Chat log from the meeting on 2016-03-08

[11:00] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll be back in a few minutes. I need to go afk to do one last thing before we get the meeting started.
[11:03] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: I've learned something wonderful today!
[11:03] Lucy Afarensis: indeed ?
[11:03] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: In SL a prim cannot be moved farther than~54 meters from the root
[11:04] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: In IW the limit is 256
[11:04] Lucy Afarensis: yes a pain
[11:04] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: In OpenSim The limit used to be around 54 also
[11:04] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: But I just moved a child prim 500 meters from it's root today!
[11:04] tx.Oh @nichtort.icf.de:8002: who knows more about dahlia trimbles webgl client?
[11:04] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: I have a good use for this!
[11:05] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Why am I getting "Unable to fetch profile data at this time" popups?
[11:06] Lucy Afarensis: Things have been weird all week
[11:06] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: just sitting here in Wright Plaza?
[11:06] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Microsoft has signed an agreement to acquire Xamarin
[11:06] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: People behind mono
[11:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so is that bad?
[11:08] Lucy Afarensis flüstert: We have to pay evil to opensim on linux now ?
[11:08] Lucy Afarensis: empire
[11:08] vegaslon plutonian: no more then usual right now
[11:08] Lucy Afarensis: Did not mean to wisper that
[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm back.
[11:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it's free now so we shall see :-)
[11:09] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: .Net core is due for release in the next few months so I would imagine that the two would move closer anyway
[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: My apologies to those of you who were here last week and left before I arrived.
[11:09] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Microsoft open source .net
[11:09] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Andrew, I missed the Saturday meeting, how did it go?
[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: My PDA reminded me of the meeting. I said "I'll just finish this one thing I'm working on" and the next thing I know a half hour had gone by.
[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Most people had left before I arrived last week, Kayaker.
[11:10] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002 flüstert: HAHA! That flying time thing happens to me all the time also!
[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm not used to running the meetings yet.
[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: yea, things always take longer than you expect. I don't even remember what I was working on that day.
[11:10] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Question from people I meet during the week...
[11:10] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: btw, is mono still crashing with the most recent versions of linux kernel 64 bit?
[11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, How did you try to move the prim where you discovered a limit?
[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Could it have been a viewer limitation, or draw distance related limit?
[11:12] vegaslon plutonian: scripted prim movement is still something around 10 meters by default
[11:12] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: I have a script that calls llSetLinkPrimParamFast(...PRIM_LOCAL_POS ...) with larger and larger values
[11:13] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Yeah, the 10m limit is also a bummer, but you can warpos around that.
[11:14] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: It is not a viewer limit, you used to be unable to move child prims beyond ~54m, based on an old LL limit.
[11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: yea, I have scripts that rez things or move things and you have to keep checking if they reached their destination if you need to move something more than 10m from the starting position.
[11:14] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: In SL, child prim movement does not have a 10m per step limit, only root prims.
[11:15] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: In OpenSim, child prim movement ALSO has the 10m limit that root prims have.
[11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Billy, I have only seen OpenSim (or mono) crash on me somtimes after I put my computer to sleep then woke it up again.
[11:15] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: So rez boxes from SL don't work here.
[11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, they do. I use the Builder's Buddy rezzer script in OpenSim grids. Works a treat.
[11:16] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: If the rez box has to move child prims farther than 10m, they will land in the wrong place.
[11:16] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Problem for large houses, for example.
[11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: The 10m move limit is an SL limit so the scripts in SL had to be written to handle that.
[11:16] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: In SL the 10m limit only applys to root prims.
[11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: That is what the rezzers are moving
[11:17] vegaslon plutonian: when I made a single linkset board game I had to deal with that 10m limit on child prims in SL
[11:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Kayaker, maybe you can make a Mantis for this?
[11:18] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: I think I made one years about it.
[11:18] tx.Oh @nichtort.icf.de:8002: i just setted up a new grid last week (after a two year break) and still think that the .ini files are a mess. especially all this repeated HomeURI and GateKeeper optional and mandatory settings.
[11:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Give it a bump and a refresh if there are changes since you filed it
[11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: tx.Oh, you only need to specify HomeURI and GateKeeper in one section. The other locations of them are so you can override the settings for a given section of the ini file.
[11:19] tx.Oh @nichtort.icf.de:8002: untrue. but it's ok. for me it's overcomplicated.
[11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: I recently enabled a grid for HG use. I only set HomeURI in one place.
[11:20] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: There have been reports of stability issues with MariaDB, anyone have any idea the nature of the problem?
[11:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002 flüstert: Any info on operating system versions and version of MariaDB that sees the issue?
[11:22] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: none as far as I can tell
[11:22] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: from a statement on IRC I believe
[11:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Then it is not easy to have any opinion of it
[11:22] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Just wondered if the issue had been discussed further elsewhere
[11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: Billy, I saw some discussion about that recently. From what I heard the problem is with MariaDB itself rather than in OpenSim.
[11:23] tx.Oh @nichtort.icf.de:8002: i stay with mysql as long as my distribution suports it.
[11:23] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: I mention here in case someone reads the meeting logs and help
[11:24] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Thanks for the patch, short people move more smoothly now :)
[11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: MariaDB is not recommended for use with OpenSim
[11:25] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Andrew, do you know why?
[11:25] Robert Adams: that's good.... trying to get 0.9 up to snuff :)
[11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Billy, there are some issues in MariaDB is what I heard. I can see if I still have the messages about it.
[11:26] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: I do know people involved with MariaDB, I could raise the matter if I knew more
[11:26] Robert Adams: One of the core developers has had problems with MariaDB having problems under load... I don't know the details
[11:27] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Another test rig on the todo list :)
[11:27] Robert Adams: I use it for my test regions and havn't seen a problem... but anyone working at scale (running a grid...) should consider stearing away from it
[11:28] Andrew Hellershanks: Billy, MariaDB is considered faster in some cases over MySQL but I read it is considered to be less stable due to new code merged in to InnoDB.
[11:28] Andrew Hellershanks: Quoting the person who mentioned that -> opensim's database usage patterns are particularly harsh in some respects and _will_ cause maria to break eventually
[11:28] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: oh, thanks Andrew
[11:28] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: I have a question about the OSgrid map: My varregion there shows up as a mini picture in the SW corner. Is there a way to make the map picture full var sized?
[11:29] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Could be viewer specific. What version are you using?
[11:29] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: FireStorm
[11:29] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: version?
[11:29] vegaslon plutonian: you talking about the web map?
[11:29] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Yes WEB map
[11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker? That region is a var?
[11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: change that first ? to a :
[11:30] vegaslon plutonian: someone would have to update the osgrid webmap code to handle var regions
[11:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: is there a reliable link to that code anywhere?
[11:30] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: The viewer map looks good.
[11:30] Robert Adams: I remember that some virewers didn't do varregion maps reasonably
[11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: You would need to talk with someone who runs osgrid to find out how they generate map tiles and if that is a viewer specific bug or something about how the tiles are generated.
[11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: OK, Kayaker, I thought you meant the in-world map
[11:31] Robert Adams: the simulator creates multiple region maps for a varregion so a viewer should just work
[11:31] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: sorry, i was not clear.
[11:31] Andrew Hellershanks: np
[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, the map on the website. It may not be set to handle vars.
[11:32] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Is there a URL for getting the map tiles over the WEB like LL does for SL?
[11:32] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Wonderful avatars here today
[11:33] oscar jones: am i sitn on someone?
[11:33] Robert Adams: yes... the map tiles have URLs just like SL... the same code should work
[11:33] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, there are os function calls to get map tiles.
[11:33] Matilda Charron: haha difficulty sitting I want to sit like lady :P
[11:33] Lucy Afarensis: not easy here
[11:33] Matilda Charron: lol
[11:34] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: sit next to Andrew
[11:34] Matilda Charron: haha
[11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: I've thought about putting a reserved sign on that chair until nebadon returns.
[11:35] Matilda Charron: lol
[11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, I'll pass along the comment about the osgrid web map
[11:36] Robert Adams: people have said there are problems with HG and the latest OpenSimulator sources... does anyone have a specific failure?
[11:36] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: I had wondered if the community could create an OAR that people could use to do basic testing, some kind of consistency
[11:36] oscar jones: wow laggy here
[11:37] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Encapsulate many of the scripts and build issues
[11:37] Matilda Charron: always laggy at wrights
[11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: Billy, that could be a useful thing to have.
[11:37] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Kind of focus stuff in Mantis
[11:37] oscar jones: something wrong full seat edited yellow
[11:37] Lucy Afarensis: I was moving some stuff from here to Francogrid When rezzed I could see it but franco Lucy could not
[11:38] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Then people could test on their favourite platform, would eliminate some variables
[11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Moved over HG Lucy?
[11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: It won't catch some issues but it would make it easier when testing new code.
[11:38] Robert Adams: could be me.... I'm connected over a marginal wireless network... there are some suspected problems where slow client connections can make it laggy for everyone
[11:39] Lucy Afarensis: I had hged there but was rezzing from my own inventory
[11:39] Robert Adams: OS could use an in-world test suite
[11:39] Simulator Version v0.5 ruft: OpenSim 0.9.0.0 Dev        be43fc2: 2016-03-06 14:23:06 -0800 (Unix/Mono)
[11:39] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: We now have several mini branches, like Bullet and ODE 2, profiles 1 and 2 2 types of groups etc
[11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: from regular inventory or My Suitcase?
[11:40] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: mono and microsoft
[11:40] Lucy Afarensis: regular as an osg avi I dont have one
[11:40] Matilda Charron: aren't the sandboxes a kinda testing place
[11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker: osGetMapTexture and osGetRegionMapTexture
[11:40] oscar jones: i think he meant region/grid tests hun
[11:41] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: yes Matilda, but specific to content creation
[11:41] Matilda Charron: oh
[11:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I bet Francogrid would only rezz from My Suitcase so it never really got there, but you could see it as it rezzed from your viewer cache to you
[11:42] Robert Adams: it is a good project and the community and the developers would be very happy if such a thing existed
[11:42] Lucy Afarensis: strange
[11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there are few issues around My Suitcase making is hard to navigate between grids with the viewers
[11:42] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Wondered if could be maintained on Github with versioning
[11:42] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Oscar: osGetMapTexture does not give me a URL to a map tile that I can put in the address line of my WEB browser.
[11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: We struggle with that portion of code in the Kokua viewer right now
[11:43] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Bring together the expertise of scripter and mesh and stuff
[11:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: some grids present it as a folder type 100 (which is the new standard) but others present as type 9 or something else
[11:43] Lucy Afarensis: I may have to copybot my own stuf to move it then ?
[11:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so stuff does not show between grids
[11:43] oscar jones: we all have to grid jump to get to certain places seems normal to me considering there is a limited distance
[11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, I didn't realize you were looking for a way to get the tile via web browser. I was thinking you wanted it for in-world use.
[11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: Lucy, have you tried giving yourself a copy from the Suitcase?
[11:45] Lucy Afarensis: I don't have a suitcase
[11:45] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: OSGrid does not really support the suitcase
[11:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so it is hard to test
[11:46] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Many grids (including SL) have a URL based way to get map tiles, and it can be turned into a grid map using the google map API.
[11:46] Lucy Afarensis: tried making one but did not work
[11:46] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: No suitcase with OSG avis, which is strange
[11:46] vegaslon plutonian: here is a example of the grid map tile for my region on osgrid http://my.osgrid.org/img_region/
[11:46] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: unique
[11:46] vegaslon plutonian: blah wrong address
[11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't use HG very often. I thought there is a folder that is used to hold items you want to take with you to another grid. Once in the other grid I was suggesting you try giving the item from the folder containing the item from the other grid.
[11:46] vegaslon plutonian: http://my.osgrid.org/img_region/gravity.jpg
[11:47] George Equus: Hi. RL kept me away...  guess I will read transcript :)
[11:47] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: I don't think the folks at OSG thought hypergrid would catch on
[11:47] Lucy Afarensis: Metro avies have suitcases but dont use them
[11:47] oscar jones: if they know how to config their files your inv will go everywhere
[11:48] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: use a OSG avi on another grid and all the folders indicate unavailable
[11:48] Lucy Afarensis: Dan said that there is an ini setting in the robust file that controls suitcase behavior
[11:48] Robert Adams: check out http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Map
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Lucy, it will also depend on how the grid set their export permissions.
[11:48] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: exactly Billy
[11:48] oscar jones: says so but still works
[11:48] Matilda Charron: suitcases are a nuisance it gets confusing. what about saving iar and bringing it over Lucy?
[11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the point being is that grids have different implementations over the out-of-the box version
[11:49] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: very confusing
[11:49] George Equus: I pick up stuff on the HG all the time, without a Suitcase. No problem bringing most over, sometimes will fail but rarely.
[11:49] oscar jones: cant save unless it is your sim can you?
[11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and that makes it both very hard to support in the viewers, and it creates headaches for people moving around
[11:49] Lucy Afarensis: it is mine
[11:49] Robert Adams: also search the Mantis for 'maptiles'... there are some discussions of problems and bugs... like http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=6993
[11:50] Lucy Afarensis: I run the servers
[11:50] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: I don't thing the unavailable is honored by osg avis
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: The discussions side tracked me and an earlier question has not yet been answered.
[11:50] Lucy Afarensis: We are an unruly bunch
[11:51] oscar jones: mine says unavailable and still i rezz and recieve and take stuff home
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: Someone (Robert) asked about HG issues between grids.
[11:52] oscar jones: it is a file configuration you need to look into
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: It might have been Robert that asked.
[11:52] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: I have quite a few questions from users I meet on my travels, but time is running out. Will raise them next week
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: There was a change in the protocols relating to HG, IIRC. HG enabled grids should update to the latest software. Travel between grids running different versions of code can run in to problems.
[11:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Oscar, the problem is that once you bypass the My Suitcase construct, on HG visit, you basically dump your entire inventory to the asset server you visit
[11:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which is higly unwanted
[11:53] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: yes Andrew, the Simulation 0/1 thingie
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: Billy, yes. That was it.
[11:53] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: jumped from 0/3 to 0/6 and renamed version
[11:54] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you can see it on the console when some avatars arrive, asset copying is going on for ages
[11:54] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: due to the addition of an extra attachment
[11:54] oscar jones: well guess we just have to trust the server runners eh
[11:54] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: which i past to an earlier sim will crash that sim
[11:55] oscar jones: to have a server is a responsibility no?
[11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: standard opensim behavior is to have My Suitcase implemented
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: With a given pair of grid code versions there is the possbility of triggering a crash when TPing between different the grids.
[11:55] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: I din't use OSG as a reference for testing HG, to many variants
[11:56] oscar jones: but really ur wrong on the dump it goes to the sql service
[11:56] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and the database size explodes because if this
[11:56] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: dragging down performance and makeing it very hard to back up
[11:57] Lucy Afarensis flüstert: That stuff stays in even after a hg avi leaves?
[11:57] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes
[11:57] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it stays in the asset table
[11:57] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the temporary iventory items are wiped, but everything is still in the asset table
[11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: just monitor asset table growth on hypergrid vistors
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Billy, if you wanted to use OSG as a reference for testing HG you should stick to grid owned regions so you know what version of code you are dealing with.
[11:58] Greybeard Thinker: or keep sims up to date?
[11:59] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: I believe the original idea was that HG travelers only use the suitcase, but that has become derailed.
[11:59] Lucy Afarensis: There is all sorts of stuff running here
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: Greybeard, people connecting to the grid should be keeping their code up to date but you can't do much to force them to update.
[11:59] Greybeard Thinker: exactly Andrew
[12:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: For testing purposes / reference there needs to be one grid with the current release code and nothing else than that
[12:00] oscar jones: i dont know much about the data service .. cant you purge and it recreates or their return?
[12:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: plus a grid with the current dev code and nothing else than that
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: I can't be sure but with the upcoming 0.9 it might refuse connections from people coming from a grid that is running old(er) code.
[12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no addins, no different asset server, profile server - what have you
[12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: just of the box
[12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: otherwise nobody knows really how it is to behave
[12:01] tx.Oh @nichtort.icf.de:8002: i'm using fsassets, is it wise to do so?
[12:02] Matilda Charron: well to me the sandboxes are kept up to date and each have different physics engines
[12:02] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: People testing really do need to have a dedicated config, away from anything commercial
[12:02] Greybeard Thinker: I for one have never used anything but out of the box here and at Tribal Net years ago
[12:02] Ken Savage: I tried to use FSAssets exactly as the last instructions said to do, but got Robust errors on startup.
[12:03] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: There have been updates to FSAssets Ken
[12:04] Ken Savage: I used the update from yesterday
[12:04] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Gota run! Good meeting today!
[12:04] Ken Savage: I always run the latest dev master
[12:04] tx.Oh @nichtort.icf.de:8002: ken savage. i use fsassets and it works pretty well. i never thought is is a good idea to mess with blobs.
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: tx.Oh: FSAssets should be ok to use. If you see errors you can discuss them on the IRC channel or mantis them.
[12:05] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: I have several grids, though as yet no FSAssets
[12:05] Ken Savage: Are you using FSAssets with Hypergrid?
[12:05] Matilda Charron: what is FSAssets?
[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: I want to switch to FSAssets but I need to work out how to deal with keeping an up to date backup of asset blobs.
[12:06] Ken Savage: FSAssets stores assets in the file system rather than using MySQL or whatever
[12:06] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Matilda, server configuration for storing asset data
[12:06] tx.Oh @nichtort.icf.de:8002: matilda: storing the assets itself in the file system and keep a reference to it in the db
[12:06] Matilda Charron: is that flotsam?
[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Matilda, it is a different way to store the asset data blobs. Instead of keeping them in the database they are stored in files on disk. Duplicate copies are only saved once which saves disk space.
[12:06] tx.Oh @nichtort.icf.de:8002: no, flotsam is just a cache.
[12:06] Matilda Charron: ok
[12:06] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: flotsam is a read only volatile cache
[12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Matilda, its a bit like what Flotsam does but Flotsam is only temporary.
[12:07] Matilda Charron: ok
[12:07] tx.Oh @nichtort.icf.de:8002: flotsam is managed by the sim while the assets are managed by the asset server
[12:07] Ken Savage: I guess I need to try FSAssets again, but without the hypergrid option.
[12:07] Matilda Charron: ok
[12:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there was a posting in the OSG forum where someone updated the database from flotsam and wondered why the database got corrupt
[12:07] Greybeard Thinker: FSassets is beginning to sound and feel like the "flat file assets we worked on in Aurora, that I did not think much of personally
[12:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I hope nobody else does that
[12:08] oscar jones: the computer created the data delete optimize it will create again
[12:08] Greybeard Thinker: this is only grid side the discussion is about?
[12:08] tx.Oh @nichtort.icf.de:8002: fsassets are brought to opensim by melanie
[12:08] tx.Oh @nichtort.icf.de:8002: afaik, osgrid runs fsassets too
[12:09] oscar jones: servers too grey
[12:09] Greybeard Thinker: I think so yes tx
[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: There are some recent improvements made to FSAssets that have been applied to the master branch of OS
[12:10] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Anyone else running Robust on 0.9?
[12:10] Ken Savage: I am on about 200 sims
[12:10] tx.Oh @nichtort.icf.de:8002: yes
[12:10] oscar jones: heard it had problems on 0.8.3
[12:10] tx.Oh @nichtort.icf.de:8002: i do. but it's a fresh setup.
[12:10] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Ken, what about robust?
[12:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: wht is 0.8.3 anyway
[12:10] Ken Savage: I run Robust to serve the sims
[12:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: was it ever released?
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: I once ran a test of an FSAssets type system against a database for a grid. You could see anywhere from 20% to 25% duplication of assets if not more. Depends on the size of your asset database. I saw about a little over 25% duplication in the test I ran.
[12:11] Greybeard Thinker: was the stepping stone to 0.9 GAvin
[12:11] oscar jones: guess so i'm running it but still configuring hyper standalone need more info
[12:11] Ken Savage: I still don't know why anyone would not run the latest release. Older ones always have more bugs
[12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: 0.8.2.1 is the last release. There was talk of 0.8.3 but that is now what will be 0.9
[12:12] tx.Oh @nichtort.icf.de:8002: can someone tell me more about daliha trimbles webgl client? any other news about webgl clients?
[12:12] Ken Savage: I though 0.9 was realeased
[12:12] oscar jones: i'm not one to take for granted i want to understand
[12:12] George Equus: it is
[12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: No, 0.9 is still in development
[12:12] Greybeard Thinker: last I heard she'd sold it to a commercial mob
[12:12] tx.Oh @nichtort.icf.de:8002: ken: sometimes it's better to stay with old, knows bugs than with unknown new ones
[12:13] Greybeard Thinker: if you mean her web based viewer
[12:13] Ken Savage: OK, well I am using the latest 0.9 dev master
[12:13] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: People have said to me the changes to the sit position something of a hurdle, especially those that have hired people to build for them
[12:13] Ken Savage: Usually they will warn in the comments if a dev master is not safe for updating
[12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: I deal with a commercial grid. I can't risk using dev master yet.
[12:13] George Equus: 0.8.3 is last stable i am told
[12:13] Ken Savage: But I have almost always updated to dev master within 1 day after a change
[12:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: 0.8.3 only existed as a few commits
[12:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is no dowload of it
[12:14] George Equus: sure is
[12:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: where?
[12:14] Greybeard Thinker: yes there is, a biuld in OSG archives of 0.8.3
[12:14] tx.Oh @nichtort.icf.de:8002: yes, the browser based client. sigh, sold to whom?
[12:14] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Me too Ken but I have no comercial other users
[12:14] Greybeard Thinker: dev version only of course
[12:14] George Equus: Yes
[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: 0.8.3 would have been the number on the version after 0.8.2.1 before the avination code merge.
[12:14] Greybeard Thinker: yep
[12:15] Matilda Charron: the the dev master the lastest osgrid release?
[12:15] Greybeard Thinker: not quite Mati
[12:15] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: yes Matilda
[12:15] Matilda Charron: ok
[12:15] Matilda Charron: haha
[12:15] Greybeard Thinker: dan picks the best he can find from the commits
[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: By dev master, or the master branch of code, I'm referring to the latest code available from the git based repository
[12:15] Matilda Charron: ok grey
[12:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: latest release is on opensimulator.org
[12:15] Ken Savage: No, the dev master is the latest code the devs have checked in. OSG release is usually a wek or 2 behind the dev master
[12:16] Matilda Charron: ok ken
[12:16] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: oh, sorry matilda, your question was OSG specific, what grey said
[12:16] Ken Savage: Dan waits until it looks stable and then does an osg release.
[12:16] Matilda Charron: ok
[12:16] oscar jones: http://www.osgrid.org/index.php/downloads
[12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: osgrid runs a version of OS that is close to the latest code available in git but may lag behind due to known issues or due to particular work in progress.
[12:17] Greybeard Thinker: I still occasionally pull the latest commits and compile still
[12:17] Matilda Charron: alright
[12:17] oscar jones: bottom of first chapter
[12:17] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Opensimworld is good, load up 20 avis and people visit you, good for taking data
[12:17] George Equus: And latest -stable- he say is the 0.8.3  for those not bold enough to go with 0.9 yet   :)
[12:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: latest release is listed here for download http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page
[12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: The 0.8.3 on the osgrid website isn't really an official release.
[12:17] oscar jones: top of last section
[12:17] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: meet nice people as well
[12:17] oscar jones: 0.8.3
[12:18] Greybeard Thinker: this is where I grab mine to test standalone
[12:18] Greybeard Thinker: http://opensimulator.org/viewgit/?a=shortlog&p=opensim
[12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page
[12:18] George Equus: Andrew, most osg ppl probably get their files from that page..
[12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: George, true.
[12:18] Ken Savage: Only issue I have had is common to ALL opensim releases since vars were implimented.
[12:18] George Equus: served by Dan
[12:18] Matilda Charron: I keep up with the release on osgrid
[12:19] Greybeard Thinker: what issue is that Ken?
[12:19] George Equus: I usually update server day after is posted
[12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: The 0.8.3 indicates it was code from after the release of 0.8.2.1 but before the big code merge.
[12:19] Greybeard Thinker: yes Andrew
[12:19] Ken Savage: Teleporting away from a large var loaded with many prims (40,000+) almost always fails regardless of the opensim version.
[12:19] tx.Oh @nichtort.icf.de:8002: after the big osgrid crash i stay off with my regions
[12:20] oscar jones: maybe you shouldnt untill bugs are fixed
[12:20] Andrew Hellershanks: Ken, that TP is a known issue.
[12:20] Ken Savage: Yes, has been an issue for a very long time
[12:20] Andrew Hellershanks: AFAIK, it has been fixed in the development code.
[12:20] Ken Savage: They say that issue can only be fixed in the viewers
[12:20] Greybeard Thinker: hadn't seen that but my big var is not built up much yet
[12:21] Andrew Hellershanks: It might even have been fixed in 0.8.2 but I haven't tested that recently.
[12:21] Greybeard Thinker: did that even have vars?
[12:21] George Equus: HG and tp has been bit finicky after osg went to 0.9
[12:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: How can it be fixed in the viewers - hints please
[12:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Ken, there was an ini change that was supposed to help with that issue but it doesn't always work.
[12:22] Ken Savage: The TP issue isn't fixed and wont be until the viewer devs handle clearing things from memory differently from the departing sim
[12:22] Andrew Hellershanks: George, are you finding that when you TP between grids running the same version of OS or just when you are TPing between grids running different versions.
[12:22] Greybeard Thinker: I've found using a 32 bit viewer also helps to lower lag in big vars too
[12:23] oscar jones: im on 32 bit
[12:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: 95% of the viewer code is LL code and it assumes 32 bit
[12:23] Ken Savage: Ubit knows about the TP issue and has looked into it extensively and says it has to be fixed from the viewer end
[12:23] Greybeard Thinker: uhuh
[12:23] oscar jones: runs really well but so does firestorm 64 bit for me but less abilities
[12:23] Greybeard Thinker: that's good enough for me then if Ubit says that
[12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Ken, if that is the case it is an issue to be passed on to the viewer developers.
[12:24] Ken Savage: I hear there is work on a new viewer that uses NO linden code
[12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Ken, correct.
[12:24] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: WE have have huge vars, 20 x 20 for geo mapping. We modified the parcel code for things to run smoothly. Not sure if we will release the changes or if they would be useful
[12:24] Greybeard Thinker: I heard that rumour too
[12:25] Ken Savage: The problem is that the Viewers are not really coded to handle more than 15,000 prims because that is the limit on SL.
[12:25] Ken Savage: And vars can potentially have many more prims than that
[12:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: probalby correct Ken
[12:25] oscar jones: most of your viewer issues is undeleted files you gotta dig deep delete them all load new
[12:25] Greybeard Thinker: any version of opensim can lol
[12:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Billy, anything more than 8x8 is not recommended. If the regions are mainly empty you may get away with it.
[12:26] oscar jones: as soon as you get a new install make a backup of default
[12:26] Ken Savage: Yes, but for some reason, normal sims do not have the tp issue when they are loaded... maybe because they dont have the extra overhead with the extra terrain in a var
[12:26] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: I know Andrew, I keep hearing these things :)
[12:27] Greybeard Thinker: is it possible it's the extra parcel data in vars?
[12:27] Greybeard Thinker: and viewer devs aren't doing us any favours and keeping up with opensim developements?
[12:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: terrain data sounds like a candidate for problems
[12:27] Matilda Charron: what is the new viewer?
[12:27] Andrew Hellershanks: Billy, I've had populated 10x10's. It can take a while for the region to load, it can be laggy, and I find trying to build things in a 10x10 is very slow.
[12:28] Greybeard Thinker: same with any kind of terraforming
[12:28] Ken Savage: idk, but a 6x6 var has 36 times the amount of terrain data that is sent to the viewer... even if you limit the view distance
[12:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we are trying Grey, but it is damned hard to test on a fast moving undocumented target :-))
[12:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and the fast mover is not only OpenSim, but also the LL code that is moving very fast these days
[12:28] Greybeard Thinker: I know, I've been testing this since version 0.1
[12:28] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Well the viewers so far have not blown up, and we find useful. Not many prims as we are using pure terrain mapping
[12:28] Greybeard Thinker: and still have that one in my archive too
[12:29] George Equus: Tera forming is a joke really...
[12:29] George Equus: very crude
[12:29] Greybeard Thinker: compared to how things like Unity work now with terrain painting etc? yep we got some catching up to do on terrains
[12:30] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but I believe the viewer keeps the entire region terrain data in memory at all times, and does not discard it like the rest on demand
[12:30] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, LL code isn't moving that fast, AFAIK. Not when it comes to something affecting OS.
[12:30] Matilda Charron: making friends across grids is a bit awful
[12:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: It is moving very fast right now and difficult to port to OpenSim
[12:31] Andrew Hellershanks: Matilda, there is no new viewer yet but a new one has been started.
[12:31] Matilda Charron: I'm not your 3rd rock friend grey
[12:31] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Agree Matilda
[12:31] Ken Savage: I'm putting my hopes right now in the new viewer that Ubit and Melanie appear to be working on... no LL code!
[12:31] Greybeard Thinker: not Mati?
[12:31] Matilda Charron: what is the name Andrew?
[12:31] Matilda Charron: nope I kept getting offers and had dan kill them lol
[12:32] Greybeard Thinker: from what I've heard it could possibly be named UBITVIEW
[12:32] Matilda Charron: ah
[12:32] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: lol
[12:32] oscar jones: who would give the scriptors code to make a script to pass through terrain like a tunnel tru a mountain square or circle co-ordinates?
[12:32] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, if LL code is changing rapidly it is probably something for use with SL2.
[12:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: completely new web and http framework, big changes in the state machine and threading, new avatar
[12:32] Greybeard Thinker: oh Miss Mellie too ugh
[12:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: The problem is that all the OpenSim functionality exist on top of the LL code
[12:32] Ken Savage: I'll have to say, if anyone can do it, Ubit can.
[12:32] Greybeard Thinker: yep
[12:32] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: The SL viewer is a serious piece of kit
[12:33] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so changes to the LL code makes for a lot of changes to the underlying OS code too
[12:33] George Equus dreaming of the day tera forming is as swift, precise and immediate as in Trainsz...
[12:33] Greybeard Thinker: and full of holes
[12:33] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or overlying
[12:33] Matilda Charron: some one say hi to Ubit for me.. I miss seeing him around
[12:33] Greybeard Thinker: always wanted to build real terrain caves and such
[12:33] Greybeard Thinker: we tried in Aurora went boom
[12:34] Andrew Hellershanks: Matilda: There are still some issues with HG when doing cross grid type things such as friends and profiles. The new viewer doesn't have a name that I've heard. It will be a while before it will be ready. It is a mostly ground up build.
[12:34] Matilda Charron: I would like a mirror
[12:34] oscar jones: gotta have the code eh
[12:34] Matilda Charron: thank you Andrew
[12:34] Andrew Hellershanks: Matilda, yw
[12:35] oscar jones: if we had a script like that talk about makeing nice stuff eh
[12:35] Greybeard Thinker: there is a camera trick script that fakes mirrors
[12:36] Greybeard Thinker: no idea how well it works though
[12:36] Matilda Charron: well a real mirror would be nice the right way up
[12:36] George Equus: that's cheating Grey  :)
[12:36] Andrew Hellershanks: Greybeard, I've seen that.
[12:36] Greybeard Thinker: comes from the SL free script repo so may need massaging
[12:36] Matilda Charron: yes I had my own dressig table which did that
[12:36] oscar jones: i heard there is a scripted mirror clones ur avi to look at you
[12:37] Greybeard Thinker: probably is oscar
[12:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you can use a NPC for that
[12:37] Greybeard Thinker: as well
[12:37] Matilda Charron: realmirror better
[12:37] Andrew Hellershanks: oscar, Using an NPC would be another way to do that to a limited extent. Problem is the head of the NPC wouldn't follow the movement of your own avi's head.
[12:37] Greybeard Thinker: nope, would be opposite lol
[12:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hehe
[12:38] George Equus: exist in EVE   is very convincing too
[12:38] Matilda Charron: finally made a meeting lol
[12:40] Andrew Hellershanks: wow. We are almost two hours in. Time for me to get going.
[12:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and if you have more input on the viewer VAR issue, let us know