Chat log from the meeting on 2016-08-09

[10:57] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi George. Lagging :-))
[10:58] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: For once I arrived first  :)
[10:58] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: Yes, much lag!
[10:58] Sheera Khan: oh yes ...
[10:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Heh, is that the latest build?
[10:59] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: And Sit was acting up. could not sit on one at all, just stood straight up for a minute
[10:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I built yesterday and deployed. and it is not lagging, except there is something about culling
[10:59] Simulator Version v0.5 ruft: OpenSim 0.9.0.0 Dev a30f75c: 2016-08-07 21:13:58 +0100 (Unix/Mono)
[11:00] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: Think is this region only, just came from some heavy editing, linking unlinking hundreds of prims in one go, no problem
[11:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it a bit too slow ot fetch stuff, so when you round a corner, the avatar pause whole the scene is updating with items comming into view
[11:00] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: What's "culling"?
[11:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: culling is it does not fetch object hidden by others
[11:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: less to render that way
[11:01] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: Ahh OK thanks
[11:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: both the graphics card, the viewer logic and the server can do culling
[11:03] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: I was alone when arrived to region here and rezed immediately and could walk smoothly all the way here
[11:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok
[11:04] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: Lost some attachments, only one of those has turned up again... hoping will all return eventually...... happened after last outage
[11:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sorry to hear that
[11:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have not lost anything since the big outage in 2014
[11:05] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: wrist watch, mesh feet, mesh trousers, specs... beard is bnly thing that work now again.
[11:05] Ubit Umarov: Buaaaa im here again with empty cache lol
[11:06] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: Suppose Dan is still busy working with HDs...
[11:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: all ypur stuff went to /dev/null?
[11:08] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: Other than issue with attachments can't say I have any complaints right now  :)
[11:08] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I'm feeling a bit under the weather today so I'm not going to be able to stay for the meeting today.
[11:08] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: Sorry to hear that
[11:09] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: You can stay and talk amongst yourselves.
[11:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Stay well and get better
[11:09] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: tc Andrew
[11:09] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: ty. I think it was something I ate this morning that didn't agree with me.
[11:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not good
[11:10] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: At least wasn't something eating you not agreeing...
[11:10] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I had forgotten it was Tuesday. I originally had a family meeting scheduled for today which meant I wouldn't have been here at all.
[11:10] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org grins at George
[11:10] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: 007 quote...
[11:10] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: um... family outing
[11:11] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: ah, ok. I didn't remember that one. One of the local TV stations has been running a couple of Bond movies a night over this past week.
[11:12] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: Don't remember what book is from right now,,, was a guy badies dumped in a shark tank
[11:13] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I just upgraded a grid to the latest copy of git master as of a week ago Monday. It is getting more of a shakedown by the users.
[11:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I built and updated yesterday
[11:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it runs fine except it is a bit rough on culling perhaps
[11:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: when you round a corner and new stuff comes into view, the avatar really stalls while the scene is updating
[11:14] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: George, a quick search says it might be The Spy Who Loved Me.
[11:14] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: Could well be
[11:15] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: hm... I thought the culling stuff wasn't in there yet.
[11:15] Dahlia Trimble: boo
[11:16] Dahlia Trimble is here to catch up on the drama :D
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: what drama ?
[11:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: culling stuff in this commit, http://opensimulator.org/viewgit/?a=commit&p=opensim&h=ff0ccf9c67e3840c39729e1ce9677b96e0cfd472
[11:16] Dahlia Trimble: whatever drama is current
[11:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but Ubit knows all about what it does of course
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: well i made it lol
[11:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: exactly ;-))
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: well it seems to be working
[11:17] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: There are never any drama here ;)
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: some freezes are now a bit less noticiable
[11:17] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: or is..
[11:18] Dahlia Trimble: never? how boring :/
[11:18] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I'll see you all next week. Time to go see if I can manage anything to eat for lunch.
[11:18] James.Atlloud @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi all, glad to be back. New job and I'm settling in.
[11:18] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: my missing trousers maybe...
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: ideia about hat culling is to reduce the number of prims viewers have in memory at a given time
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: cost is more cpu load and net
[11:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I feel it is a bit too aggressive
[11:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: avatar really stalls while the scene is updating
[11:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: once loaded it is much faster on next visit
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: well that is caching
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: textures etc
[11:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: first visit on a region is always a pain
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: but culling is on a "testing" status
[11:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sure
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: today i did some code also on a new prioritizer
[11:21] Sheera Khan: does it have to be eabled in OpenSim.ini?
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: considering the prims "area"
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: well fail so far lol
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: yes sheera.. disabled by default of course :)
[11:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: btw I am running on mono 4.4.2 and the CPU issue is largely gone
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: on cpu i made a mistake bte win/linux
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: used something that should mean about 18ms but is 1ms on linux oops :)
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: so there was a thread running full steam on idller regions
[11:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ah, ok
[11:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: glad you got that sorted
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: how it the weather?
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is like early October
[11:28] Sheera Khan: changeable ...
[11:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: very windy, wet, cold
[11:29] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: first snow in the mountains, and we are in the beginning of August
[11:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for virtual weather FS have fixed theri clouds in the version they released last night
[11:30] Sheera Khan: Oh, new clouds?
[11:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no, updating properly
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: I tried new firestorm last night, seems to work well
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: though it wiped out all my user/password stored info
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: which kind of sucks
[11:31] Sheera Khan: yes, I'm using it atm...
[11:32] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: Always use it
[11:32] Sheera Khan: it didn't do that with me :-)
[11:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: FS is never a happy camper on my machines
[11:32] Robert Adams: I just instaled the new FS before this meeting.... working fine for me so far
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: the pie menu was cool
[11:32] Sheera Khan: although I didn't test if voice still works in Linux
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: its like animated now
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: kind of like pops out at you a bit
[11:33] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: think 4.7.7 probably will be the last version, no work done for opensim version any more...
[11:34] Sheera Khan: 4.7.9 is available for Linux
[11:34] Sheera Khan: no Havoc support anymore though
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: what do you mean George?
[11:35] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: FS team won't develop further on opensim version
[11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: with LL dropping Linux support the effort keeping it will be much bigger
[11:35] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: What I heard
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: did they say that specifically?
[11:35] James.Atlloud @grid.kitely.com:8002: sad
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: realistically their opensim support was pretty non-existent for some time
[11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I had not heard that but I can see why in case
[11:36] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: I picked it up somewhere some time ago, not sure if was from FS blog or "loose talk"...
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: yea I would say unelss they announce that on their blog
[11:36] James.Atlloud @grid.kitely.com:8002: I understood FS had no developers focusing on opensim. Not an 'don't support' but no capacity to support.
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: its probably not worth buying in to that
[11:37] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: Could ask directly on one of FS class in SL
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: yea, the only reason it seemed like Firestorm had an opensim support
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: had absolutely nothing to really do with opensim
[11:37] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: Jessica Lyon
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: they were forced to split versions so they could have better SL support
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: it had nothing to do with making opensim support better
[11:38] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: Got the grid manager, lacking on SL version
[11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes and that gets even more compounded as LL makes major changes to the SL code
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: yes they couldnt offer Grid manager
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: and keep the Havok DLLS included
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: they only made a opensim version to keep people from getting upset I think, they have never really shown a ton of interest in opensim
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: most of what is in firestorm came from other viewer teams
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: like Kokua and Singularity etc..
[11:39] James.Atlloud @grid.kitely.com:8002: So anyone have another favorite OS viewer?
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: OpenSim realted stuff anyway
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: Singularity is nice
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: and still being maintained
[11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: We are hammering on the OS version of Kokua almost every day
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: they were just talking about a new release soon
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: but ya Kokua is good option still too
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: most of the differnces come down to the GUI though
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: otherwise they offer a similar experience
[11:40] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: I'll stick to FS, so far it works pretty well for me, never used any other viewer but briefly
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: its just a matter of what you like in terms of how the GUI lays out
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: yea Firestorm is till a viable option as well
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: no reason to stop using it
[11:41] James.Atlloud @grid.kitely.com:8002: Jessica Lyon recommended Alchemy many weeks ago on Mal's show.
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: yea Alchemy and Singularity are sister projects
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: anything in Alchemy is generally in Singularity
[11:42] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: FS strong point is flexibility I suppose, can be configured to look like all the other viewrs... pie menu or not, eg
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: I think Alchemy is more geared towards a particular grid project
[11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Alchemy is ratehr short on features compared to Singularity
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: though I am pretty sure it works on any grid
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: yea I can't say I have used it
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: just keep the damm map closed with fs 4.7.7
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: all I know is almost everything that comes from Alchemy ends up in Singularity as well
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: Alchemy is based on Singualrity code originally
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: its a fork
[11:43] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: But FS do need rather hefty hardware to run well, is heavy
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: I use Firestorm for Machinima
[11:43] James.Atlloud @grid.kitely.com:8002: ok - good to know. I like the phototools in FS - don't know if that's in another viewer.
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: it has better shadows
[11:43] vegaslon plutonian: sure you are not talking about replex?
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: and overall nicer graphics
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: Replex is also a fork
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: both are based on Singularity code
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: Alchemy is probabl not considered a fork anymore
[11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Replex is not maintained any more
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: its its own project now
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: but it came out of Singularity
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: they consider themselves sister projects
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: i beleive it might even say that on the website
[11:44] James.Atlloud @grid.kitely.com:8002: replex.org is for sale
[11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: The Repex maintainer passed away
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: a Quote from singularityviewer.org
[11:44] James.Atlloud @grid.kitely.com:8002: .oh.
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: "we are also able to share code and prebuilt libraries with our sister project, Alchemy Viewer, this is highly beneficial as the development workload is now halved between our two projects."
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: I personally like Singularity for building
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: and Firestorm for making movies and screenshots
[11:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the version 1 UI is much more efficient for many things
[11:46] Sheera Khan: I use Kokua too from time to time :-)
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: yea I havent used Kokua in a while, i should give it a go again
[11:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what came after is kindoff like the QWERTY keyboard; designed to slow you down
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: I used to use it a lot
[11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: give Kokua a spin
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: for a time I thought it was no longer being maintained
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: but I think it just got really quiet hehe
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: was never really dead
[11:47] Sheera Khan: I had to let it go quite a bit aga because of really heavy graphics glitches with my Intel HD3000
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: hmm the sl viewer did work ok at sl
[11:48] Sheera Khan: but now it works again :-)
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: long time since i had a run on it
[11:49] James.Atlloud @grid.kitely.com:8002: Kokua blog has a 15jul update
[11:49] James.Atlloud @grid.kitely.com:8002: http://blog.kokuaviewer.org/
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: I havent used stock SL viewer since they dropped support for -loginuri
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: i swore id never load it on my PC again
[11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: latests Opensim builds are at https://sourceforge.net/projects/kokua.team-purple.p/files/Kokua-OS/
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: ive held to that oath
[11:49] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: Think where I picked it up on FS dev was HG business: "Meanwhile, the Firestorm team is heavily tilted towards Second Life support. “We don’t have a developer on our team who does OpenSim.” http://www.hypergridbusiness.com/2016/01/firestorm-lead-recommends-alchemy-viewer-for-opensim/
[11:49] Sheera Khan: but 4.0.2(38137) ist current still
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: yeap petty i can use winproxy with it
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: i just installed kokua
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: will try it again
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: there is a way to hexedit the exe
[11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: let us know how it works
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: to use gridproxy
[11:50] Robert Adams: the SL viewer never survived the UI mangle from years ago
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: having to use tpvs to fix protocol is BAD
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: unfortunately it was Latif who told me how to do that
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: and I dont remember now how to
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: he had an app he wrote at some point
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: i doubt it works anymore
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: editing the xml
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: doesn't work anymore
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: if you use a hex editor you can find the loginuri string
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: and replace it with grid proxy url
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: i could change localhost.. but yeackk
[11:52] Sheera Khan: @ George: when you cite that article you should point to the following letter too:
[11:52] Sheera Khan: http://www.firestormviewer.org/open-letter-to-opensim/
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: i mean hosts file
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: as far as I know hexedit method is only one that works correctly
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: well yeap that 2
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: i think changing the hosts to localhosts would effect other LL services
[11:53] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: that's where Jessica corrects some misinterpretations made in the article you gave ^^
[11:53] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: Missed that one Sheera, Thanks, reading....
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: yEA
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: i think what most people dont realize
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: is when code shows up in 1 viewer
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: it propegates to all the others
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: unless its something truly weird
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: which is rare due to the limitates LL has imposed on TPV teams
[11:54] vegaslon plutonian: hmm my sl veiwer still lets me pick osgrid to login to
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: generally once something good happens in one project, the other projects eventually pick it up
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: really vegaslon? a new viewer?
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: "But I am also pleased to say that since that interview we have already seen an increase in help and communication from a few grids. Littlefield has always been our strongest communicator, and the majority of our recent OpenSim bug fixes are a direct result of their efforts to work with us."
[11:55] vegaslon plutonian: ya that is why I crashed I just installed sl viewer and it did not like singularity being open
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: grrrrr
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya Ubit i hear your groan there lol
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: does she see what is wrong with that ??
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: with the caveat being as long as your not a core dev
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: they dont seem to like us much
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: they where changin fs to work on THAT grid!!!
[11:57] Robert Adams: we'll just have to work through proxies :)
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: Jessica is nice and helpful
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: but like you said I dont think she is involved much anymore
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: I used to work with Tankmaster he was great
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: but he got a job at intel and moved on
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: tanmaster was a Firestorm Dev and heavily involved in Kokua too
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: shame he isnt around anymore
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: [11:56] Nebadon Izumi: with the caveat being as long as your not a core dev hmm ??
[11:58] George Equus: Very good news, and from the horses mouth. Thanks again Sheera. Jessica Lyon is always very helpful, nice person
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: oh the Firestorm devs, they just always seem very negative to us directly
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: like what happened to you on their Jira other day
[11:59] Simulator Version v0.5 ruft: OpenSim 0.9.0.0 Dev a30f75c: 2016-08-07 21:13:58 +0100 (Unix/Mono)
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: yeap
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: I would love to work closer with them directly
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: well jessica was nice to chat with
[11:59] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: always glad to be helpful ;-)
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: but i always feel like their first response to me is negative
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: yea Jessica is the exception
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: she is a diplomat though
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: yeap
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: I stopped even going to their IRC
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: because i felt like everytime i did i was basically told to shut up lol
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: never seen talking there
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: its been a while since i have
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: years ago
[12:01] vegaslon plutonian: ok to use gridproxy you can create a grid.xml at "AppData\Roaming\SecondLife\user_settings" with this in it http://pastebin.com/b4PHrgc5
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: i stopped going
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: nice vegaslon
[12:01] vegaslon plutonian: grids.xml actually
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: vegas i tested that..
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: its ignored now it seems
[12:02] vegaslon plutonian: you of course have to do the same steps in the veiwer you would to get on the beta grid
[12:02] vegaslon plutonian: but it will show up in the list
[12:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: If you log on to OpenSim with the SL viewer, there is a bunch of varaibles and settings for Opensim missing, so it will work, but not properly
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: seems grids are now buried in code
[12:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: yea really when it comes to viewers
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: try em all and use what you like
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[12:06] James.Atlloud @grid.kitely.com:8002: true true
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: oops
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: the xml did work
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: nice
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: ok i'll test winproxy with it later at sl
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: cool
[12:11] vegaslon plutonian: crashed trying to login to osgrid with it though
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: well that is understandable
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: specially on a var region :)
[12:11] vegaslon plutonian: yep
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: but as i said SL is now a diferent enviroment
[12:12] Robert Adams: there must be some '256's scattered through it
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: they, correctlym optimized it for their setup
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: ( httpipeline use is a minor example )
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: direct fetching of textures, meshs etc
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: blabla
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: even SSA makes sense to them
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: not that much when a viewer rebake is a lot faster than ask for it to osgrid on the other side on atlantic :)