Chat log from the meeting on 2017-07-04

[11:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: are you finished changing the ODE code, ubit, so I can build a new macOS binary for you? :-)
[11:01] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: i never finish breaking things :)
[11:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hehe
[11:02] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: btw take a look to http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=8204
[11:02] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: when u have the time
[11:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I am not so sure that is a good idea
[11:03] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: i've no idea :)
[11:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: replacing UUID (native datatype) with a 128 string is not a great idea
[11:04] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: doesn't sound like one no
[11:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but I'll check it out
[11:05] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: ok and tell something there
[11:05] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: plz
[11:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: right
[11:05] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: and thx :)
[11:06] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: hmm seems andrew is lost in ugly rl
[11:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: July 4, but he is maybe not american?
[11:07] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: ohh kidnaped by those aliens u think?
[11:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I was more thinking drunk and celebrating
[11:08] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: :)
[11:09] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: well for many this day is more about those 2 movies than anything else :p
[11:11] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: hmm we don't actually have an independence day
[11:11] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: a reason is that no one does remember the date :p
[11:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you can always break out of the union and make a day for it
[11:11] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: lost in the dust of more than 800yrs
[11:12] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: hmm we do have the date when a pope finally did accept it.. but no one really cared
[11:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we had a battle in the year 872, but nobody knows the day
[11:13] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: guys MB is here today.. u can kick him :)
[11:13] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: about the bullet issues
[11:14] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: well we also had a battle that was relevant to our indenpency and not one knows where it was or even precise date :)
[11:14] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi JR -- Watching your sailing developments
[11:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they know where it was
[11:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but we celebrate May 17 of 1814
[11:15] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: we do have a location name...
[11:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: when will OpenSim have an independence day?
[11:15] JayR Cela: s not Sailing / is HydroPlane racing
[11:15] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: ok
[11:15] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: but that location today is a village some 500km behind enemy lines...
[11:15] JayR Cela: much more exciting
[11:16] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: not a very reasonable place...
[11:17] JayR Cela: I am using one of Bill Blight's Var Sims with ubODE and it is KickAss
[11:17] JayR Cela: also I vave some Sims on TheKazGrid using Bullet
[11:18] JayR Cela: and they work rather well
[11:18] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: LOL wiki is so funny portugal Founded: October 5, 1910
[11:18] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: LOL
[11:18] JayR Cela: i personally prefer the ubODE physics
[11:19] JayR Cela: the crashes are very realistic
[11:19] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: err region crashs ??
[11:19] Misterblue Waves: ubit is good at crashing ;-)
[11:19] Kayaker Magic: crashing boats, or crashing viewers?
[11:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002 grins
[11:19] JayR Cela: when the boats crash into something
[11:20] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: ahh ok
[11:20] Total Sorbet: good crash lol
[11:20] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: well ubOde crashs usually are nice also
[11:20] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: SEGMENTATION FAULT
[11:20] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: directly to the OS :)
[11:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: kernel panic
[11:21] JayR Cela: yes the physics are on par with a current video game console quality for the most part and it makes it fun
[11:21] Total Sorbet: nice.. no point messing about
[11:21] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: wel and i did had a total win7 crash :=
[11:21] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: had to press to power btn to restart.. all dead :)
[11:22] JayR Cela: I am not a Windows person
[11:22] Total Sorbet: whats windows?
[11:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ubOde with BOD - added bonus
[11:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: actually ubOde has the alternative capitalization of uBODe
[11:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you need to change the name
[11:23] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: :)
[11:24] JayR Cela: we have some real problems with Sim Border Crossings in OS 0.9 RC with ubODE however Bullet is working
[11:24] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: or u Bode ( bode means Goat)
[11:24] JayR Cela: and I know every one here will tell me to just use a Var Sim...
[11:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[11:24] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: hmm what problems?
[11:25] JayR Cela: however we are trying to solve a problem rather than just sweep it under the rug
[11:25] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: btw why did u use normal size regions on a naval simulation ?
[11:25] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: that sounds a good use for var regions
[11:27] JayR Cela: I am not the owner of the Grid / so She has her own reasons that are beyond me
[11:28] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: ohh ok
[11:28] Total Sorbet: buy tazer make her see sense :)
[11:28] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: bc no matter how good.. crossings are always.. well crossings :)
[11:28] JayR Cela: oh yes I agree
[11:28] Total Sorbet: yh i use 5x5 var for water racing sim
[11:28] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: and on racing
[11:29] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: they may add unfair things
[11:30] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: bc crossing conditions mb not exactly the same every time
[11:30] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: faster for some.. slower for others
[11:30] Kayaker Magic: In RL there are waves, unexpected things in the water...
[11:31] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: like lost cargo containers etc :)
[11:31] JayR Cela: I tried a huge 8x8 with Bullet on 3rdRockGrid / it was very slow
[11:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I don't think the viewrs will be too happy with 8x8
[11:32] JayR Cela: @ Gavin / yeah
[11:32] JayR Cela: was really slow
[11:33] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: hmm thats 2km ? i did test that size.. seemed to work ok
[11:33] JayR Cela: mabey with ubODE / but with Bullet it is not good
[11:33] Kayaker Magic: Loading tht much terrain takes a while on the viewer
[11:34] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: well yes i mainly only test ubOde :)
[11:34] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: do fire bullet occasionaly only
[11:34] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: when there are changes that may have impact on it etc
[11:34] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: or to compare etc..
[11:35] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: of course.. you always need to keep in mind vars are about more area.. not more prims!!!
[11:36] JayR Cela: I have a question about ubODE and why do some of my collected objects suddendly turn to Phantom when we change the Physics Engine from Bullet to ubODE ?
[11:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I see the same
[11:37] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: mesh upload options issues i guess
[11:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: items that has no explicit physics model does that
[11:37] Arielle Popstar: used to be a fix=phantoms command
[11:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: meaning autogenerated
[11:38] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: different issue arielle
[11:38] JayR Cela: well it is a pain in the ass
[11:38] Ubit.Umarov @hg.osgrid.org: it is mainly mesh upload options
[11:38] Arielle Popstar: but perhaps could be reistated to resolve?
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: reupload the mesh with the correct options :p
[11:39] Arielle Popstar: may not be a choice
[11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you have a region with mesh items that had the physics generated on upload, they turn phantom when you start the region wit ubODE
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: 2 bad then
[11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you originally uploaded them with a separate physics model they are ok
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: in same cases some can be fixed adding prim colliders
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: well lets say bullet did not handle physics shape type that well
[11:40] JayR Cela: I have just been placing invisi prims
[11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that becomes very tedious for large builds
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: we are keeping some of that on 91 bullet for compatibilty
[11:40] Misterblue Waves: if a mesh doesn't have a collider layer, BulletSim assumes the displayable shape for collisions
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: but ubOde will do it as specs..
[11:41] JayR Cela: @gaven / yes it does
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: ( as it always did )
[11:41] Arielle Popstar: must be a way around it
[11:41] Misterblue Waves: ubODE doesn't have a collision shape if there is no collision mesh in the mesh
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: if there is no such shape.. it is not suposed to collide with high res
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: that is a builder option at upload
[11:42] Arielle Popstar: does ODE?
[11:42] Misterblue Waves: ubODE does it the way SL does it -- if no collision shape, no collisions
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: yes ODE uses same rules as bullet
[11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: too easy to say for uploads that happened years ago
[11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you have to provide compatibility between models if you want adoption
[11:43] Arielle Popstar: nod
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: yeap thats why we will not fix bullet
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: so old things working on it should still work
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: BUT
[11:44] Arielle Popstar: whose specs btw?
[11:44] Misterblue Waves: are everyone's complaints/problems with BulletSim in Mantis?
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: i noticed that on 82 things set to type none on bullet still do full res collisions
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: and they will not collide on 91
[11:44] Misterblue Waves: I'm going to spend some time on BulletSim in the next few weeks and want to fix what's reported
[11:45] Arielle Popstar: my main prob with bullet is not being able to walk upstairs very well
[11:45] Kayaker Magic: Yes Misterblue, how goes the debugging on Mantis 8010?
[11:45] JayR Cela: Kool
[11:45] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: when you have done the updates, I want us to build a 64-bit macOS version MB
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: well it you look on viewers edit features tab
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: Physics shape
[11:45] Kayaker Magic: Not calling collision events on some collisions in that mantis.
[11:45] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: now that mono is shipping Universal
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: viewers fill the options there reading the mesh
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: so if there is no PRIM.. that object should not do high res collisions
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: if you set NONE ( on child prims) physics should not even know about that part
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: and CONVEX should use a simple convex collider viewers always add to meshs
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: also on firestorm you can actually the the physics shape the mesh contains
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: singu has the option.. but broken
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: again.. viewers do read the mesh...
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: on bullet you will see that in same cases there is no relation btw collisions and the shape viewer shows as selected
[11:49] Misterblue Waves: Gavin: that would be great! I don't have an Apple build environemtn
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: and that is worse on 82
[11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I still have all your previous work
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: now there a few other diferences on ubOde.. but only more advanced builders making own meshs for physics will see it
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: another thing about upload, valid for all opensim
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: avoid the physics STEP 2
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: that does a mesh simplification, and converts it to another format
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: ie does convex decomposition
[11:51] JayR Cela: avoid the physics STEP 2 / why is that ?
[11:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Kokua also will render the physics Develop -> Render Metadata -> Physics Shapes
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: so you may end up with a mesh with closed holes etc
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: also
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: that is TONS of math
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: and viewers for opensim use a tool not as good the the one used on sl
[11:52] Arielle Popstar: so what are the advantages of UBode4 over bullet to the average user?
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: so even more problems..
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: see ?
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: well ubOde is just better than bullet on almost everything
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: COFF COFF COFF
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: ;)
[11:53] Misterblue Waves: BulletSim will do convex decomposition on a mesh if it does not have a physical format specified
[11:54] Ubit Umarov flüstert: ( mb this was a cue for you to defend bullet :) )
[11:54] Arielle Popstar: it will break mesh builds for the average user
[11:54] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and that is a once off process MB?
[11:54] Kayaker Magic: Ithink Ubit meant: IF you avoid the physics step 2 then you will get mesh simplification. So don't avoid that step.
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: no i did said AVOID it
[11:55] Misterblue Waves: once per object load... it does cache them so rezzing and derezzing is not a load
[11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: physics step 2 in the viewer does not work for OpenSim
[11:55] Misterblue Waves: but you'll see it sometimes when you sit in a complex vehicle -- the sim seems to freeze for a second or two
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: step 2 may break your meshs
[11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: either upload a collision model or don't touch it
[11:56] Kayaker Magic: Ah, but you should always do physics step 1.
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: yes you need step 1 to have PRIM option
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: ( but not all meshs actually need PRIM option )
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: some meshs are just 2 large to be given to physics
[11:57] Misterblue Waves: some vehicle designers fake a physics shape for their vehicles by creating a linkset of a phantom mesh body with invisible, physical cubes and spheres inside
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: and you can add prims as colliders
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: see cars for example
[11:57] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: create a simple mesh cube and use it as the physics model
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: no no
[11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you can use it for a surprising large range of items
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: dont' do a cube MESH
[11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: why not?
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: let me show you the BEST colliders on ubODE and bullet
[11:58] Arielle Popstar: lot of do's and don'ts sounds like
[11:58] Misterblue Waves: prim cubes and spheres are highly optimized in both physics engines
[11:58] Arielle Popstar: i am lost already ;)
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: see them ?
[11:59] Kayaker Magic: y
[11:59] JayR Cela: yes
[11:59] Misterblue Waves: that's because the phsyics engines can know they have regular shapes and not have to do all the vertex comparisons -- just the dimensions of the known shape
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: those 2 are physics engines basic shapes
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: they do them using fast math
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: specially the sphere
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: the best by far
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: replacing this by a mesh is a mistake
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: note TRUE sphere x = y = z
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: box can have x!=y!=z.. same load
[12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: a cube is 6 quads whichever way you cut it
[12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or 12 tris
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: yes but not even done as quads
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: physics do not break this in quads
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: a sphre is a point and a radius
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: a box is a point and a vector
[12:03] Kayaker Magic: That is good to know!
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: and this is in ubode, ode, bullet, havoc havok or physX
[12:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so if you use a 6 quad physics model the engine is not able to covert it to a point and vector on upload?
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: there is another primitive
[12:03] Kayaker Magic: (not a torus, I'm betting)
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: look the box takes almost the same time to collide as a single triangle
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: well just a bit more
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: see ?
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: there is another primitive shape viewers do not suport
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: so i will use 3 prims to show it
[12:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not possible to convert it to a native primitive on upload?
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: ok see it?
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: that is called a capsule
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: and it is the shape used for avatars
[12:06] Misterblue Waves: Gavin: it is possible to do that conversion but the code does not exist anywhere at the moment
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: this is also a fast collider
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: slower than sphere
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: but faster than the box
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: just at the moment we can't use it on prims
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: something i may change in future
[12:07] Misterblue Waves: that's usually called a 'capsule' and it is often the physical shape of an avatar
[12:07] Kayaker Magic: Might be useful for vehicles...
[12:08] Misterblue Waves: BulletSim is using a cube for avatar physical shape at the moment for performance and walking reasons
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: nothing bets the performance of this 3
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: on any engine
[12:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: MB a dae with a cube in it should have a very distinct footprint that can be detected and swapped for the more efficient native?
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: we don't have that now gavin.Hird
[12:08] Misterblue Waves: I agree Gavin... just that the code hasn't been written
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: you will get what you asked :)
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: an idea i have is extend physics shape type
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: to add this 3 shapes
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: PRIM CONVEX NONE BOX SPHERE CAPSULE
[12:10] Arielle Popstar: Misterblue can you do something to fix stair walking in bullet so it performs similar to Ubode?
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: thing is that we also need size and orientation :)
[12:11] Misterblue Waves: I will look Arielle... could you made a Mantis that describes what you see as the differences?
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: possible easier to just add a prim inword on a type none
[12:11] Arielle Popstar: i have a build with a lot of stairs
[12:11] Arielle Popstar: I will try Misterblue
[12:12] Misterblue Waves: BulletSim has a specialized code to try and make stairs work... seems that it needs work :)
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: most time stairs can be just a ramp
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: for physics
[12:12] Arielle Popstar: i have to walk up side to side to approach each stair at an angle
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: bullet stairs code needs tons of love :p
[12:13] Total Sorbet: prim staircase arielle?
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: ubOde is better on that now