Chat log from the meeting on 2016-11-15

[11:00] Sheera Khan: Neb? May I ask what the network bandwidth of the server for this region is?
[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: well 100Mb/sec
[11:01] Marcus Llewellyn: This region is just upsettingly full of content. LOL! It's a load test all it's own, and has been used that way sometimes.
[11:01] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Hm... nebadon got here before me today. :)
[11:02] Sheera Khan: I very rarely get more then about 2 MBit/s here even when I'm alone. Maybe there are other regions on this server though
[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: we throttle
[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: wouldnt be wise to let any one person suck it all up
[11:02] Sheera Khan: ah ok :-)
[11:07] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hey Nebanon, I'd like to talk to you about OSCC, when would be a good time?
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: anytime is good, todays meeting will mostly be focused on OSCC
[11:08] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: I'm a speaker and I would like to be able to rez objects during my talk.
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: ok
[11:08] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Is there a group I can get invited to for that?
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: you will need a local account for that
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: for it to be reliable
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: but yes I think so you will get details about that
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: Joyce can fill you in more
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: Rhiannon == Joyce
[11:09] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Sheera, it looks like you missed the seat cushion and are sitting on, or rather in, the couch.
[11:09] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: OK, I'll ask her.
[11:09] Sheera Khan: not for me Andrew ...
[11:09] Rhiannon.Chatnoir @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: hi there, think I missed the question, but please message me
[11:09] Sheera Khan: better now?
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: but ya it shouldnt be a problem are these objecst heavy in nature, any unusual scripting or anything?
[11:10] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Sheera, no. Its the same.
[11:10] Sheera Khan: looks the same to me though...
[11:10] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Same again. oh, well. Don't worry about it. Couch is misbehaving today.
[11:10] Sheera Khan: today?
[11:10] George Equus: Look fine to me Sheera
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[11:11] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: That position is a bit better, Sheera
[11:11] Marcus Llewellyn: It's an old couch. The springs may have sprung. ;)
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: ya looks ok here Andrew probably hasnt gotten the AO animation yet or something
[11:11] Sheera Khan: I hoped for the updates to make it to your viewer ^^
[11:11] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Sheera, :) It has been a while now since I've sat over there.
[11:11] George Equus: I was lucky today, managed to sit on first try  :)
[11:12] Sheera Khan: UDP kann miss out some packets...
[11:12] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: This past week there have been a lot more commits to the main code. ubit has been keeping busy again. :)
[11:12] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Serene Jewel in Kitely sends a big hug to all the developers.
[11:12] Melanie Milland: yes and i have permission fixes in the pipeline
[11:13] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: 25 items on the shortlog on GIT - wow
[11:13] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Melanie, great. I know some people waiting for those.
[11:14] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Changing perms while item is still in inventory and perms on passed items are the two main issues I'm aware of.
[11:15] Melanie Milland: yes
[11:15] Sheera Khan: Kay: Greetings back to Serene - I got a support call from her but she was offline by then :-(
[11:15] Melanie Milland: chaging perms in inventory is broken for "box" objects
[11:15] Melanie Milland: basically anything that can be rezzed or attached rather than worn
[11:15] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Nebanon, I'e had a booth in OSCC for two years, and there are some scripts I've left running there the whole time, but many (not all) of them suddenly stopped running recently. What is going on over there?
[11:15] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: BTW, there was a list of bugs and regressions in the OS wiki. Most of them are marked off as fixed or need to be checked. Has anyone looked at that list recently?
[11:15] Melanie Milland: and passing objects reduces the container object's perms to theperms of the content
[11:16] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: It would be worth actually checking to see if several of the issues have actually been fixed, or not.
[11:16] Melanie Milland: wthe person who snuck that patch past me through justin was one of those who were of the (wrong) opinion that the perms of the container object, when rezzed, should match the (aggregate) perms shown in inventory listings
[11:16] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Melanie, that can be a problem depending on how that is handled.
[11:17] Melanie Milland: there are actually people who argue that current buggy behaviour is more onsustent and should be kept
[11:17] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: For example, I put a no mod item (usually a script) and a mod NC in an object then pass the object to another user I still want them to have mod perms on the object itself.
[11:17] Melanie Milland: but of course that would break existing content as well as breaking a lot of options
[11:17] Melanie Milland: like having no mod scripts in an object but allowing to edit a config notecard
[11:18] Melanie Milland: so that needs to be fixed because it pretty much forces scripters to opensource everything
[11:18] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Yes, that is the behaviour I would expect.
[11:18] Melanie Milland: of course, some people dislike perms and would like to force everything opensource
[11:18] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: sometimes perms protect the user
[11:18] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I had that problem in 3rd Rock when I tried to sell a vendor. The person who bought the item couldn't modify the contents of the vendor because they received the vendor with no mod because there was a no mod script in its contents.
[11:19] Melanie Milland: yup
[11:19] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: That's a problem.
[11:19] Melanie Milland: my original code was correct but that other person changed it
[11:19] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org nods
[11:19] Melanie Milland: because they were one of those who believed that SL had it wrong
[11:19] Melanie Milland: and that the world should be as they wanted it not as ll designed it
[11:20] Melanie Milland: by the time i noticed it, the patch was too far back in time to revert
[11:20] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Yes, I remember you saying that.
[11:20] Melanie Milland: the point is that there are three distinct cases of permission propagation
[11:21] Melanie Milland: and each is slightly different from the others
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: hello Robert, thanks for coming :)
[11:21] Marcus Llewellyn waves to Robert.
[11:21] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I'd love to see a summary of how perms do (or should) work. If the doc is out there somewhere I haven't found it but Ihaven't gone digging through the LL or OS sites enough to see if such a thing exists.
[11:21] Melanie Milland: that person thought the differences unimportant and aimed to reduce code duplication
[11:21] Robert Adams: hello all... a little late :)
[11:21] Melanie Milland: by combining these three cases into a single one
[11:21] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: np, Robert.
[11:22] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I noticed a place in the OS code onece where it stated that two cases in the code should *not* be combined.
[11:22] Melanie Milland: andrew, there is probably no one who knows that in all it's depth and breadth but the people at LL and mysef
[11:22] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Should have had a note like that for the perms issues. :)
[11:22] Melanie Milland: and i don't have the time to write the required 50 page treatise
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:22] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: :)
[11:22] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: The job isn't done until the paper work is finished. ;)
[11:23] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: yea, that would take a while to get written down.
[11:24] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: Could the code somehow notify object creators of the status of nested perms?
[11:24] Melanie Milland: well, a girl needs to eat so i won't be able to do it unless someone pays me for it
[11:24] Melanie Milland: james, not beyond what is already discernible
[11:24] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org flüstert: ok ty
[11:24] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: This past week I spent a little time going through the avn code dump changelog. I did a bit more work towards summarzing it. I started with a little over 2,000 lines to go through and I'm down to a bit over 1900 now, IIRC. Long way to go but at bit more progress at least.
[11:25] Melanie Milland: the reason is that perms are not only present and ivorced from the object in it's inventory item, but also contained within the XML
[11:25] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: wow
[11:25] Melanie Milland: and that isn't accessible without decoding it, a nontrivial task with things like large meshes
[11:26] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: I can only imagine Melanie, thanks.
[11:26] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I'll be happy if I can sell items with no mod scripts in them and have the recipient be able to still have mod perms.
[11:26] Melanie Milland: theoretically, one could create a json representation of nested obkects
[11:26] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: on the object that is.
[11:27] Melanie Milland: the code for that is there, it's in the oar archiver's UUID harvester
[11:27] Melanie Milland: the bit that looks through scripts and notecards for references to additional assets
[11:27] Melanie Milland: it decodes an object completly
[11:27] Melanie Milland: it's expensive to do, not a routine operation
[11:28] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org nods
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: so as everyone knows, OSCC is coming up fast
[11:29] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: We are at the halfway mark for the meeting. We have a guest here today who can provide us with the latest information on the OSCC.
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: http://conference.opensimulator.org
[11:29] Rhiannon.Chatnoir @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes, thanks Neb
[11:29] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: @perms - hmm, I believe it. Wonder if there could be a way for a more restrictive child perm to percolate up during design rather than be analyzed later.
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: Ubit and Andrew I hope you guys can sit in on the dev panel
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: Melanie, Diva, Robert and Myself will be for sure
[11:30] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: nebadon, It all depends on the day and time.
[11:30] Rhiannon.Chatnoir @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes, will be the kick off panel for the conference, taking place at 7AM Pacific on Saturday Dec 10
[11:30] Marcus Llewellyn: Dec 10, 7am pacific
[11:31] Marcus Llewellyn: Ninja'd
[11:31] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: That should be ok for me. I'll make a note of it.
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: great
[11:32] Robert Adams: that works for me
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: of course we will need to be there a little earlier than that
[11:32] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: ok, its in my PDA with a reminder alarm.
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: for preperation
[11:33] Rhiannon.Chatnoir @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: great, if those that are taking part in the dev panel, if I can get your email, I can send you info, and also would be great to get a short bio/blurb too
[11:33] Simulator Version v0.5 ruft: OpenSim 0.9.1.0 Dev b6329fb: 2016-11-12 14:07:40 +0000 (Unix/Mono)
[11:33] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Rhiannon, you should have my info from last year.
[11:34] Rhiannon.Chatnoir @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: great, yes if you registered or spoke last year we should have that
[11:34] Rhiannon.Chatnoir @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: thanks!
[11:34] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Rhiannon, you also have me in Skype.
[11:35] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: I forget, does the dev panel take place in public?
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: I assume we are still looking for some volunteers and such?
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: yes its at the Keynote, and will also be streamed
[11:35] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: and recorded, IIRC
[11:35] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: OK, ty Neb
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: yes Marcus is doing some great stuff with the stream team this year
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: maybe you can paste URL to your videos marcus
[11:36] Rhiannon.Chatnoir @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes it is the kick off to the conferece, does get streamed and also is in the main auditorium
[11:37] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: Marcus has mad OBS skillz
[11:37] Rhiannon.Chatnoir @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: there is also a Q&A we do a few hours after that, for attendees to ask questions. So you can also take part in that...would be similar to someone coming here to ask
[11:37] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I'll have to find my info from last year to see if anything needs updating.
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: http://conference.opensimulator.org/2015/speakers/
[11:38] Marcus Llewellyn: All the recordings should be available on Youtube shortly after the conference.
[11:38] Rhiannon.Chatnoir @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: and, yes, if you would like to volunteer during OSCC, that would be fantastic! We need folks for things like greeting fokls,moderating if you do not mind being on voice in a skype call, building, or streaming during
[11:38] Rhiannon.Chatnoir @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: let me grab that link
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: there is last years info
[11:39] Rhiannon.Chatnoir @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: thanks Neb, yes that is useful to see what last years dev panel was
[11:39] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Nebadon, thanks. I had just found it. :)
[11:39] Robert Adams: Rhiannon: are you getting my PMs? (never sure if the HG chat stuff works)
[11:39] Rhiannon.Chatnoir @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: and for those who can volunteer http://conference.opensimulator.org/2016/staff/call-for-volunteers/
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: HG chat IM's should work fine
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: I logged into the grid to get several of them today heh
[11:40] Marcus Llewellyn: If your interested in knowing when recordings are available, your best bet is to subscribe to AvaCon's YouTube channel. https://www.youtube.com/user/avaconinc
[11:40] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Apart from the panels I was on last year I attended at least three of them that I didn't want to miss as they sounded interesting (and were).
[11:41] Rhiannon.Chatnoir @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: just replied to you Robert, sorry...juggling a few IMs too :)
[11:41] Rhiannon.Chatnoir @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: also, if you want to host a social / community event around OSCC, we can add you to our overall schedule that attendees will see http://conference.opensimulator.org/2016/community-event-sign-up/
[11:42] Rhiannon.Chatnoir @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: so if you want to host an event say here in OSgrid somewhere, or even invite folks to office hours the Tuesday after OSCC.. we can add those events
[11:42] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Here is notecard with some info
[11:43] Rhiannon.Chatnoir @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: just has to make sure not to schedule something during the presentations time if you want to be added.. Conference is Sat and Sun Dec 10-11, from 7am to 6pm PT
[11:43] Rhiannon.Chatnoir @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: and feel free to email me too with any info joyce.bettencourt@avacon.org
[11:44] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: One event that would be interesting would be one for grid owners and/or their tech support staff.
[11:45] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Nice to meet each other as long as they don't see each other too much as rivals. :)
[11:45] Marcus Llewellyn: I'd like that. Submit it as a presentation proposal next year. ;)
[11:45] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I was thinking of it as a social event.
[11:45] Rhiannon.Chatnoir @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: and last year, we had social, music, dance, but also tours of presenter builds,and some extra presentations fokls held around OSCC
[11:46] Marcus Llewellyn: Ah, I see.
[11:46] Rhiannon.Chatnoir @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: so yes,could be cool something likethat
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: The Grid Owners Ball :)
[11:46] Marcus Llewellyn: GOB
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: haha
[11:46] Rhiannon.Chatnoir @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: or self host it and fill out that event form and we will put on the calendar as taking place around OSCC http://conference.opensimulator.org/2016/community-event-sign-up/
[11:46] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Grid Owner/Operators Ball -> GOOB :D
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: well the whole OSCC even is pretty much just that
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: I know OSgrid will have a booth again this year
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: I am not sure about other grids though
[11:47] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Nebadon, they may be around but it is knowing when/where to find them.
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: hopefully a lot of those people show up and mingle with the crowd
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: yea a lot of them will have their tags
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: hopefully anyway
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: Kitely and Metro usually have a bunch of folks show up
[11:48] Rhiannon.Chatnoir @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: the nice thing, is we use a schedule tool, that we put all the main conference presentations, along with those extra social / community ones, and add to that. Then folks attending can see them, and even get reminders if they want
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: its hard to keep up with all the grids now a days
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: there are so many
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: but if you know people please spread the word
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: pass around the URLs
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: Marcus did you post your videos?
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: you can share those on your social media feeds etc..
[11:49] Marcus Llewellyn: Which videos?
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: your promo vids
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: are we using those?
[11:50] Marcus Llewellyn: Oh, I did post the promo one on G+
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: oh i meant here
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: for everyone to see
[11:50] Marcus Llewellyn: I should prolly tweet it too.
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: i dont have the urls handy
[11:50] Marcus Llewellyn: One moment, I'll dig up the link
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: thanks
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: you guys can share these on your various platforms of choice :)
[11:50] Marcus Llewellyn: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2e8lweakKE
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: thanks
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: that reminds me
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: i need to make a new git video
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: I will try to do that today
[11:51] Rhiannon.Chatnoir @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes Marcus has done some great video work.. and all in Blender, which amazes me
[11:51] Marcus Llewellyn: Of course you do. :D
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[11:52] Marcus Llewellyn: I did the promo, which is done. I'll also have an animated sponsor roll, as well as "Up Next" rolls for each presentation
[11:54] Marcus Llewellyn: This year, rather than having the streamn go offline between each presentation, we're aiming for a continuous stream with interstitial videos.
[11:54] Rhiannon.Chatnoir @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: the conference will be open to hypergrid travelers, and you can also register to attend, there is a crowdfunder to help cover some of the costs, and also with perks like expo space on the grid http://conference.opensimulator.org/2016/register-now/
[11:54] Marcus Llewellyn: I'll basically be sitting in the middle of the streamers and the streaming service and acting a a director of sorts.
[11:55] Rhiannon.Chatnoir @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: nod, and if you want to help stream, Marcus and Mal Burns will be training folks.
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: How are we looking on overall volulnteers?
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: anything we are particularly lacking in?
[11:56] Marcus Llewellyn: moar streemerz
[11:56] Rhiannon.Chatnoir @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Also, we have tools like a camera hud that James worked on, and training on how to stream that Marcus worked on that we will be sharing after
[11:56] Marcus Llewellyn: James' HUD is awesome.
[11:56] Rhiannon.Chatnoir @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes more streaming folks would be good, if you have the bandwidth, we can train the rest :)
[11:57] James atLLOUD: james' hud remains undelivered, but it's close
[11:57] Robert Adams: the people on the panel will just need voice capable viewer/equipment?
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: ya skype
[11:57] Robert Adams: k... have that, too
[11:57] Marcus Llewellyn: We use Skype to handle all audio for presentations.
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: that is why we will neeed to show up a little bit before 7am of course
[11:58] Marcus Llewellyn: Although if we do a VIP Q&A like last year, that'd use inworld voice.
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: to make sure we are all connected and everything is plugged in correctly
[11:59] Rhiannon.Chatnoir @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes, to get past Vivox limitations and crossing over regions, we broadcast the skype call similar to DJs using the audio parcel stream
[12:00] Rhiannon.Chatnoir @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: so the OSCC presneters get pulled into a Skype call, that is broadcasted for folks to hear in world
[12:00] Marcus Llewellyn: Also avoids audience members with open mics. :P
[12:00] Rhiannon.Chatnoir @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: but yes, the Q&A after is in local voice and chat
[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Any other questions or comments about the upcoming OSCC?
[12:03] Marcus Llewellyn blinks.
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: yea we are at the end of the hour here, any further questions?
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, that was going to be my next question if there was nothing more about the OSCC. :)
[12:04] Rhiannon.Chatnoir @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: you can always ping me later if not via this avatar, in email joyce.bettencourt@avacon.org or I am JoyceBettencourt in skype
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Rhiannon, Thank you for attending todays meeting and giving us an update on the conference.
[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: If there are no other topics for today we can head our separate ways until next week.