Chat log from the meeting on 2017-02-07

[11:03] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Hello, everyone
[11:05] Basil Sosides: last week was good !
[11:05] Basil Sosides: no problems on my regions
[11:07] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I haven't done much with OpenSim this past week. I've spent a lot of time helping someone recover some lost inventory items
[11:09] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: I submitted a new Mantis yesterday!
[11:09] Basil Sosides: i mean the latest version, it works...XBakes in Funktion again
[11:09] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Kayaker, what was the topic of that report?
[11:09] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: #8127, list fetch functions (eg llList2Vector) are dog slow.
[11:10] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: The other list2 functions are ok?
[11:10] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: No, ALL of them are dog slow.
[11:10] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: ok
[11:10] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: all the fetch routines, I didn't test creating lists.
[11:11] Marcus Llewellyn grumbles something very nasty about lists in general.
[11:11] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: I discovered it was faster to re-do a dozen rotation calculations than to store results in a list and fetch them.
[11:11] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I have a couple of mantis to file. Between recovering lost items and upgrading my system to latest Linux Mint I've not had time to do so.
[11:12] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: It is unacceptable that lists are implemented this way, C# has a native dictionary object that I'm told is blindingly fast.
[11:13] Sheera Khan: and could we possibly get real arrays ?
[11:13] Sheera Khan: preferably multidimensional...
[11:13] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: No, that is a feature request, I'm asking for a minor change in implementation
[11:15] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Although if lists used the native C# hash tables, you could fake multidimensional arrays in LSL and it could be fast.
[11:17] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: What Mantuses are you submitting Andrew?
[11:17] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I'll have to do some digging in to how some of the LSL types are implemented. In LSL_Api.cs I just see the LSL_Vector declaration.
[11:17] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Something that appears to be a memory leak in Robust is one of the items.
[11:17] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: The other is duplicate output when using the "show asset" command on the console.
[11:18] Marcus Llewellyn: I wrote my own associative array (dictionary) functions in LSL just to avoid lists. They of course depend on lists, are more than a lil kludgy, and are hardly fast. But I don't have to deal directly with lists anymore.
[11:20] Marcus Llewellyn: So that's why I have to restart robust every once in a while, and thing get slow.
[11:20] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: Nifty Marcus
[11:21] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I've seen Robust using over 15G of RAM.
[11:22] Marcus Llewellyn: Have you been able to narrow it down to a specific service/module?
[11:22] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I haven't had time this past week or so to do any debugging of it.
[11:22] Marcus Llewellyn: Ah, righto.
[11:23] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: It is a fairly recent problem. Only noticed it since I updated to latest git master from the one I had been running of a couple months or so earlier.
[11:23] Marcus Llewellyn: At least I know it's not just me or my config. lol
[11:23] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org nods
[11:23] Marcus Llewellyn: I can cron a robust restart until it's resolved now that I know.
[11:25] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: My question for the day is this: What is the status of the Export permission bit in inventory items?
[11:25] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I have to restart Robust about every 3 days to prevent it from using up all the memory on the computer.
[11:25] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: I ran into someone last week who thought it should work, but I thought it was un-implemented.
[11:26] Marcus Llewellyn: I just have a teensy personal grid, and robust is on an old core 2 with 2 gigs of memory. Hehe. So I'm running into that issue every couple days.
[11:27] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: That's a good question. I don't think it was implemented but that could have changed with all the recent work on the permissions code.
[11:27] Marcus Llewellyn: I *think* the export perm has to be explicitly enabled? I could be horrible mistaken though. And TPV support for it is definitely going to vary.
[11:27] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Marcus, I have it running on a grid. I've seen Robust using around 24G of RAM before I restarted it.
[11:28] Marcus Llewellyn: I'd comb through OpensimDefaults.ini for mentions of the export perm. That'd prolly answer a few questions.
[11:29] Marcus Llewellyn: Andrew: I first noticed it when my robust machine partcially came to a screaming halt during an apt-get upgrade.
[11:30] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Kayaker, I've asked about the Export feature in IRC. If I hear from someone before the meeting is over I will let you know what I hear.
[11:31] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Can someone explain how the Suitcase works? When I am at my home grid and copy something into it, it is still on my home asset server. Then I HG to someplace else and rez a copy, is that when it is read from my home asset server into the remote grid?
[11:31] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: It seems to me that is the moment when export permission tests would be done.
[11:31] Marcus Llewellyn: Mu understanding is yes, unless it has been chached. But I'm FAR from an HG guru.
[11:31] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002 flüstert: Ha! I'm just guessing!
[11:32] Marcus Llewellyn: Hit up Diva for an authorative answer, for sure.
[11:32] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: When I put something in my suitcase at the remote grid, does it get copied onto my home asset server at that moment?
[11:32] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Kitely does export perm test when you put it in the suitcase.
[11:33] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: if not export, won't go there
[11:33] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Kitely also "filters" items that don't have COPY and MOD or ownership
[11:35] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: There was a crowd-funding project at ?digiworldz? once to hire someone to implement Export permission, but it apparently flopped after the money was promised.
[11:36] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002 flüstert: Anyone have more details?
[11:37] Marcus Llewellyn: Melanie and Siana Gearz were responsible for the Export checkbox you see in most viewers now, I believe. Like I said, I don't think it's enabled on sims be default, and may not even be in OpenSim.ini. That's why I'd look through OpenSImDefaults.ini for possible "hidden" settings to transfer to OpenSim.ini.
[11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, I just got a reply from Melanie about the Export bit.
[11:39] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Yes?!
[11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: During her recent work on the permissions code she added more support for it. It is likely not complete but its a bit further.
[11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: That's the lastest information about it.
[11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: I was also looking at the implementation of LSL_List and it is an array of 'object'.
[11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: I will have to do a bit more looking at the code to get the more complete picture of how lists are handled and how their implementation may be affecting the llList2foo functions.
[11:42] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: The interesting question is how are items found in the array when you call the llList2 functions.
[11:43] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: From my timing tests, it must be for (i=1;i<INF;i++) if (this is the one) return(this one);
[11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: The index is used as an index in to the array used to hold the list of items..
[11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: If the performance of the routines can be improved I expect it won't be done until after 0.9 is released.
[11:47] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Getting back to export, I take it that Kitely's "filtered grid" code is not part of normal OpenSim?
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: I would say it is not part of OpenSim as I don't even know to what that refers. Is that something you see on the Kitely marketplace website?
[11:49] Marcus Llewellyn: Kitely's marketplace export != OpenSim's export permission.
[11:49] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: If you try to take something out of Kitely that you didn't create yourself, or if if isn't COPY MOD, then you cannot HG out.
[11:50] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: If it had the Export bit in the Kitely Market, you can also HG out with it.
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: Marcus, ok. Good to know. They don't explain that very well. I was thinking of selling something on Kitely marketplace but I didn't want to set the Export perms on the object and have someone be able to take it to any grid they want other than the grid the items is dellivered to when the sale is made.
[11:51] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: But that bit and the export bit in the viewer dialogs are not connected, don't work together.
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, that is what I wondered about. If that is the case I may have to think about whether to sell on Kitely and if I did, I'll have to increase my prices.
[11:52] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Yeah, don't tell the SL content creators, it is the Wild West out here!
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: Kitely needs to provide information about having an items "marked for export". Where is the item marked for export and what can be done with it once the items is delivered to a grid.
[11:53] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: You can sell on Kitely market either for export or not. If not, the item is not supposed to go out of the grid where delivered. I don't know how that is enforced
[11:54] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: There is a conspiracy theory that Kitely will never help to implement the Export bit in OpenSim because once it is there people can set up stores in-world in Kitely and the Kitely Marketplace will loose a lot of buisness.
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: I wouldn't expect it to affect the marketplace that much. Sales inworld in Kitely would be in their local currency that can't be converted to RL $.
[11:57] Simulator Version v0.5 ruft: OpenSim 0.9.1.0 Dev 056ccae: 2017-01-27 21:43:25 +0000 (Unix/Mono)
[11:57] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Unless someone makes a vending machine that takes PayPal directly....
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: That could be done now if someone wanted to do so.
[11:58] Marcus Llewellyn: It's been done here on OSgrid. Thought I don't know anyone offhand who stuck with it.
[11:58] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: @Selby: if an item isn't marked for export in Kitely marketplace it isn't supposed to leave Kitely
[11:58] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: you can't deliver those items to foreign grids
[11:59] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: OK.
[11:59] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: that's how I understood the Kitley marketplace export
[11:59] Marcus Llewellyn: Maria Korolov has some interesting data on Kitely marketplace sales in her OSCC presentation. Might be giving a quick watch.
[11:59] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Yes, but as Andrew pointed out, if you do mark it as export, once it leaves Kitely there is no way to prevent it from being carried to another grid, and another, and another
[11:59] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: that's right Kay
[12:01] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: There will have to be "next owner" rules for export in OpenSim when it is finished. So you can set to to export once, but not after that.
[12:02] Marcus Llewellyn: Thats would be nice.
[12:03] Marcus Llewellyn: And on that note? ;)
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: It is that time again. Any last minute items for todays meeting?
[12:04] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: checking Kitely market, I find an item not marked for export, but seems I can send it to another grid
[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Selby, the question is what can happen with an item if marketplace has the item set to export it to another grid.
[12:06] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: I don't thing that is true Selby, the only place an export bit does actually work is in that market.
[12:06] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: ok -- will ask Ilan, maybe
[12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, Marcus said that kitely export flag is not the same as the OS item one so that leaves it a bit up in the air.
[12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Selby, if you do ask someone at Kitely you can let the rest of us know what you find out at the next meeting.
[12:07] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I will tell anything I learn
[12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: ty
[12:08] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: I'd like to see a diagram showing asset servers and region servers and when things are copied from one to another.
[12:08] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Diva is the person to bug about figuring that out?
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: That sounds like documentation. That is a scarce commodity. :)
[12:08] Marcus Llewellyn: For anything HG, diva is the man.
[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: If there is nothing more for today, I'll call this meeting to an end.
[12:10] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: EOM (End Of Meeting)