayR.Cela @hg.osgrid.org: Gavin and you should talk
[11:43] Bill Blight: well only for windows for you
[11:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: did you manage to set up an environment for building yet?
[11:43] Bill Blight: We have been talking
[11:43] JayR.Cela @hg.osgrid.org: Haa / I don't use Windows :_)
[11:43] Bill Blight: I got my server back up and running yesterday
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: viewers building env... such a pain...
[11:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I got half way through building a VM for compiling the Windows version today
[11:43] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Ubit, Yup. Been there, dealt with that.
[11:43] Bill Blight: had reconfigured it to do some testing on a opensim issue, so just getting it back setup to build a viewer
[11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok
[11:44] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: The biggest problem is getting all the required dependencies installed.
[11:44] JayR.Cela @hg.osgrid.org: kool :_)
[11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is actually quite painful setting it up
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: well the one i have compiling is alch but only 64 and release mode, rest fails :)
[11:45] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Yes. It took me a very long time to get set up the first time. I gave up for a while and tried again later before I finally succeeded.
[11:45] JayR.Cela @hg.osgrid.org: :_(
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: well i do have fails.. but i get working bin
[11:45] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Since I got my machine to where I can build viewers I'm able to compile both Singularity and Firestorm.
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: ( my bin does use http for textures now.. well big deal adding a missing letter :) )
[11:46] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I have the source for Kokua. I haven't tried building it.
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: that bug does look like many i do lol
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: making a typo then c&p it all over :)
[11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: one thing is to compile a static repository, another thing is to actively develop it
[11:48] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: This past week I've been doing a bit of work on the wiki pages.
[11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: great
[11:49] JayR.Cela @hg.osgrid.org: kool
[11:49] JayR.Cela @hg.osgrid.org: lot of work thanks Andrew :_)
[11:49] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I was updating the pages of OSSL functions to state when various functions were added to OpenSim starting from 0.7.6
[11:50] JayR.Cela @hg.osgrid.org: hmmm
[11:50] JayR.Cela @hg.osgrid.org: i'll have to take a look
[11:50] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I found a number of recently added functions that weren't even listed. The OSSL implemented wiki page now lists them and I've made pages for most of them. I still have about 4 or so that need pages.
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: My intention is to start looking at the wiki pages about the ll functions once I'm done with the OSSL ones. The pages about the state of implementation of LSL functions is rather out of date.
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: djphil ? and others did some updates also
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: ohh i did mess some also :)
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: As an example, code for llName2Key was recently added to master. The status of that function needs to be updated in the wiki.
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: i actually had idea to autogen those pages.. but took care of forgetting it fast :p
[11:53] JayR Cela: haaa :_)
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: Some of the LSL functions are physics related so I will have to be talking with Ubit and misterblue to find out if they are supported in the physics engines.
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: I expect it will take a while to get the ll function pages updated.
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: that bc i made a quick and dirty program to gen the scripts syntax we now send to viewers ( and they ignore in part )
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: plz stop asking viewers to add ossl etc to their syntax files
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: bc as they do it ( FS specially ) overides ours
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: we we can't fix/change anything
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: and..
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: you can see it here
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: the ossl funcs fs does not know about are listed in right places..
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't know who has been asking viewer devs to add entries to their syntax files. I know I haven't done that. I had forgotten about those files.
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: some ppl askes
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: asks
[11:58] Bill Blight: and some are getting added wrong
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: where is my test box? ohh was temp
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: yeap
[11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Why don't you publish the OSSL syntax file to a persisten URL and viewer can load it via the same mechanism that is in the LL viewer?
[11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: then you really don't need any server support at all
[11:59] Bill Blight: they don't pull ossl from a url
[11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they pull LSL from a url now
[11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: can do the same for OSSL
[11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or even a merged version
[11:59] Bill Blight: who's going to host it? and keep it updated?
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: on a chat with Royale he told me how they did add it to their grid and convinced me it was usefull
[12:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: opensimulator.org
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: petty i did miss that they where going to donate that code, and went making it miself :(
[12:00] Bill Blight: that server will die with that many requests, each user that opens a viewer making even that small request
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: so the due public reference to that :)
[12:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is much easier to maintain one version at one URL than try and spread it via simulator updates
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: ( to Royale and Stolen Ruby ??? hope im getting names right )
[12:01] Bill Blight: might be better from a bitbucket url or github url
[12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you only need to read it on login
[12:01] Bill Blight: yes you are
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: in right Bill? good
[12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sure, whatever location has the capacity
[12:01] Object: Script running
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: ok Bill also remembers me he had told me about that also :)
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: well if you create a scrkipt and lock the insert list, our things are there
[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: It would also be useful for viewers to cache the information and only download it again if they detect it has changed. That requires some form of versioning information being available.
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: already done andrew
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: good
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: ll did that right
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: guess they also needed it, having regions with dif versions up
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: just damm XML a total waste of bandwitdh
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: AWAKE UP PPL
[12:07] JayR Cela: ummm
[12:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what?
[12:07] JayR Cela: ok boss / lol :_)
[12:07] JayR Cela: I'm burnt out today
[12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: This past week I had someone ask me about SLURLs. When they told a viewer to save a viewer it always came out starting with "login." instead of "grid.".
[12:07] JayR Cela: long morning at the voting polls
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: Bill needs to replace this things that look like beer by things that look like coffee
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Is that a viewer specific issue? I noticed that with Firestorm but Singularity generated a different SLURL for the same location.
[12:08] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.outandproud.life:8002: nods @ Ubit
[12:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is viewer specific
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: what slurl ?
[12:09] JayR Cela: yeah differnt versions of Sing Alpha generate differnt too
[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: The one you get when you hit "Copy SLurl" in the map dialog.
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: ohh ok
[12:09] JayR Cela: so is pretty much useless
[12:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the reason is that FS want their viewer to open when people click on a Slurl, SL does the same, Sing does the same etc
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: a sl only thing
[12:09] JayR Cela: yep is SL specific
[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: I would have expected the SLurl would have started with the grid loginURI.
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: and we should never claim to have it working
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: at most a OSULR
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: or OSURL
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks tries to remember if he had any other issue to raise.
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: ok about andrew weak memory,,,
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: We are past the hour mark once again. Any other topic for today before we call this meeting to a close?
[12:11] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: HG Friend presence and IM's
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: hmm nothing to tell :)
[12:11] JayR Cela: nope
[12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, naw. Small FIFO prone to overflow. :)
[12:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it will be interesting to see how the Dotard of Covfefe does it tonight
[12:12] JayR Cela: if osgrid remains online
[12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: If we are heading in that direction its time to wrap up this meeting.
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: " if osgrid remains online" ? osg only had a "normal" tech issue
[12:14] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: 3 hardives went and thats a tech issue?
[12:14] JayR Cela: haaa
[12:14] Bill Blight: that is a hardware issue
[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: 3? I thought they only lost 2.
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: yes arielle
[12:14] Bill Blight: they lost 2 but I think they preemptively replaced another
[12:14] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: why is throtteling back ?
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: earlier we spoke on how hardware of same batch does have some odds of fails at about same time
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: throttling was never removed.. can't be
[12:16] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: it seems to be worse though since osg came back up
[12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: I had two HD's of the same type bought at the same time. One already failed on me while the other is still going.
[12:16] Bill Blight: yes but would you be willing to take that chance with a whole grid?
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: stats are like that andrew
[12:16] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: It was an unusual situation for me.
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: but thing osg now did replaced all the disks preventively
[12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm currently fighting with mdadm to get some new drives configured before doing an HDD update on my machine.