Chat log from the meeting on 2017-08-08

[11:01] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: HG: OS 0.9.x may be close to release. It won't automatically mess up your mesh https://virtualoutworlding.blogspot.com/2017/08/2017-help-hg-os-09x-may-be-close-to.html
[11:02] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: relevant article
[11:02] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: @Selby as long as you use the Bullet Physics Engine / wich is the default YES.....
[11:03] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: hope this gets the info out
[11:03] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: if you choose ubODE there is quite a bit of current content in OpenSim that will render as Phantom
[11:04] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Yes, like I said
[11:04] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: I don't think that can be fixed
[11:07] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: The text in the chatlog may be a bit different -- there may have been some edits
[11:07] George Equus: Been using ubODE for a long time now, np, Tried Bullet yesterday, broke a LOT for me.. hmmm
[11:07] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Personally have not used bullet for about a year
[11:08] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: I was lucky I only broke two pieces of mesh on my grid when I started using 0.9 ubode. *phew*
[11:08] Carious.Lordhunter @thedestinygalaxies.com:8002: love ubode.
[11:10] George Equus: Suppose my issues is fixable , but will need a scripter to help me  :)
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: hopefully robert will be able to do some work on bullet soon
[11:11] James atLLOUD: sounds funny to me that the physics engine breaks the mesh. Isn't the mesh already 'broken'?
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: like the reported issues and better handling of physics shape type
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: physics engines do not change meshes.. they only use them
[11:11] Arielle Popstar: "broken" is a term used for mesh uploaded in what is considered to be the standard method
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: ( they may change the physics shape type stored on inventory )
[11:12] Carious.Lordhunter @thedestinygalaxies.com:8002: broken?.... reupload it with ubode running....it gets fixed if it's good mesh.. works fine.
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: NO NO NO sorry
[11:12] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Standard Opensim method of the the past Arielle, not standard for the rest of the world
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: physics engines take no part on the upload process
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: its all viewer options basicly
[11:13] Arielle Popstar: is there anything besides mesh to discuss?
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: what the mesh will do when rez.. that is physics engine.. not the upload
[11:13] Carious.Lordhunter @thedestinygalaxies.com:8002: nods and nods......so ... good mesh... physics engine can then make a collision matrix around it.
[11:14] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: As to "broke" I refer you to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantics
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: well not much code changes last week
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: a few minor changes on our wiki
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: like on http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Mesh
[11:15] Arielle Popstar: it is the small code changes that make for the most discussion
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: removing wrong reference to collada
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: and making that acessible from main page ( via content creation )
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: since it was there without any reference to it
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: same for the RC2 download
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: now also visible from main page
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: guess those where my major last contributions :)
[11:18] Arielle Popstar: any one have an idea of how many grids still on .8.2 and how many active accounts on them?
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: hmm did remove one or two null refs also
[11:18] Arielle Popstar: suppose Metro the largest of them
[11:18] Arielle Popstar: Kitely
[11:18] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: 3rd Rock is still on 8.2
[11:18] Arielle Popstar: digiworlds
[11:19] Misterblue Waves: it takes friggen forever for meshes to load
[11:20] Misterblue Waves: since so many avatars are going mesh, people are just floating parts until everything is loaded :)
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: well and meshs here were done by aaack
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: not the worse we can find on opensim :)
[11:20] Arielle Popstar: i am still not so impressed with how mesh works in the viewers
[11:21] George Equus: Question: do the simulator still report is version? I use a statistic script (Arcadia's Simulator Statistics Indicator) but for the past three versions it does not give the version, The other info given still work.
[11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Hey, Misterblue. Nice to see you again. Some physics related topics came up the past couple of weeks when you weren't here.
[11:21] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Chatlog from Kitely meeting delivered -- If you did not get one, ask me
[11:22] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: You might need to recompile that script george
[11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: George, I always run an extra command after building Open Sim to create a .version file that is used to state the version of code being used.
[11:22] George Equus: done. no change Bill
[11:22] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: hmm
[11:22] Misterblue Waves: I had a long talk with UBit yesterday... his complaint is that BulletSim does not handle PhysicsShapeType=CONVEX
[11:23] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: my stats scripts seem to be working, but I'll take a look when I get home to make sure ..
[11:23] Misterblue Waves: I've added that to my list
[11:23] George Equus: script apparently ubiquitous, just re used by Arcadia
[11:23] Arielle Popstar: does not handle?
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: ( was a bit more than that MB.. but we didn't finished talking ;) )
[11:23] Misterblue Waves: http://blog.misterblue.com/2017/2017-08-07-Bullet-Version-Upgrade-And-Build-Tasks
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: yeap : •generate convex shapes if PhysicsShapeType is set to CONVEX.. its bit more than just this
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: but details..
[11:25] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Thanks George, I'll look at that, I think I have one of those, but maybe different version ..
[11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Misterblue, ToDo lists never seem to get that much shorter.
[11:26] George Equus: I currently use sim posted Aug 6 but the error was introduced three versions back
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: hmm what error ?
[11:27] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: We were talking about a stats script not working right Ubit
[11:27] Arielle Popstar: MisterBlue- is there any intention to stop Bulletsim from using the viewable mesh for a collision map if there is no Physics one uploaded?
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: hmm don't remember recent changes on that.. but well who knows..
[11:27] George Equus: Arcadia's Simulator Statistics Indicator top info on sim version do not display any more Ubit
[11:27] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: OHHH
[11:27] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I know what that is
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: osslEnable changes ?
[11:28] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: George, some dynamic texture things changed .. and that displays on dynamic textures
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: IPs hiddin from non gods
[11:28] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: ubit broke dynamic textures ... LOL
[11:28] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: :P
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: error that :)
[11:28] Andrew Hellershanks: hm... I don't have my prim stats script in this grid
[11:28] Misterblue Waves: Arielle: I think BulletSim uses the physical mesh if one is specified... if it doesn't, that is a bug and, if you have a test case, I'd fix it
[11:29] George Equus: Does not all info display on dyn textures? the rest show fine
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: she was asking about the use of visual LOD:. and i can answer.. bullet may have it as a option
[11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: George, do you know what call is being made in the script to get the OS version number?
[11:29] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Bullet does not appear to use a physics model even if one is provided ... but I have no bullet sims to test on anymore
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: it will need to no do it, to proper suport physics shape type changes and viewers
[11:30] Arielle Popstar: if it doesnt then bullet should be reading it as NONE or default to convex vs the .8.2 version where it used the viewable mesh?
[11:30] George Equus: Andrew, I can't script so probably would not be able to figure that out  :)
[11:30] Misterblue Waves: let me check... but BUlletSim should use the physics mesh if supplied but fall back to the visual mesh if no physical mesh is supplied
[11:30] Arielle Popstar: yes fallback to visual
[11:30] Misterblue Waves: the fallback was implmentented way before LL had finalized meshes
[11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: If you are allowed to pass the script along I can have a look.
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: bullet Switch on physics shape type is not that good .. is part of what me and MB talked and will talk more
[11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: George, ty
[11:31] George Equus: apparently a common script around for a long time..
[11:31] Misterblue Waves needs a talking to :)
[11:31] Arielle Popstar: LL still uses some fallback to visual on simple meshes
[11:31] Andrew Hellershanks: George, it is using osGetSimulatorVersion().
[11:31] Arielle Popstar: according to a wiki Ubit sent me a link to
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: but bullet does use a mesh if one is provided for physics
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: ( ie if PRIM is there )
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: just if you play with changing physics shape type.. it will do odd things eventully
[11:32] Arielle Popstar: Ok well Bill mentioned in a recent post that it falls back to visual even if there is a file provided
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: that is OLD news
[11:33] Misterblue Waves: I don't think BulletSim looks at the PhysicsShapeType variable at all.... that's the functionality that needs to be added
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: yeap
[11:34] George Equus: Here it seems to fail on all tapes... mine only the top most
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: that was introduced with the merge with ubOde
[11:34] Andrew Hellershanks: George, that OSSL function is enabled for everyone by default so I don't see any immediate reason for it to have stopped working.
[11:35] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: it was the changes to the dynamic textures that were made a few commits back that caused a lot of things with dynamic textures to not work ..
[11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: Oh. The script is throwing an exception due to the use of osGetSimulatorMemory.
[11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: George, that is the problem with the script.
[11:35] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Or I should say not work correctly ..
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: lets be clear on changes in dyn textures i made a mistake
[11:36] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Ubit = Ubrokeit
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: that can cause texture rotation offsets etc on prims to be lost
[11:36] Carious.Lordhunter @thedestinygalaxies.com:8002 chuckles
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: if you did run that bug version, you need to review those settings on the prims
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: even color :p
[11:37] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: or rez a brand new copy from the original source
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: or that
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: fixing a bug. made another lol
[11:37] George Equus: OK, . I was rather surprised only top didn't work, rather expected all to either work or not...
[11:38] George Equus: will try to fix it with info given tonight  :) Thanks
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: you can add a few llSay to see if ossl is getting the information
[11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: George, the osGetSimulatorMemory function is restricted (by default) to estate managers and estate owners.
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: ie display the text you are sending to the dyn texture
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: if ok.. then review that prim face texure settings
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: bc yes.. i broke it :p
[11:40] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: hmm Ubit Umarov = Ubit Ubrokeitall
[11:40] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: :P
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: this one of the things i did broken :p
[11:40] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: hehe
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: dan found it immediatly :)
[11:41] George Equus: Either this is an involuntary side effect due to a bug, or it is "by design" and script need to be modified... All I can do is report the fact.
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: from what i remember. at most osslEnable
[11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: I use dynamic textures as part of a shopping mall directory sign. If dyn textures are (temporarily) broke that will be a problem for me.
[11:42] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: It was a bug introduced in a fix, and since has been fixed, but IF your item was rezzed and working during the bug, then it will not "fix itself" as it lost the params
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: on ossl IPs where made visible only for gods
[11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: IPs??
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: yes Andrew user IPs
[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: oh. IP addresses.
[11:43] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: osGetAgentIP
[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: I think there was some recent discussion about that function.
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: think osslEnable has comments about those
[11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: It says -> functions ThreatLevel Severe with additional internal restrictions
[11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: It also states restricted to Administrators.
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: Administrators. means GODs
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: we should ban the word GOD from all code
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: bc it is not a culture neutral work
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: for some it is a ABSOLUTE
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: and we really don't need to be on that polemic
[11:46] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: if you changed that it would be a dependency between viewers and code, but in theory I agree ..
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: ) work above was word )
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: well was a bad LL move
[11:47] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: yes
[11:47] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: don't disagree
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: they forgot cultural issues all around the world
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: it is not a neutral word
[11:47] Arielle Popstar: they should have used lower case then? god
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: possible.. better better not use at all
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: bc we are actually talking about administrator rights.. not god
[11:48] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: they are after all administrators not actual Gods
[11:48] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I'm kind of partial to Overlord myself ... LOL
[11:48] Arielle Popstar: it is descriptive in the english language of a certain level of ability
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks grins at Bill
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: but well for most of us its just a word..
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: en is only part of the world
[11:49] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: words are just that words, the human connotation attached to them is the issue.
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: and i do type admin where in past ppl would type god
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: that's the problem Leighton.Marjoram that is not for all
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: for some there are absolutes
[11:50] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: just make it HBIC (Head Bitch/Bastard In Charge)
[11:50] Arielle Popstar: have to be politically correct
[11:50] James atLLOUD: I blame gamers
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: and not words are not neutral
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, you need auto-correct to save yourself some typing (ie. type god, autocorrect to admin)  ;)
[11:50] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: i thin Admin is the most widely used
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: and some words
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: actually even in christianity
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: it is forbiden to use the name god
[11:51] Arielle Popstar: not god
[11:51] Arielle Popstar: yahweh maybe
[11:51] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: its not politically correct to use the right word, Gods in Opensim are admins. The use of the word god is not necessary.
[11:51] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: yes not god, only God ... if you are so inclined
[11:51] James atLLOUD: how about uberuser?
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:52] James atLLOUD: lol
[11:52] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: kinda a moot point
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: well just a detail
[11:52] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: as I said I am partial to Overlord or HBIC
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: i did had a fight once bc of that
[11:52] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: :P
[11:52] Arielle Popstar: its like why worry about it?
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: bc it does matter actually
[11:52] Arielle Popstar: no it doesnt
[11:52] Arielle Popstar: only if you make an issue of it
[11:52] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: Because to some it is something to worry about ...
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: YES IT Does Matter
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks grins
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: it is a kind of fight opensim has no need to be in
[11:53] Arielle Popstar: another principle?
[11:53] Arielle Popstar: we have enough to fight about :p
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: sure a minor issue for all of us here
[11:54] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: and its one that can be sidestepped by just not using the word God, it is a loaded term and there are other more functional words without the cultural baggage.
[11:54] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Arielle to some people it matters very greatly, and many take offense to it ...
[11:54] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: then it doesnt exclude people
[11:54] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: over a simple word choice
[11:54] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: I have never used it
[11:55] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: I dont even know what it is
[11:55] Arielle Popstar: Bill the Christian god's name is Yahweh or jehovah. God is what he is not his name
[11:55] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: so / OH Well
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: i even asked the opinion of a us pastor here at osg
[11:55] Arielle Popstar: lets fight about mesh or permissions
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: his answer was clear.. it is wrong
[11:55] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: and for him so it should be, it is sacred after all.
[11:56] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: might not be for me but being culturally sensitive doesnt hurt
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: his what to call ? religion is just tolerant to uses other do of words
[11:56] James atLLOUD: cows anyone?
[11:56] George Equus: Admin is global in computing, meaning full rights and access to everything, isn't it? And perfectly neutral
[11:56] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: nods @George
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: so yeah.. it is a issue so fix in time
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: George, or sometimes also referred to as the root user.
[11:56] Arielle Popstar: depends how much breakage comes as a result of switching the name
[11:56] George Equus: Not too keen on GOD either...
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: it was a LL mistake... but lets go on
[11:57] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: that is definitely a consideration @Arielle
[11:57] George Equus: Was about to also include root as a possible word for this
[11:57] George Equus: :))
[11:57] Arielle Popstar: i am opposed to linux so no roots
[11:57] George Equus: Enough of this..
[11:58] George Equus: root beer maybe?
[11:58] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: Root Beer Float hmmmm
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Any other Open Simulator topics for today?
[11:58] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: most grids are opposed to Windows, soooooo that is not a valid argument ... LOL :P
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: I missed out on the free root beer from a local fast food chain just over a week ago.
[11:58] James atLLOUD: Maybe 'rick sanchez' will become a synonym for god
[11:59] Arielle Popstar: only because Linux is cheaper on hosts
[11:59] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: no not only, it is ONLY for people who don't understand Linux
[11:59] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: i am not sure the price is the only reason
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: It isn't that Linux is cheaper. If you use Linux you don't have to pay the monthly fee to use Windows.
[11:59] Arielle Popstar: cant be because of mono
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: well and we fallen into another religion discussion lol
[12:00] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Mono is fine, if you know what you are doing
[12:00] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: Grins @Ubit
[12:00] Arielle Popstar: be doing politicvs next
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: Linux/windows, cost aside is religion
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: :p
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: both are crap.. end of discussion
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: lol
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, true. People are free to choose what they want to use.