Chat log from the meeting on 2018-04-17

tl;dr:
discussion about hardcoded UUIDs for some inventory items
movement with LookAt active vs. LookAt inactive and impact on i.e. aiming a gun
different behaviour of internal animations vs. uploaded ones
dealing with a memory leak in robust under Mono 4.x
some users like the idea of negative z-values
current status of viewer development for OpenSim
visit of the sunken Titanic

[11:09] tx Oh: ubit, i may say thanks for the create user patch with empty uuid's
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: test it first LOL
[11:10] tx Oh: i did, it works
[11:10] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Now I have to redo my create user bash scripts ... LOL
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: so you did run httptests or did applied it to master ?
[11:11] tx Oh: i applied it to my own branch
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: ahh ok
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: cool it works :)
[11:11] tx Oh is very happy now
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: i also added code to try handle inv links, but you should avoid tham on models anyway
[11:13] tx Oh: ok, as i mentioned in irc before, i have the problem, that, when a user logs off the sim, i can't read the console via rest client, i get a econnreset (socket reset)
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: ( curret outif folder is a exception.. its generated .. )
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: and of course, there are the permissions issues..
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: so the models should be made from full FULL rights things, to avoid those
[11:14] tx Oh: it would be nice, if someone could test it o a different platform, because i'm a bit exotic with my hardware
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: and not using things on Opensim library
[11:14] tx Oh: ubit
[11:14] tx Oh: yes, i do that.
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: the library is kinda ugly and half broken
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: to start library is a region side thing. still
[11:15] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Would be nice if we could import our own library from an IAR on robust like we can on standalones ..
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: robust may not see it/have its assets
[11:16] tx Oh: ... and uuid's of bodyparts are hardcoded in clients. i get constantly requests on non-existent assets from singularity
[11:17] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I did talk to someone the other day that spun up a new test grid, and did not think they needed the Fallback service, with fsassets since they were new, but did not import the default asset set into fsassets and it was all kinds of ugly
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: yeap, we do need to review all that OpenSim library suport
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: it should be grid side ( except standalones) to easy fix those issues
[11:19] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Maybe revisit IAR import to custom library, works decent for stand alones
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: well and some of those hardcoded things not included on viewers also
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: ueap it kinad works region side, but not pratical to add new stuff on a grid
[11:20] tx Oh: yes, there are some hardcoded asset uuid's in opensim. get rid of them.
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: hardcoded on viewers
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: some basic textures for example
[11:20] tx Oh: both. viewers and opensim as well
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: funny enough viewers do include some special animations
[11:21] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Some need hardcoded, like built in anims, default prim textures, etc etc
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: and we can't do animations as those...
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: at least i did not found how
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: those aim_r animations
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: we can't make replacements for them
[11:22] tx Oh: i wish i had mono 5.1 or higher for httptess. maybe i compile my own version. could take ages on my little 4W thingy
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: those linden hardcode ones, included on viewers trigger a special movement motor
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: that makes aim work a lot better
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: on rotations
[11:23] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I'll have to keep an eye on memory usage. I use 5.10 to run my Standalone.
[11:23] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: you want mono 5.8 or higher, 5.1 and 5.2 hand some strange issues
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: thing is that avatar rotation has 2 parts.. body rotation and head rotation
[11:24] tx Oh: sure, if i compile mono myself, i go on master
[11:24] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I'm not seeing any of the reported "Memory Leak" but I startup with the parameters that Ubit and I hammered out
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: viewers move head first, body only if rotation is large
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: and head rotation is not done at least the aim animations i got from osgrid
[11:25] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: did you try uploading the linden anims and test them
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: the ll special animations trigger a motor that does head and body deformation on rotations so guns do aim better
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: i did, they do not work
[11:26] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: so we need a neck lock
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: that motor is only avaiable for those internal animations
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: yes.. using a uploaded anim, head locks
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: rotation is low resolution.. several degrees steps
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: well guess nothing new. i just had never looked and had a fight with it :p
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: there are more cases of internal anims triggering special motors and only those
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: AHh and for head movement to work, LookAt must be enable on viewers
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: the privacy option to not send them will kill guns aim as seem by others
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: and a nonsense.. lookat has special llupd messages unrelated to AgentUpdate
[11:30] tx Oh: i can use flycam to avoid lookat's
[11:30] tx Oh: :-)
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: bill does have lookat active :p
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: see how our heads don't move sitting ?
[11:31] tx Oh: i even don't activate these sensors. never.
[11:32] tx Oh: my flycam follows you now
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: see my head moving ?
[11:33] tx Oh: i see your breath
[11:33] tx Oh: now head moves
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: thats other motor .. the so called physics
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: let me rotate slowly
[11:33] tx Oh: your spine goes back and forth
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: look to head and body
[11:34] tx Oh: head stands still
[11:34] tx Oh: now your head moves
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: LOL i had lookat blocked
[11:35] tx Oh: ok, head moves first
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: body only rotates when rotation is large
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: head does the small rotations
[11:36] tx Oh: makes sense
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: but damm protocol allows a fundamental thing to be blocked by "privacy reasons" bahh
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: and should be part of main AgentUpdate packets, and it is not Grrrr
[11:37] tx Oh: just don't activate it.
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: if you don't activate it, your avatar rotations are low resolution
[11:37] tx Oh: i just deactivate the beam, because it is annoying
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: yes.. showing where ppl is looking should never have been added to viewers
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: now sitting using a custom animation.. Poff no head movement
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: damm bullet sits :p
[11:39] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: In RL you can see where someone is looking. I'm not sure why it should be such a big deal for a VW.
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: see sitting with the default internal sit anim ?
[11:40] tx Oh: thats what i think too, andrew
[11:40] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: agreed Andrew
[11:40] tx Oh: yes, it's the best sit.
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: i mean the crosses
[11:40] tx Oh: no restless leg
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: see my head moving ?
[11:40] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Yes. I see the head movement.
[11:40] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: its static and unnatural\
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: well that is a SL animations thing..
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: only the internal ones do work fine
[11:41] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Ubit is sitting on that cube with his feet at the mid-Z position of the cube.
[11:41] tx Oh: you just don't need to prioritize elementary bones.
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: well i don't know much about animations...
[11:42] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: ;)
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: but several special "motors" are only available to internal animations
[11:42] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: seen that in s/l
[11:42] tx Oh: now, fast head shakes
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: well some mice ops make head shake odd :)
[11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: camming around makes the head point in directions other than where one is actually looking.
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: well just shared something i did not know and had a fight with reviewing avatar updates sending
[11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: I appear to be looking left but my camera is looking towards me from behind the couch on my far right (behind Kayaker, etc).
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: well this has a lot on impact on guns aiming
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: shots do work well but we see the gun aiming to other direction and hitting us :)
[11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: Trick shooting, or a new way of being stealthy about your real intended target. ;)
[11:46] tx Oh: but aiming guns is best in mouselook, or not? and thats a complete own topic. right?
[11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: That would be a big problem in some RPG situations.
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: using the ll aim anims and lookat active the gun looks a lot more correct
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: this is a osg freebie
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: has a uploaded animation
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: seen me rotating ?
[11:49] tx Oh: no
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes.
[11:49] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: yes
[11:49] tx Oh: now
[11:50] tx Oh: the upper body
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: head frozen right ?
[11:50] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: yes Ubit
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: gun jumping several degrees right ?
[11:50] tx Oh giggles
[11:50] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: right again
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: ok let me try break the script here ::p
[11:50] George Equus duck
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill and Kayaker, which version of mono are you using with your grids?
[11:52] Kayaker Magic: I'm using the latest 5.x for testing on OSGrid
[11:52] Kayaker Magic: I'm working with a grid that is using 4.x to avoid the 50x slowdown bug
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm thinking of the grids where you had (or did not have) the memory leak in Robust.
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: string ANIM_AIM = "aim_r_rifle";
[11:52] Kayaker Magic: The memory leak grid is the 4.x mono
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: Uh oh. We have a dead body on the ground. Poor George.
[11:53] tx Oh: head moves first
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: changed?
[11:53] tx Oh: i think yes
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: and the body also deforms to gun does move also
[11:54] tx Oh: aim again
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, ok. Will have to compare that to what Bill uses. The only difference between your Robust.ini and Bill's is the use of GroupsServiceConnector and HGGroupsServiceConnector in the grid that is leaking memory.
[11:54] tx Oh: hmm.. i think the head goes first
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: right?
[11:55] tx Oh: but it's subjective
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: yes it does.. and it does move using that special anim
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Ah, George isn't dead. He's just sleeping. Possibly pining for the fjords.
[11:56] Kayaker Magic: The admin of that leaky grid is performing a binary search: splitting the different services of robust into different instances to find which service is leaking.
[11:56] tx Oh: yes, the upper body deforms a bit
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: aim up and down is also an obvious thing
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: you do see me aiming up down??
[11:56] Kayaker Magic: yes
[11:56] stiofain mactomais: so i did a bit of an informal survey during the week a few grid admins said they had probs with negative z but only because users had abused it eg one had a -3000 deep pit every one of users i asked agreed it was a useful feature even if they didnt use it and the general consensus was that it would be great if it was available as an ini edit
[11:56] tx Oh: yes
[11:56] Arielle Popstar: i dont see that
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: now a gun with a uploaded anim again
[11:57] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: well if they are still using mono 4.x there were memory leaks all over diff sub builds of 4.x
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: well this one is broken lol
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: freebies :p
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: ok going to aim up and down
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: seen me aiming up and down ?
[11:59] Arielle Popstar: no
[11:59] tx Oh: no
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: that it.. the issue
[11:59] Arielle Popstar: were you in mouseloook?
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: even if you get a copy of the ll aim anim and upload, it will not work
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: yes i was
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: ok lets go back to the one i just changed
[12:00] Kayaker Magic: The built in animations have some automatic logic to switch between holding and aiming as you go in and out of mouselook.
[12:00] tx Oh: the thing is, if you touch the wrong bones in the anim (spine...) than you overwrite the natural animation
[12:00] Kayaker Magic: That logic is broken for the bow animations, works OK for pistol and rifle.
[12:00] Ubit Umarov flüstert: seen aiming up and down ?
[12:01] Arielle Popstar: yes
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: ok that is the thing
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: that only works on the ll special animations that have hardcode uuids checks
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: the head and body special motor only works on those
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: on http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Internal_Animations
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: you can see more special motors
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: not avaiable to inworld builders as far as i know
[12:03] tx Oh: see the priorities? these are important!
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: uff the time i spent asking "why i hell aim updown does not work :p) using this osg freebie :)
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: yes they do matter also.. and loop
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: of course.. nothing we can do region side on this.. its viewers hardcode and missing parameters and protocol to do it better for all anims
[12:06] tx Oh: stiofain asked some grid admins about -z support and came with the .ini boolean suggestion. is that fair?
[12:06] stiofain mactomais: so i did a bit of an informal survey during the week a few grid admins said they had probs with negative z but only because users had abused it eg one had a -3000 deep pit every one of users i asked agreed it was a useful feature even if they didnt use it and the general consensus was that it would be great if it was available as an ini edit
[12:06] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: now the new question , how is the updated bulletsim and ubODE going to handle negative Z for physics
[12:07] tx Oh: well.. work with an offset could be a thing. fake -z.
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: That is also a question for the person who works on BulletSim
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: my concern is more viewer side.. how for example shaders work on light or worse how they will work in future etc
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: since sl spec is z > 0
[12:08] tx Oh: viewers are my concerns too..
[12:08] Arielle Popstar: cant control what the viewer devs do
[12:08] Arielle Popstar: nor s/l
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: regions code we can change
[12:09] stiofain mactomais: shaders never worked at -z but wasnt a big deal
[12:09] Arielle Popstar: yes i wouldnt expect it to
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: well not usefull to have things at z < 0 if all dark :p
[12:10] Arielle Popstar: it wasnt on stio's build from what i remember
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: guys.. just understand that opensim did had some features that do not work well with sl viewers
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: and so we need to fix, even if breaking things :(
[12:11] tx Oh: stiofain: why can't you manage a patch for -z?
[12:11] stiofain mactomais: was no prob u just got a note to untick basic shaders no one complained
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: ( shaders where only a example )
[12:11] Arielle Popstar: there have been a few things sorted in viewers to allow for opensim features\
[12:12] Arielle Popstar: 4096 bug, Hypergrid, mega regions, vars
[12:12] tx Oh: but how many viewers are still commited to opensim? even imprudence/kokua left...
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: ohhh ohhhh shaders coders on tpvs ?? not that many
[12:13] Arielle Popstar: FS and sing both are
[12:13] tx Oh: really?
[12:13] Arielle Popstar: and if one dev patches, most others will also adopt it
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: i only see a viewer dev messing with shaders
[12:13] tx Oh: their priorities are sl first, i guess
[12:13] Arielle Popstar: yes
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: ( and they do not care much about opensim )
[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: I thought FS wasn't that bothered about OS these days and development on Sing was mostly stalled.
[12:14] tx Oh: singularity is best for mesh uploading.
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: fs seems to only care about ONE opensim grid
[12:15] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: FS tends to support the one grid they love, and SL, don't see them adding any support for "New" things
[12:15] Arielle Popstar: i can barely use sing without it crashing on me but partner swears by it
[12:15] tx Oh: which one grid is that?
[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: I mostly use Sing.
[12:15] Arielle Popstar: LF
[12:15] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Littlefield
[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Haven't heard of that grid before.
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: alchemy is the only one that openly says that suports opensim
[12:16] stiofain mactomais: fs choice of home in opensim has stalled dev a lot i think
[12:16] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: LFG has been around quite a while
[12:16] tx Oh: andrew, but singularity keeps me grey or a cloud till i manually rebake
[12:16] Arielle Popstar: FS sucks for hypergrid addressing
[12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Too many grids to keep track of them all.
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: well that i see.. kokua seems no more.. they had kikuaOS.. not sure its state now
[12:16] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: yes LF refuses to update at all , they are quite happy where they are, but that is their choice, so can't really knock it ..
[12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: tx, ok. I don't have that problem all the time. Just sometimes. I came in ok today.
[12:17] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: KokuaOS is dead
[12:17] Arielle Popstar: except mac version?
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: well and fs does occasional fixes for that special 0.8.x version
[12:17] Arielle Popstar: wasnt IMA working on the windows version?
[12:17] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: they will not be supporting anything but the Mac version moving forward
[12:18] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: IMA talked about it, working on it, no, never happend, and I doubt it will
[12:18] Arielle Popstar: nod
[12:18] tx Oh: this can be a big problem in the future
[12:18] tx Oh: ima?
[12:18] Arielle Popstar: well a lot of it was due to relational issues between ops and viewer devs
[12:19] Ubit Umarov: blablabla
[12:19] Arielle Popstar: not because viewer devs expressely did not want to do ops stuff
[12:19] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: the talk of "taking over KokuaOS" before even talking to any of the Kokua devs really hurt, and caused them to even pull the source code for a while ..
[12:19] tx Oh: what or who is ima?
[12:19] Ubit Umarov: human relations have ups and downs.. projects should try to get above those
[12:19] Arielle Popstar: infinite metaverse alliance
[12:19] Ubit Umarov: see me and arielle  :P
[12:20] stiofain mactomais: metaverse alliace?
[12:20] tx Oh: oh, thats new to me
[12:20] Arielle Popstar: ;P
[12:20] Andrew Hellershanks: tx: They have been around for a while now. They have also been mentioned here before.
[12:20] Ubit Umarov: now arielle is always kicking me.. but i know she loves me :p
[12:20] tx Oh: :-)
[12:21] Arielle Popstar: mmm forgive, forgive forgive
[12:21] George Equus: http://www.infinitemetaverse.com/
[12:21] Andrew Hellershanks: I was going to ask how Arielle can kick Ubit from four cushions over
[12:21] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:21] George Equus: can't say I remember... but seen logo b4
[12:22] Arielle Popstar: the idea and intent was great
[12:22] Andrew Hellershanks: You would have heard of them at the OSCC.
[12:22] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I was at one time a member of IMA, bad mojo .. personal opinion
[12:23] stiofain mactomais: seems to have alienated a lot of ppl .... similar to LFG
[12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: We are getting close to a half hour past the usual time people start heading out. Any last minute comments before we wrap up todays meeting?
[12:24] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: If anybody wants my personal opinion on IMA they can ask me in private, because what I have to say is not polite in public ..
[12:24] stiofain mactomais: ok just to let u kno before end we decided to go back to 8x for titanic but wud much prefer to use 9
[12:25] Ubit Umarov: ( btw the shaders example mb not right.. i thing it is.. but not that sure )
[12:25] Arielle Popstar: Stio, i thought there were older versions of .9 that still worked?\
[12:25] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002 waits for the point when .9x robust will no longer work with .8x sims
[12:25] tx Oh: stiofain, make your own -z branch and cherrypick the new stuff
[12:26] Ubit Umarov: ( viewers are optimized for SL regions and normal postions..., making rendering etc, more generic has performance costs,, so its avoid )
[12:26] stiofain mactomais: above my [pay grade tx
[12:26] Arielle Popstar: people use .8 with .9?
[12:26] stiofain mactomais: ari yea but was other prob with 9
[12:26] Ubit Umarov: ( the old clouds fixed at 200m z is a example of that )
[12:26] Arielle Popstar: there are other ways to circumvent the performance which you havent taken advantage of so its a moot point\
[12:26] tx Oh: stiofain, give me a landmark. i like to see it.
[12:26] Andrew Hellershanks: stiofain, have those other problems been reported in a mantis?
[12:27] Andrew Hellershanks: I see a region called titanicbelfast.
[12:27] stiofain mactomais: thats it andrew
[12:27] Andrew Hellershanks: I see what could be four smoke stacks in the south east quadrant.
[12:28] stiofain mactomais: geo u still have working one up?
[12:28] tx Oh: on osgrid
[12:28] tx Oh: ?
[12:28] George Equus: nope but can fix that
[12:28] stiofain mactomais: yea osg
[12:28] tx Oh: yes. see it on the map. i will see it :-)
[12:29] stiofain mactomais: andrew the smokestacks are the only prims with z above 0
[12:29] Andrew Hellershanks: ok
[12:29] stiofain mactomais: sytops loading after them
[12:29] Arielle Popstar: what version is it running on now Stio?
[12:29] stiofain mactomais: stops
[12:30] Andrew Hellershanks: That's going to do it for this week.
[12:30] stiofain mactomais: OpenSim 0.9.1.0 Dev OSgrid 0.9.1.0 (Dev) 1e3cb82756: 2017-11-17 (Unix/Mono) last working version
[12:30] Ubit Umarov: did you try loading the oar with a z displacement ?
[12:30] Andrew Hellershanks: Those of you who want to can meet up again by the Titanic. :)
[12:30] stiofain mactomais: last working one OSgrid 0.9.0.0 (Dev) 90d88f2: 2016-08-28
[12:31] Arielle Popstar: how recent is that?
[12:31] stiofain mactomais: am not sure ari
[12:32] stiofain mactomais: z displace isnt aesthetically pleasing looks real bad
[12:32] Arielle Popstar: so it is broken now?
[12:32] stiofain mactomais: yea
[12:32] Ubit Umarov: how so ??
[12:32] Arielle Popstar: ok lets go look Ubit
[12:32] stiofain mactomais: ok great
[12:32] Arielle Popstar: no sense asking what is the prob when you can tp there and look
[12:33] Ubit Umarov: i do understand the issue..
[12:33] Arielle Popstar: lets go look at the issue
[12:33] Arielle Popstar: get off my head
[12:33] Ubit Umarov: im always on your head :p