Chat log from the meeting on 2016-09-20

[11:06] Sheera Khan: Hi everyone :-)
[11:06] Sheera Khan: Now I can see your names :-)
[11:07] James atLLOUD: oh wow, sheera - cleared cache, huh?
[11:08] Sheera Khan: thank you, yes I did a clear cache ...
[11:08] James atLLOUD: My nearby list has no 'unknown users' for once.
[11:08] Sheera Khan: moi non plus ;-)
[11:08] James atLLOUD: so some of that is viewer-side
[11:08] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: Run, she see's thru our Unknown user plot
[11:09] Sheera Khan: *giggles*
[11:09] Basil Sosides: the latest Version =.9.00 uses a bit more CPU-Power at Startup !!!!
[11:10] Basil Sosides: (15%)
[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: This week there were a number of bug fixes made to OS and the addition of one new feature.
[11:10] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: more cpu power? < note to self, feed the mouse on the wheel inside my computer 15% more >
[11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: OpenSim now supports saving of baked terrain. This uses a new table which means there is a migration step when you first run this latest version of git master.
[11:12] Basil Sosides: i mean it takes more Power at startup from the CPU
[11:12] James atLLOUD: Oh and Ubit has been busy again.
[11:12] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: That is good news!
[11:16] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: I have question about come problems with names and hypergridding.
[11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: go ahead, Kayaker
[11:17] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: If I know someone the same name in say Kitely and same name in Kitely and digiworldz,
[11:18] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: when I send an IM to one of them, I see that mesage in the log for the other avatar.
[11:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the logging is done by the viewer
[11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: In the viewer log or the OS log?
[11:20] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Dang, I type at 80 WPM, but lag slows text here down to1 CPS
[11:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: teletype
[11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: Type locally and C&P the text to here? :)
[11:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: next thing you know is someone will make a printing console type viewer
[11:24] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: I'm also seeing several avatars on different grids without the @grid name on the end.
[11:25] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Has that been broken?
[11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Avatars without @ in their names are local to that grid.
[11:25] James atLLOUD: @gavin - reminding me of Star Trek on reams of paper
[11:26] Sheera Khan: not really Andrew...
[11:26] Sheera Khan: sometimes I see foreign avatars without the @ extension too
[11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Sounds like a bug. AFAIK, if you HG TP to another grid you get an @ and grid reference in your name.
[11:27] James atLLOUD: I'd assumed no "@" meant all had the same home grid.
[11:27] Andrew Hellershanks: James, I would have assumed that if I saw an avatar with no @ means the avatar is in their home grid.
[11:28] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Sometime I see the @ grid on the names of people who are local
[11:28] Andrew Hellershanks: If you see an avatar from another grid but without an @ sign, is there another user local to that grid with the same name?
[11:29] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Could it be an OS 0.8 / 0.9 difference?
[11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: Possibly.
[11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't deal with HG issues so I'm not up on changes in the HG protocols.
[11:30] James atLLOUD: Does this relate to Sheera clearing her cache to remove 'unknown user' being displayed?
[11:31] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: she doesn't understand that we are part of the unknown user culture but no no no, NOW we have tags on us < names > rofl
[11:31] Andrew Hellershanks: James: that sounds more like a viewer issue.
[11:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I had that intermittently for some version sof dev 0.9
[11:32] James atLLOUD: OK ty.
[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: unknown user has been an issue that keeps popping up.
[11:34] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, You may have missed one of my earlier questions. Which log showed an IM apparently going to the wrong person? Did the message really go to the wrong person or was it only an error in the log file?
[11:36] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: I talked on Kitely, HG jumped to digiworld, searched for them on digiworld, taked to them there, saw
[11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: where did you see?
[11:38] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: thing is the two Kitely avatars had exchanged in the log
[11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok, Kokua logs the chat / convo with an avatar in a file appending the grid name. What other viewers does I cannot answer
[11:39] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: went back to the K-K log, it was in there also
[11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what is the K-K-log?
[11:40] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: two Kitely avatars talking
[11:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok
[11:41] Sheera Khan: Firestorm does so too
[11:41] Simulator Version v0.5 ruft: OpenSim 0.9.0.0 Dev 874ba6b: 2016-09-19 19:40:13 +0100 (Unix/Mono)
[11:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and what viewer logged the chat / IM?
[11:42] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: then me Kitely talking to the other guy with the same name on another grid
[11:42] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: FS
[11:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: did you log on local to that other grid, or did you HG there?
[11:43] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: HG
[11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: then the viewer should have appended the grid name, but you never know
[11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: any idea what version of openSim the other grid was on?
[11:45] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: 0.8.2
[11:45] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: right
[11:45] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: I was on 0.8.2 also
[11:45] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: understand
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, I'm still not clear whether an IM meant for x@grid1 went to that person or if it wound up going to x@grid2. If IMs are going to the wrong place that is a bug. if it is just an error in the logging of an outgoing IM that is still a problem but a lesser one.
[11:48] James atLLOUD: How would this be described as a mantis ticket?
[11:52] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: I have a question for you Andrew, you might can answer at least some, Last week it was mentioned that 0.9.0 was closer to being ready then many thought, do you have a realistic estimate of when that might be released?
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: James, Depends which of the two issues you are asking about. Look for reports mentioning IM, messaging, or instant messaging or you might be looking for messages about errors in the displayed names.
[11:52] James atLLOUD: OK - ty!
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: Don, no date has been set for a release.
[11:53] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: ty
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: yw
[11:53] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Q: If I go to grid g and talk to a local avatar named Fred, he has no @grid on his name?
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: If Fred is logged in locally to the grid you are in then Fred would not have an @ in their name.
[11:54] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which makes sense because it tells you the avatar is native to that grid
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, right.
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: If Fred was not native to that grid and you still didn't see an @ in their name then something isn't right.
[11:56] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Q: then on grid k I talk to an avatar also local also named Fred, he has no @ on name if I am in his grid?
[11:57] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Q: how do I tell them apart?
[11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you tell them apart by your onw knoweldge you were on 2 different grids
[11:59] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: My log shows two avatars named fred, I get confused, viewer gets confused
[11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: exactly how that pans out in the viewer logging is a different question, but I assume the grid name is appended as long as you have HG teleported there
[12:00] George Equus: If Fred from g grid came to k grid you'd see the g grid Fred with an @ in his name...
[12:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you logged in native it might be logged in the same log file
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: If the two Freds are in two different grids and you are talking with them at the same time I would expect that you would see one as Fred while the other is Fred@ depending on which grids they are in relative to where you are and which grid is their home.
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: which grid they in logged in to directly.
[12:01] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: I suggest new rule: If they are not on MY grid they should always have @
[12:01] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: in my logs
[12:01] James atLLOUD: Andrew, before we're done how much testing do you need for the baked terrain update?
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: If you HG TP in the middle of two IM sessions to two different avatars named Fred which would require a change as to which one is identified as Fred@ that might be a viewer issue if the viewer display doesn't update properly.
[12:04] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Who puts the @ on? server or viewer?
[12:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: There is a running chat log, and there is a per avatar chat log in most viewer
[12:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: in the running chat log it will be confusing if you change grid during a conversation
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: James, Do whatever testing you can. You could also talk to Ubit and see what he suggests.
[12:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: in the per avatar chat log it should be clearer
[12:06] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: this was all per avater chats
[12:06] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: Andrew, do you have more information on OSCC in December? The web site shows most of the information needed i think
[12:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok
[12:06] James atLLOUD: ty @terrain update
[12:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I'll have to check what Kokua actually does
[12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Don, nebadon is the person who could update you on the OSCC if there is information not yet on the website. He is expected back here next week.
[12:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there might be a setting to allways append grid name
[12:07] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: ty
[12:08] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: that setting in server or viewer?
[12:08] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: viewer
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, there might also be a point to having that configurable.
[12:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: might be
[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: If you are talking with someone logged in locally to the grid in which you are located there isn't a need to show any @ in their name. Talking with two avatars in different places at the same time that have the same name isn't a situation that would be very common.
[12:10] James atLLOUD: agree @show grid for all avs if that's what Gavin said
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: You could just add the @ automatically when there is a name collision. If you are talking to Fred and you start talking to a second Fred, automatically add @ to the names of both Freds.
[12:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that would not be consistent for the logging Andrew
[12:11] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Well, I see a way to write iup a Mantis now.
[12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: If you are in a grid talking to a locally logged in avatar having @ in their name would generally be unecessary.
[12:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: agreed
[12:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: to the display it is noise
[12:13] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Must go -- thanks
[12:13] James atLLOUD: a switch to show @grid would be useful to me in some of the avatar lists.
[12:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but not to the logging unless you only log on to one single grid and never teleport
[12:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that would be like central server logging without having the host name in the log files
[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: If you are talking with two Fred's, one would have an @ in the name, the other not. When you TP to the other Freds grid, if the names stay the same in the chat (re: who has an @ and who doesn't), that avoids confusion. Don't change how the name is displayed in active chat sessions.
[12:15] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: I see it this way: If I am talking to someone who is not local to my grid, I want to know that.
[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: My grid meaning your home grid or the one you are currently in?
[12:16] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: home
[12:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: viewer switch for @grid. server should always send grid regardless
[12:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: viewer switch for displaying @grid
[12:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: @grid should always be logged for consistency
[12:17] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: People local to home have no @. People local to where I am have no @
[12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, does it need to be logged? Isn't it already reflected in the name of the chat log file?
[12:18] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: how do you tell them apart?
[12:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it does not need to be written to each line, but the viewer needs it sent for so it can be logged to the right file
[12:19] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: Good to see everyone, again next week for sure!, I need to run, ty for the meeting today.
[12:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: otherwise the two Freds might end up in the same file
[12:20] Andrew Hellershanks: ah, it isn't in the name of the chat log file. It would be in the name of the directory containing the chat logs for a grid.
[12:20] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: ty
[12:21] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Yeah, I need to go someplace where I can type
[12:21] James atLLOUD: It's getting on for me too. Any more topics to cover Andrew?
[12:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, when you start a chat with someone in another grid does the viewer create a new directory with your avatarname@theothergridname as the place for the chat with that foreign avatar/
[12:21] Andrew Hellershanks: ?
[12:21] Andrew Hellershanks: James, not from me. Thanks for coming.
[12:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it starts a new file that can be named like kayaker_magic_@grid_kitely_com_8002
[12:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or kayaker_magic
[12:22] Andrew Hellershanks: I need to go soon. My cat has been calling for me.
[12:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: depending on if the chat is local or not
[12:22] George Equus: Thanks Andrew, leaving as well.
[12:22] James atLLOUD: Ok - I'll review the chat after it's posted - ty Sheera :)
[12:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is logged to a directory named after the avatar
[12:22] Andrew Hellershanks: So the chat logs are always stored in the directory for the grid you are in and not based on which grid the other avatar is from?
[12:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so if you use mutliple avatars in your viewer, you will have one for each of them
[12:23] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, ok. So that isn't a problem.
[12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: I think I misread that. It would still be an issue.
[12:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the problem is if the viewer creates a Andrew..txt chat log when I log on to OSgrid directly
[12:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and then I log on to Kitely directly and there is another Andrew there I talk with
[12:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that chat will be logged to the same file
[12:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if the chat always had @grid appended to the name it would be consistent
[12:26] Andrew Hellershanks: The chat log for the andrew from osgrid should be saved in a directory named my_avatar_name@grid_name. When you start talking with an Andrew in another grid it would be saved under my_avatar_name@other_grid_name.
[12:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but that is not how it works
[12:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Both files would be called Andrew.txt but their directory would tell you which one is for which avatar.
[12:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it would just create a mess of directoroes
[12:26] Andrew Hellershanks: We already have a mess of directories everytime we go to a different grid.
[12:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no, the files should be called andrew@osgrid.txt and andrew@kitely.txt
[12:27] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, that is your assignment for next week. :)
[12:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that makes it consistent
[12:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and easy to log
[12:28] Andrew Hellershanks: Right. The only problem remaining is migrating the names of existing log files to that naming convention for full consistency.
[12:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: people will have to do that manually
[12:28] Sheera.Khan @metrotest.hypergrid.org:8002: and actually that is how FS handles the logs
[12:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I'm off to test a super annoying viewer bug we probably fixed