Chat log from the meeting on 2015-12-29

[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: hello :)
[11:05] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: Hell Neb
[11:05] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: Hello Mike
[11:05] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi mike
[11:06] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi neb
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: so how is everyone doing
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: anything interesting going on?
[11:08] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Not really i think
[11:08] vegaslon plutonian: keeping a eye on second life's project bento
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: cool
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: any idea how the TPV groups will handle it?
[11:09] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: keeping an eye on all the new commits and issues
[11:09] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi vega
[11:09] vegaslon plutonian: they will take it in from what I saw at the TPV meeting
[11:10] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: pff bento. i try to rig a normal avatar. but i select SL-Opensim with export. still the righ is missing when you upload
[11:10] vegaslon plutonian: cool vl veiwer has it implemented right now
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: nice
[11:10] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: that name. eeewww
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: i guess step one is someone will need to update libomv
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: to have required support
[11:11] vegaslon plutonian: currently firestorm will out right crash if it comes into contact with one of the avatars though
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:11] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: Hello Andrew
[11:11] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: yup
[11:11] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi andrew
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: what about sing based viewers?
[11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe... I'm still not used to TPing right in to the seating area.
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: im guessing this is limtied to SL Beta grid at the moment?\
[11:12] vegaslon plutonian: think they are waiting for the bones to be finalized
[11:12] vegaslon plutonian: ya
[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Sing based viewers for what? The new bones?
[11:12] vegaslon plutonian: think the most opensim has to do to make it work is add the extra attachment points
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: yea apparantly firestorm crashes if you come near a new avatar
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: i was wondering how singularity based viwers faired
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: bad that it crashes
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: really bad
[11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: It would be hard for me to tell. Sing will crash on me after a short while.
[11:13] vegaslon plutonian: ya they are concerned ask linden labs out right if they were going to have it ready before the end of feb
[11:13] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: Hopefully that mean the FS team will update their viewer quickly.  Crashes are never a good thing.
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: im not worried about FS
[11:13] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: they are usually leading the charge
[11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: FS is pretty good about updating the viewer.
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: its the other viewers that concern me
[11:14] vegaslon plutonian: they want to release a new veiwer before that happens, apearently firestorm crashes becouse they did not implement one of second lifes patches, kind of skipped over it
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: if Singularity doesnt come together, could spell the end of support for that viewer
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: we can pretty much write of Replex at this point I think
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: Kokua probably will be fine
[11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Other viewers that are basing their code on SL viewer code will get the changes when LL provides updated viewer code.
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: Singularity is the only one that worries me
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: and since OnLook is based on it
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: kind of bad if that project dissolves
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: as much as new bones are good
[11:15] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Hmm, why did the base onlook on old V1 viewer ? that's terrible
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: i fear this is going to be really really bad for opensim
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: in terms of viewer fragmentation
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: because the only people interested at the time were singularity devs
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: FS is focused on SL
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: not opensim
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: as far as I know too as of today, they have no one supporting opensim really
[11:16] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: true !!!
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: Ubit was saying he was speaking with Jessica last week or two
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: and she said none of the current devs use opensim
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: so they are struggeling to keep it up for us
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: but they want to
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: well she does at least
[11:18] Robert Adams: FS is willing... they just need a developer who wants to do it
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: yes
[11:19] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: sinulrity, not sure if the strugle to too kepe up.
[11:19] Mike D: Hey.
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: sounds like we have some time though, if SL hasnt locked down how it works yet
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: we cant really even consider anything until they do
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: or we run the risk of repeating the mesh implementation mistakes
[11:19] vegaslon plutonian: ya there is alot of back and forth about how secondlife wants to lock down animations
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: where we rushed to implement mesh support, then LL changed the format
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: and we had 100s of broken assets after that
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: if not 1000s
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: had to redo everything
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: so best to be patient there for sure
[11:20] vegaslon plutonian: ya best to wait for the RC Veiwer
[11:20] Robert Adams: still have broken assets... BulletSim creates it's own physical represenation of meshes but that conflicts with the way things are done these days.... but then there are the old assets
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: glad someone is following the dev work there though
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: cause i sure dont have the time too :)
[11:22] vegaslon plutonian: as much as is happening, all of Linden Labs is on on holiday this week
[11:22] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Still the blossemtreeflexi error following mee. and there's no tree rezzed.
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: richardus, that likely wont ever get fixed hehe
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: some assets are just broken forever
[11:22] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: unless opensim is not smart enough and count boxed items as running script too.
[11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: bbiab
[11:22] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: uhh no it's not a sacript
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: unless you really dig into the asset xml and fix it
[11:23] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Well, if you delete the asset from the sim, you would expoect the error dissapear. nope
[11:23] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: tree's are gone. error i still see
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: maybe its something else then
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: or you missed one
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: also
[11:24] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: area search not find anything. so if it's soemwhere it's good hidden
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: it very well could be a completeyl broken asset missing its parent
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: ive seen this occur
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: failed unlink
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: where all the child prims stay but the root is deleted
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: its impossible to delete these inworld anymore
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: and they do spew errors
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: you have to DB dive to clean
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: they also are inviisble inworld
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: so it seems like you actually deleted them
[11:25] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: time for a Question ?
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: sure
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: thats what these meetings are for
[11:26] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: again, Probl. cause red errors when i call preferences or Profiles
[11:26] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: 0.8 and 0.9
[11:26] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: wait
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: its a difference in profile modules maybe
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: you mean when you hypergrid to OSGrid?
[11:27] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: i have a NC with opensim-log
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: or is it occuring within just the confines of your own grid?
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: german :)
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: let me translate 1 sec
[11:27] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: yes
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: hmm odd message
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: The Index was out of range. He must not be negative and less than the listing.
[11:28] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: may be i made a mistake in my config
[11:28] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: i dont know
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: avatar properties
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: im not sure that is profile
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: ubit would know this
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: this sounds possible appearance problem
[11:29] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: yes but Profile is corect
[11:29] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: no wrong data in Profile or in Grouüs
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: ya i see it mentions profile very odd
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: does this happen when you teleport from region to region in your own grid?
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: or is it on login?
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: or only when you view profile it happens?
[11:30] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: only when i am on my Grid
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: has to be some kind of config issue then
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: i use the core profiles myself
[11:31] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: ok, thx neb
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: though
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: i see you are on windows
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: which i do not test
[11:31] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: yes
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: so there is always the slight possibility its a .net incompatibility
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: but i think if it was this problem would be more wide spread
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: more people mentioning it
[11:31] Simulator Version v0.5 ruft: OpenSim 0.9.0.0 Dev        37cb24d: 2015-12-24 01:21:15 +0000 (Unix/Mono)
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: if you want to pastebin your configs we can have a look
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: an opensim.ini and gridcommon.ini
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: just make sure you blank out db names and passwords
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: would need to see robust config too i guess
[11:33] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: i can show you, but not now
[11:33] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: #- OK ! -#
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: sure whenever you have time
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: nebadon2025@gmail.com
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: is my email
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: always reach me there as well
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: or on IRC
[11:33] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: can i add you to my FL ?
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: sure
[11:33] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: thank you
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: im assuming the server locale is en_us
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: even though the language is german
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: im not sure how windows handles that
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: but in linux using de as your locale
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: will break opensim
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: because it swaps , and .
[11:34] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm back and pretty much caught up.
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: you would be having more trouble i suspect if that was the case
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: but something to keep in mind
[11:35] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: you know, everything else is running verry good
[11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: Wolf, Are you using the addon or core profile code?
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: right if it was the locale thing
[11:35] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: no outher Probl. at all
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: stuff like teleporting would be broken
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: prim locations would get wierd
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: 100.00 becomes 10,000
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: etc..
[11:35] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: no addon
[11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. I haven't used the core profile code.
[11:35] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: i have diva wifi
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: questions
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: since you are using wifi
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: on the simulators are you using standard mysql.dll or the diva one?
[11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: I still can't get 0.8.0PF running again in standalone on my machine.
[11:36] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: i take the OSgrid dowload then put in my config...ready
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: ok your not dropping in diva dlls into the simulator code too are you?
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: and using her mysql?
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: you dont want to do that in grid mode
[11:37] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: yes MySQL and i use diva.DLL
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: only robust
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: try using stock mysql on simulators
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: and diva on robust only
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: see if that helps
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: you should not use her mysql dll on sims anymore
[11:37] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: oh good, i will try this
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: in grid mode
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: in the past it was required
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: but no longer is
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: in the past it was needed to display user stats on the wifi website
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: she has since done away with that
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: to keep better core compatibility for simulators
[11:38] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: ah
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: the simulator will not need any of her dlls infact
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: you can totallly eliminate that step for your update routines
[11:39] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: yes i try it
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: no idea if it will help, but worth a shot
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: rule out anything unnecessary
[11:40] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: lot of work, but i'll do untill it works clean
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: cool and ya if that doesnt work, we can take a look at your ini files
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: make sure things look correct
[11:42] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: thats good way, may be i contact you next Year begins
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: sure
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: whenever you have some time
[11:43] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: thanks Nebadon
[11:44] Samuel Greenway: speaking of viewers, I believe Kokua is still being actively worked on
[11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: Someone on IRC was asking about Rest support. The default INI indicates it is notworking. Any ideas what is wrong with it?
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: yes it appears it was
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: or is I mean
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: Kokua is still active somewhat
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: i think its trying to keep up with the SL updates anyway
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: which may or may not be a good thing for opensim
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: cause if they do pickup the new SL code
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: it may mean support for opensim is lost for a while
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: we just don't know yet how that code will effect us
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: fingers crossed its not too bad
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: not sure Andrew
[11:46] vegaslon plutonian: suspect it will be alot like fitted mesh which did the same thing, added more bones
[11:46] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Uhmm, neb. my fingers dont have bones :)
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: Melanie or Ubit might know
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: i suspect Avination uses the REST console
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: lol Richardus
[11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, ok. I'm not really sure what the Rest stuff is all about. Some sort of web technology, afaik. I don't know how to test it.
[11:47] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: already stopped using Remote admin. it stopped working for me. on windows
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: its a remote console
[11:47] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: lucky, not need it.
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: basically allows you to attach a remote console
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: to control a simulator
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: or other software to automate control
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: How is that different from the remote admin feature?
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think it is totally
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Almost sounds like two different ways to do the same thing.
[11:48] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Resy oi never got working
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: i think thats exactly what it is
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: im not as familiar i tried out radmin back in the day
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: there used to be an app you could run
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, an ini file says it doesn't work.
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: to have all of your opensim consoles in 1 window
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: but it wasnt so great
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: SSH and gnu screen was far superior
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: in my opinion
[11:49] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i tried it years ago with rest
[11:50] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: only used remote admin for starting oar backup
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: the radmin app didnt have history
[11:50] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: Under Linux I just inject commands into the console using tmux.  I prefer that to the remote admin for most things and makes script automation easier also.
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: so you couldnt like arrow up commands
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: you had to type everything every time
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: so i couldnt use it
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: was more work, not less
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: I think I've used remote admin to do oar backups.
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, keep the commands in a separate file and C&P them when needed. :)
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: i think radmin was heavily reliant on REST though
[11:51] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: bye Friends, thanks for infos, see you....
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: see you Wolf,
[11:51] Lani Global: for those wondering why some users get group invitations and not others... it's been tracked to Firestorm viewer fails with the OSSL function osInviteToGroup (key user) . other viewers seem to work fine with that function.
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Wolf.
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll look at radmin out of curiousity
[11:52] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: bye wolf
[11:52] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: wedll that would explain why it's broken
[11:52] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: mabye
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: ah good to know Lani
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: i assume they know about it now?
[11:52] Lani Global: not yet, it appears
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: well best thing to do is file a bug report with them
[11:53] Lani Global: we just tracked it positively the past month
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: dont even bother trying to contact them any other way first
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: until you do that
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: because that will be their first response
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: i gaurantee it
[11:53] Lani Global: yep
[11:53] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi lani. not sure if it's broken.
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: ossl functions operate in OS. There should be nothing viewer specific about them.
[11:53] Lani Global: that's what i thought, too, andrew... but not the case with this issue.
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: groups is wierd
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: SL has no real group LSL support
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: really bizarre.
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: OSSL is major hack
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: expect the unexpected
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: yeah. I would have thought it was just a different way to do a lot of standard things.
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: alot of the OSSL stuff is very hackish :)
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: not in a bad way
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: just becasue we are abusing protocols
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: in non standard ways
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: stuff that is big nono in LSL
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: my guess is the viewer support has to do with sending update signals
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. I thought it would have the same protocols as already existed for doing things. I haven't dug in to the implemenation details.
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: to tell the viewer these things are happening
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: might be some special viewer cap for that
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: a few times viewer caps are added for OSSL
[11:56] Lani Global: osInviteToGroup OSSL function is a cool feature for use with greeters and touch posters
[11:56] Samuel Greenway: maybe a V1 vs V2/3 issue
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think groups changed much
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: between v1/2/3
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: its more likely we are doing nonstandard things that FS didnt pick up
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: or intentionally ignored
[11:57] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: does lsl not have a group inviter ? sofar i know it does
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: it does not
[11:57] Lani Global: perhaps intentionally ignoring the source if not an avi
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: there were ways to bring up the group
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: but you had to manually join
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: unless they changed that
[11:57] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: ah
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: but i doubt it
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: since that could really be abused
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: you could send the entire grid a invite
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Most group inviters just spit out a URL that people click on to open the dialog box for the group so they can hit the Join buton
[11:58] Lani Global: the URL method was or is the only way in SL
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats right
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: it launched the web group link
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Still is, unless you use a bot.
[11:58] Lani Global: it was cumbersone
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: yes
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: and the viewer would autohandle the response
[11:58] Lani Global: yes, relay the user key to a bot
[11:59] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: what is that for annoying beep and some airplane type sound ?
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: I think I have the code for a group join bot lying around somewhere.
[11:59] Lani Global: would have to be a viewer client bot in sl
[11:59] Lani Global: perhaps an osNPC could be set up to do it
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: I wanted to work on an event reminder module but I got hung up trying to figure out why I can see event markers on a map but can't search for event details.
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: well if the OSSL worked correctly with FS
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: that should be plenty
[12:00] Lani Global: yes, agreed
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: you could compliment that with NPC sure
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: but it should still use OSSL
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: I was going to compare 080 and 082 event behaviour to try and track down the problem but I can't as I can't get 080 running on my machine any more.
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: best to file that report soon and if you can let jessica know
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: but do not push her to hard about it
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: just tell her once and see what happens
[12:01] Lani Global: yeah
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: we need to get a bit more cozy with them
[12:02] Lani Global: i've stopped using Firestorm due to all the things that fail in opensim
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: yea i only use it for Machinima
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: and I build with Replex
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: it has far superior shadows
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: and lighting
[12:03] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: I run FS for most things, although it can be quirky with some mesh imports
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: yes do not use it for mesh imports
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: i will upload everything in FULL LOD
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: on every level
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: no matter what you choose or tell it
[12:03] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: huh. och
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: use Replex or Singularity to upload
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: its way better
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: one reason FS feels faster uploading
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: is because it skips all that processing
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: not because its faster
[12:04] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: I need to look at that.  I haven't seen that noted anywhere before this
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: its possible newer versions they changed that
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: but I dont think so
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: like i said their focus has been SL
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: not opensim
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: it used to warn you
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: on first launch
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: that mesh uploads are not good for opensim
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: either on first launch or first upload
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: i think it was first upload
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: it would give a warning about opensim
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: Radegast does the same thing
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: uploads in full LOD always
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: which is good for stuff like terrain
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: or stuff you need 100% precision collide
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: usually more organic shapes
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: sharp geometric lines usually lower LOD is fine for collisions
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: but for big buildings and stuff that is purely visual
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: it is very wasteful of resources
[12:07] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: I create separate optimized meshes for physics.   Have been testing some recent changes with Ubit around that also for ubODE
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: that probably works ok in FS
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: its just the visual stuff
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: only time in FS that would effect physics is if you didnt specify a seperate collada file
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: it would be max
[12:08] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: I need to look at that for sure.   Not good if everything is high no matter what you tell it for LODs.
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: I usually say physics from file and point to the original dae file.
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: yes not good at all
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: not always
[12:09] Lani Global: Ubit is quite active recently with development.
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: Andrew yes i do that for stuff like terrain
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: yes Ubit is a machine :)
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: he makes me look very lazy
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: he makes most of us look lazy. :)
[12:09] Lani Global: amazing what he is doing.
[12:09] Lani Global: The Force is strong with that one.
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: yes he has been working on this stuff for years
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: on Avination grid
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: people dont realize this merge has taken literally years to complete
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: we have been talking about it for a long time now
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: and things were being done sort of behind the scenes for a long time
[12:10] Lani Global: so, this is The Year of The Merge.
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: i spoke about it on a few occasions
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: but mostly we didnt want to get anyone to excited because honestly we werent sure it could happen
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: several attemps were made and abandoned becuase it was not easy
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: Melanie, Misterblue, Diva and Ubit
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: Ubit finally was the one who got it over the line
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: it took way longer than expected
[12:12] Lani Global: we are much appreciative of that work.
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: Justin and I didnt make it easy
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: with our breakneck OSCC patchathons
[12:12] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: code is like that ... the devil is in the details
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: and really that is kind of why this all happened once justin left
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: the window opened :)
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: it was good timing all around, even though it sucks to loose someone like Justin
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: there was actually a lot of benefit to it as well
[12:14] Lani Global: what is needed to call it 1.0 ?
[12:14] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: Now we just need to find all the bugs and regressions so they can be fixed during the process
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: there is no real road plan for 1.0
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: 1.0 doesnt mean much either
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: it doesnt mean its complete
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: or not beta anymore
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: its mostly just a milestone
[12:15] Samuel Greenway: Opensim Server and Opensim Viewer = 1.0 :) heh
[12:15] Lani Global: yeah, well, most see sub-1 as not ready for public
[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: yea until we really have our own viewer
[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: its kind of hard to feel complete
[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: no matter what the version is
[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: but i sort of hope opensim is never complete :)
[12:15] Lani Global: so, we just need a browser viewer instead
[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: that would be super boring
[12:16] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: Is any software project truly "complete"?
[12:16] Uwe.Furse @hypergrid.org:8002: sure, the future is webgl ....
[12:16] Lani Global: look how long it has taken microsoft to complete windows.
[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: im not convinced of that
[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: that webgl is the future of opensim
[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: webgl is crazy weak
[12:16] Samuel Greenway: I think Melanie mentioned working some sort of viewer during OSCC
[12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Lani, they haven't completed Windows. They keep changing it.
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: web browsers are also very weak
[12:17] Lani Global: yes, andrew, my point
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: in threading and memory management
[12:17] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: It's far from complete. you mabye can think complete if you not need any LL part
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: you can not expcect firestorm or Chrome to be anywhere near as optimzied
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: as a high end gaming engine platform
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: web browsers are quite terrible
[12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: OS can never be "complete" as people will differ as to what features are needed for them to consider it complete.
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: opensim requires 1000s of connections
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: web browsers are not good at this
[12:18] Nebadon Izumi: perhaps in time things will get a lot better
[12:18] Lani Global: well, perhaps by the time we have a high end gaming viewer.... gaming boxes will be only used by a few people
[12:18] Nebadon Izumi: but WebGL as of today
[12:18] Nebadon Izumi: its not good enough
[12:18] Nebadon Izumi: it would be a highly degraded experience
[12:18] Nebadon Izumi: like going back to 2001
[12:18] Lani Global: these days, "its all about the mobile"
[12:19] Nebadon Izumi: I think opensim really needs is a modern game engine platform
[12:19] Lani Global: a lot of us have gaming laptops and high power desktop gaming mochines.... but most of the public is running on pads
[12:19] Nebadon Izumi: webgl is basically opengl 2.0 ES
[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: about what your current cell phone can do
[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: its not pretty
[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: things like windlight and particles and lots of animated objects
[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: very hard to do
[12:21] Lani Global: Cloud = Mainframe/dumb terminal
[12:21] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: It would be nice to be able to "travel" to/from an OpenSim region to one done in Unity, along with chat/IM
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: unity is an option
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: but the web browser again
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: is the weak link
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: controls are weak
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: you are basically limited to AWSD
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: and arrow keys
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: most of the F1-F12 keys are preassigned to web browsers
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: stuff like page up and down
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: doing stuff in web browser honestly
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: it sucks
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: really really bad
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: people say they want it
[12:22] Lani Global: at least, a native way to deliver a basic region experience to a mobile device would be cool. without downloading a viewer that takes all the memory in a mobile
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: but when they get it will not enjoy it
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: not even a little
[12:23] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: web browser is designed for a very different purpose
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: the web browser could be a good way to introduce new people
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: and transition them to a proper viewer
[12:23] Lani Global: perhaps the only way would be streaming it
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: but I think expecting a full on WebGL replacement
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: you can stop holding your breath now
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: its not going to happen
[12:24] Lucy Afarensis: whew !
[12:24] Nebadon Izumi: haha
[12:24] Nebadon Izumi: i hate to be negative about it
[12:24] Nebadon Izumi: i suppose time will tell though
[12:24] Nebadon Izumi: i would like to see a limited capability webgl portal for opensim though
[12:24] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: now we know the GL in WebGL stands for Good Luck
[12:24] Nebadon Izumi: people just need to realize it wont be a full replacement
[12:24] Nebadon Izumi: we need to temper expectations
[12:25] Lani Global: honestly, i believe, if we do not accept the mobile platform, we will be relegated to the trash heap of history
[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: well that is one reason unity is nice
[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: any app is automatically cross platform mostly
[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: with some minor adjustments
[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: its not a huge rewrite for every platform
[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: check this out
[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: 1 sec
[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: video link
[12:26] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002 looks for a pair of 3D glasses
[12:26] Nebadon Izumi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ol2APzqeMbA
[12:26] Nebadon Izumi: this was originally a WebGL demo i did
[12:26] Nebadon Izumi: with unity3d
[12:26] Samuel Greenway: You do have Lumiya for mobile and opensim but similar to radegast in quality
[12:26] Nebadon Izumi: i just got myself a Nvidia Shield K1
[12:27] Nebadon Izumi: i spent about an hour or so converting my webgl demo to a native android app
[12:27] Nebadon Izumi: .apk file
[12:27] Nebadon Izumi: that video above is a recording of it
[12:27] Nebadon Izumi: its completely standalone no opensim
[12:27] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: That's actually quite good
[12:27] Nebadon Izumi: but you can see its not that difficult to transition from the webgl to native apps
[12:28] Nebadon Izumi: yes the webgl demo was not as nice looking
[12:28] Nebadon Izumi: but close
[12:28] Nebadon Izumi: shadows were pretty terrible in webgl
[12:28] Nebadon Izumi: very blocky
[12:28] Nebadon Izumi: still Unity has potential
[12:28] Nebadon Izumi: its a great engine and its free'ish
[12:29] Nebadon Izumi: im not 100% sure its our best choice yet
[12:29] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: weell, i go. see you next year
[12:29] Nebadon Izumi: but its a choice
[12:29] Nebadon Izumi: ok Richardus
[12:29] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: It is free until you start making money with it, or need the debugging tools
[12:29] Andrew Hellershanks: yea, I should get going too.
[12:29] Nebadon Izumi: have great new years
[12:29] Nebadon Izumi: be safe
[12:29] Nebadon Izumi: :)
[12:29] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: you too
[12:29] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: bye
[12:29] Andrew Hellershanks: Happy new year, everyone.
[12:29] Nebadon Izumi: see you Andrew
[12:29] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: Have a great day everyone, take care
[12:30] Nebadon Izumi: k ya see you all next week or perhaps on IRC
[12:30] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: I should get back to trying to get some work done
[12:30] Nebadon Izumi: Sheera you have log and will post?
[12:30] Lucy Afarensis: Happy New Year all
[12:30] Nebadon Izumi: you too lucy
[12:30] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: Happy New Year to you all
[12:30] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002 waves and departs