Chat log from the meeting on 2018-07-03

Summary:
- Ubit announced the release of OpenSimulator 0.9.0.1 - the post-fixes
- development continues in a branch called httptests for now
- Throttles vs. heavy mesh avatars
- the new viewer option FSEnforceStrictObjectCheck is causing invisible meshes due to faulty parameters during the upload of those meshes
- abandoned projects on forge.opensimulator.org
- prims vs. meshes

[11:04] Eldovar.Lamilton @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: What happened to that other bench?
[11:04] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: what bench ?
[11:05] Eldovar.Lamilton @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: the line of orange and blue seats to the right of my avatar
[11:05] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: It is still there, Eldovar.
[11:05] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i see it
[11:05] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: i do see it
[11:05] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: and can sit on it
[11:06] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: rez thingies :)
[11:06] Eldovar.Lamilton @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: ok, maybe I didn't wait long enough :)
[11:06] Eldovar.Lamilton @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: sorry
[11:06] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: plaza is a bit slow
[11:06] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Sometimes things take a while to rez here.
[11:06] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: running the latest release
[11:07] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Welcome to the OS developer meeting, Cristoph.
[11:07] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: well latest release of opensim in 0.9.0.1
[11:08] Christoph.Balhaus @g1.h24g.com:8002: hi andrew
[11:08] Eldovar.Lamilton @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: Arielle, the French would disagree with the "same language"
[11:08] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: You put out a new release since I last checked, Ubit?  ;)
[11:08] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: just purists
[11:08] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: no just typo :)
[11:08] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: hehe, I realized that.
[11:09] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Even the person who made the release has trouble getting the version number right. :)
[11:09] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: but yes it does more or less match this osgrid release
[11:09] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: shh
[11:09] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: nah just that person keyboard :)
[11:09] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: That would be the main news for this week for those who didn't already know. Ubit released 0.9.0.1 this past week.
[11:10] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: Ubit assured me this is the post fixes release too
[11:10] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Links to the files are on the front of the main page of opensimulator.org
[11:10] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: it is basicly a fixes release so the tiny inc on version number
[11:11] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: exception to that is the bullet suport to raycasts and the mutesmodule
[11:11] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: but i did not want those to force a Release Candidate cycle alone
[11:12] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: The new release doesn't include those features?
[11:12] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: it does.. i mean they are the things not exactly bug fixes on it
[11:13] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Ubit, ok. You could have included a mention of them in the release note.
[11:13] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: i did :)
[11:13] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: ok. Last time I saw the release note it was a one liner.
[11:13] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: yes but since you had not time to improve it i did
[11:14] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: :)
[11:14] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: you recommend this release?
[11:15] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: well i made it... guess you need ask that someone else :p
[11:15] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: bc my answer is yes, of course
[11:16] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: well no as you are the one who made the release :)
[11:16] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Ubit, I wouldn't have remembered the mutelist module inclusion or the change to raycasts.
[11:16] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: my ao wont work here even after taking it off and putting back on
[11:16] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: if i knew major issues i whould had delayed it until a fix
[11:16] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: what do you consider major?
[11:17] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: opensim.exe <enter> KUBUMMMM
[11:17] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: :p
[11:17] TG.Lucan @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: scripts disabled here?
[11:17] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: hehe
[11:17] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: lol
[11:17] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: TG.Lucan, yes they are disabled here.
[11:17] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: we should move to a region where stuff works
[11:18] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: we are just guests here
[11:18] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: pfft
[11:19] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i am sure there is plenty of places that would allow full access to the region this meeting takes place in
[11:19] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: i may put a snapshot of 0.9.1-Dev bin online, not sure
[11:20] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: i mean on site to dwonload..
[11:20] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: good idea if you want some teesting done on it
[11:21] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: ( well ok i know its confusing being on a region that says 0.91Dev and talking about another 0.91Dev lol
[11:22] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: not really but ok :)
[11:22] TG.Lucan @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: You mentioned that you had changed (httptests) HttpServer_OpenSim but not the available sources? If true will the source be made available?
[11:22] TG.Lucan @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: @Ubit
[11:23] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: sources are at opensim-libs
[11:23] TG.Lucan @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: k
[11:24] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: actually the source missing on that is the version in use on master
[11:24] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: the one there is the httptests one
[11:24] TG.Lucan @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: kk
[11:24] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: why work on a branch you can't make into a master anyway?
[11:25] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: again that question ?
[11:25] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i haven't heard an answer
[11:25] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: it will be master
[11:25] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: its been asked and answered several times, IIRC.
[11:25] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: a year from now?
[11:25] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: with luck yes
[11:26] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: isnt that what you said a copuple meetings ago?
[11:26] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: yes and most like will boo on telling the same
[11:27] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: bc imediate solution
[11:27] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: no
[11:27] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: the .9.0.1 release has issues
[11:27] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: we do not have another machine
[11:27] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: so there will be no fixes for it for over a year ?
[11:28] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: i said that?
[11:28] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Arielle, just use the httptests branch.
[11:28] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: you said this was the post fixes
[11:28] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: not an RC version
[11:28] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: i had the idea we where talking about 0.9.1Dev
[11:29] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: that will require a full release cycle
[11:30] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: so another 0.9.0.X may still be released
[11:30] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: httptests will be .9.2
[11:30] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: ?
[11:30] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: or .9.1
[11:31] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: idea for not is 0.91.. lets see what time tells
[11:32] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: but well this is kinda academic.. no one really cares
[11:32] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: the ones on the .9.0.1 release will
[11:32] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: reading g+ anything is just better than 0.9x
[11:32] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: so why bother..
[11:32] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: whatever
[11:33] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: well you been told what the issues were
[11:33] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: yeah really ... those issues on g+?
[11:34] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: are you referring to a specific one?
[11:34] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: in fact most of them...
[11:35] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: recently there is only one i want to look in detail if possible
[11:35] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: but like always no mantis report .. nothing
[11:36] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: too often mantisses are either ignored or closed without resolutions
[11:36] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: you know about the slow loading avatar meshes in busier areas
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: that had got answers more than once
[11:37] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: your answer but no soluion
[11:37] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: so people go to a solution offered by others
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: stop making nonsense huge avatar meshes is a answer
[11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: A mantis should not be closed without some form of resolution. The message supplied when it is closed should tell you why the report was closed.
[11:38] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i have a complexity of 46k
[11:38] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: takes me 5 minutes to rezz to myself\
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: she his looking to some other mantis..
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: we only close things that are very old and outdated, even not all of those
[11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, right but the message provided when it is being closed would say as much.
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: or very simple and really "fixed"
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: but its typical g+ post also.. its cool to say Core ignores mantis :p
[11:40] Eldovar.Lamilton @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: brb .. RL interrupt
[11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, Are you having the avatar rezzing problem in all grids you visit or just some?
[11:40] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: osgrid
[11:40] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: most other grids can fix it outside of releases
[11:41] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: osgrid is stuck with master
[11:41] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: go to an event plaza when it is busy Andrew and you will understand
[11:41] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: or lbsa plaza even
[11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: If other grids have fixed the problem it would be nice if they were to provide the fix so it can be included in the main code.
[11:41] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: they have
[11:41] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: Ubit has it
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: "fix" is Arielle word
[11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, I don't think I'd see the problem you are having as I don't use a mesh based avatar.
[11:42] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: but you will see the issue on anyone who does Andrew
[11:43] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: avatar meshes are throttled in master so it takes ages for them to load to a viewer
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: the same way you see that issue at SL and made the lindens actually kill the damm things with the Jelly thing
[11:44] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i have mine set to no limit
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: that is the wrong answer
[11:44] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: to you maybe
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: they added that to mk sure you do get the good ones in reasonable time
[11:45] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: there has been plenty of testing of unthrottled meshes with no issues seen
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: and send to trash the damm bad ones
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: removing the limit is not a fix, is ignoring the problem
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: here or sl
[11:46] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i rezz much faster in any s/l region then i see avatars rezz in lbsa
[11:46] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: and the modified code rezzes even faster then s/l
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: are you comparing the amount of internet infrastructure linden labs has to the osgrid one?
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: get serius..
[11:48] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: when a viewer is set to a limit of 1500, the network has little to do wwith it
[11:48] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: anyone with a 2 MB download speed should have no issue
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll throw out this question/comment. If the mesh download throttle is causing a problem what is the throttle limit? Does it need some fine tuning?
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: yeah on servers that to not have that per user and also need to send higher priority data, or a avatar will not pass cloud stage
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: etc etc
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: bahh
[11:51] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: dont see those issues anywhere but on .8.2
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: 0.8.2?
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: textures are meshes are part of data with lowest priority
[11:51] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: what are you trying to save? The server or the user?
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: both
[11:52] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: the user crashes now because of the slowness
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: BS
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: a user does not crash because what others see
[11:52] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: or stands there for 20 minutes waiting for the other avatars to rezz
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: take that g+ talk to g+
[11:53] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: I'd really like to know what amount of data there is in a mesh-avatar ...
[11:53] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: less then on some prim hairs
[11:54] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: my concern is that new people will see this as a reflection of the quality of opensim
[11:55] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: they come to osgrid and see how long it takes to rezz and never come back
[11:56] TG.Lucan @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: what is the g+ channel called?
[11:56] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: prob here is that most in attendance have no idea what i am talking about because the issue was not on .8.2 nor even early versions of .9.0\
[11:56] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: you will mostly see in area where there are 5-10+ mesh avatars
[11:57] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: https://plus.google.com/communities/116284417302234467612
[11:57] TG.Lucan @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: thks
[11:57] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: thats the one he likely means but there are other places too
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: well any issues ( other than this? :p )
[11:58] TG.Lucan @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: I have seen that one, has a kind of commercial agenda, don't remember seeing tech discussions
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: any of you had the chance to see/test the 0.9.0.1 bin pack ?
[11:59] TG.Lucan @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Only test httptests and dev/master
[12:01] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: this is another where there is more techtalk TG https://plus.google.com/communities/100189142861137606972
[12:01] Christoph.Balhaus @g1.h24g.com:8002: well, a completely unrelated question: there were once a number of mostly obsolete or abandoned projects on forge.opensimulator.org. i remember Melanie moved some of them ... Are they still available somewhere?
[12:01] TG.Lucan @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: k
[12:01] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: :)
[12:02] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: i remember her mentioning she was going to upload them when she found them
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: no idea :(
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Christoph, Are there any projects in particular you are thinking about?
[12:03] Christoph.Balhaus @g1.h24g.com:8002: nope, but when you start a new project, i find it interesting to see what others have been done in the past
[12:03] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: there were some interesting ones on it
[12:04] Christoph.Balhaus @g1.h24g.com:8002: just to learn
[12:04] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: they are sort of community property....
[12:05] Christoph.Balhaus @g1.h24g.com:8002: maybe i should ask on the mailing list if someone made a copy...
[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Cristoph, good idea but you may get asked the same question about which module(s) you are looking for.
[12:06] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: should not matter Andrew
[12:07] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: some of those projects could still be relevant for those on .8.2
[12:07] Christoph.Balhaus @g1.h24g.com:8002: actually, i don't know, a list of what has been there would be nice ... i am mainly interested in work that has been done for xmpp modules and in the area of scripting
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: the new FS option FSEnforceStrictObjectCheck is causing some confusing, as expected, being set to true by default
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, only if someone saved all of them. Otherwise, you can check the web archive to see if a page can be found listing what used to be available.
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: that will make some prims invisible.
[12:08] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: melanie....a core dev....said she has them on her hardrive
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: prims that in past viewers did allowed to create with bad parameters
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: that never the less did work fine
[12:09] Christoph.Balhaus @g1.h24g.com:8002: ok thanks, i will try to ask her
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: so better set that option to false
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: that includes some meshes uploaded with 0.9.0.0
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: it does have a bug that will that the mesh base prim with parameters fs now does not like
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: should be ok now on 0.9.0.1
[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: A list of projects that used to be on forge can be seen at https://web.archive.org/web/20160617142438/http://forge.opensimulator.org:80/
[12:11] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: doesnt FS have a compatibility checkbox somewhere to allow seeing prims of .001 dimension?
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: FS devs are not suicidal ppl
[12:11] Christoph.Balhaus @g1.h24g.com:8002: ahh web.archive, i didn't think about that ... i will see what i find there :-)
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: ( well most the time :p )
[12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, FS has a search feature for its settings. If it has such a setting a search should help you find it.
[12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: Christoph, many of the projects were marked legacy as they were no longer in development or had not been updated in a long time.
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: that option does prevent some prims to reach the rendering engine, even if they currently don't cause issues ( so we can disable it )
[12:14] Christoph.Balhaus @g1.h24g.com:8002: yes i know, the code may still be interesting
[12:14] Christoph.Balhaus @g1.h24g.com:8002: i am aware that i can't use them as they are
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: guess in future a improved rendering engine will have issues.. so the option now.. but just guessing )
[12:15] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: improved would be more fault tolerant
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: NO
[12:15] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: :)
[12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Christoph, the webarchive is unlikely to have the actual files. You may have to do other searches to see if the code is available elsewhere.
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: fault detection is that option!
[12:16] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: bloody mesh wannabe purists
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: what mesh?
[12:17] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: the ones trashed or invisible because of a setting
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: about that option? i said prims not mesh.. those may have more checks..
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: but it is PRIMS
[12:17] Christoph.Balhaus @g1.h24g.com:8002: Andrew, yeah, but now i could ask for example specifically for the "JabberIMProxy"
[12:17] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: prims are mesh arent they?
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: yeap another g+ statement prims are meshes
[12:18] Christoph.Balhaus @g1.h24g.com:8002: anyway, a lot of it may be lost
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: NO THEY ARE NOT
[12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: Christoph, true.
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: they are converted into meshs before the rendering stage, after those checks
[12:20] Ubit Umarov: prims are decriptions of a object that contain parameters that can be decoded to generate a meshs for GPUs
[12:21] Ubit Umarov: or pointers to a sculpt map, or mesh asset that can also be decoded to produce a mesh
[12:21] Ubit Umarov: they are not meshes
[12:21] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: you could ask Dahlia about that one Chris
[12:22] Ubit Umarov: ( have more data also like textures color materials pointers etc )
[12:22] Christoph.Balhaus @g1.h24g.com:8002: thanks Arielle
[12:23] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: what does the decoding Ubit?
[12:23] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: prims to Mesh?
[12:24] Ubit Umarov: viewers
[12:24] Ubit Umarov: and physics engines for if the prim does not match a geo primitive they know ( like a true sphere)
[12:26] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: ok Ubit
[12:26] Ubit Umarov: but they are a very compact representation that alone without sculpt maps or meshs can represent a lot of chapes
[12:26] Ubit Umarov: as we seen before meshes on scultp maps.. and still see
[12:27] Ubit Umarov: on == or
[12:27] Ubit Umarov: credits to LL on that, well the prims we know.. others use similar ideas also
[12:28] Arielle.Popstar @grid.hgluv.com:8302: read they could be made even more complex