Chat log from the meeting on 2008-02-05

I only caught the chatlog in the second half of the meeting, after the sim crashed through memory exhaustion the first time. Justincc 13:11, 5 February 2008 (PST)

[11:29] MasTuVu DansLaNuit: hi again
[11:30] Teravus Ousley: hehe, just disabled physics again to make sure it's working
[11:31] Charles Krinkeb: Hmm. I seem to be stuck.
[11:31] Lawson English: I be ruthed (Saijanai here)
[11:31] MasTuVu DansLaNuit: can not fly 4 me
[11:31] Teravus Ousley: yep. that's what it means to disable physics
[11:31] Teravus Ousley: .. no physics updates get done
[11:31] MasTuVu DansLaNuit: ok
[11:31] MasTuVu DansLaNuit: lol
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: mass login
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: thats good though it actually is able to handle that
[11:31] Teravus Ousley: everything gets completely locked into place that would have been done by physics
[11:32] Lawson English: I appear to fly, clientside though
[11:32] Teravus Ousley: it's good for testing and debugging
[11:33] You: charles: where are you getting your stats from. top?
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: wooooo
[11:34] Lawson English: does one mod appearance in rgular SL sim and then come here?
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: no
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: you have to create new parts
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: in your inventory 1st
[11:34] Hiro Protagonist: nah, you create new clothes/shape etc in inv
[11:34] Hiro Protagonist: then wear 'em
[11:34] Babblefrog Ballistic: Then you can mod appearance
[11:35] Charles Krinkeb: justin. Yes, stats were coming from top
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:35] You: anyway, where were we?
[11:36] Charles Krinkeb: I think the comment was just made that we need to be more concerned about working on our memory footprint.
[11:36] You: heh :)
[11:37] You: Certainly it's something I will start thinking about, though there may be more experience people who can get to the root of the issues quicker
[11:37] MasTuVu DansLaNuit: can not delete my cube
[11:37] You: it may also be a multi-area problem
[11:37] MasTuVu DansLaNuit: as yesterday ;)
[11:37] Teravus Ousley: well, I have a feeling that in this case.. it might have been unacked bytes overload
[11:37] Charles Krinkeb: There is a universal law that goes "All software will expand to fill available RAM plus 20%"
[11:37] You: hmm okay, do you intend to look at that, Ter?
[11:37] Hiro Protagonist: lmao Charles
[11:38] Teravus Ousley: .. then a slowdown in clientview.. which just exasperated the problem
[11:38] Babblefrog Ballistic: Do we need to do a better job of marking packets reliable/not
[11:38] You: I ask only so we don't dupe effort
[11:38] Charles Krinkeb: Question: If two avatars cross a region boundary, are they still ANPC to each other and can they "wear" their shape/skin across said region boundaries yet?"
[11:38] MasTuVu DansLaNuit: where are pizza and hamburgers here ? ;)
[11:38] Teravus Ousley: well, that might help
[11:39] Babblefrog Ballistic: Or implement some way to toss packets if more recent ones supersede the old ones
[11:39] Teravus Ousley: it would be a good point of investigation,
[11:39] Neas Bade: Babblefrog, that would be really good to do
[11:39] Neas Bade: honestly, that should help a reasonable amonut on the network front I think
[11:39] Teravus Ousley: the other thing that will help is joha's packet patch. Which he said he was testing now and may have something ready two weeks
[11:39] Babblefrog Ballistic: Not that I have any clie how to do that :-)
[11:39] Hiro Protagonist: I think that the network is really starting to become an issue for me
[11:40] You: Teravus: this is on top of the patch we saw a month or so ago?
[11:40] Hiro Protagonist: I think that one got rolled back
[11:40] You: I thought it did but then it got back in once it was fixed
[11:40] Teravus Ousley: yep, it wasn't quite ready for prime time
[11:40] You: oh okay
[11:41] Teravus Ousley: so Joha made it function by generating new packets again
[11:41] You: I take it he's not working on it all the time then?
[11:42] Babblefrog Ballistic: My bandwidth is really spiky here. Looks like a symptom of something
[11:43] Babblefrog Ballistic: less than 20 for a few seconds, then about 450 for a few seconds, then back down again, repeat
[11:43] You: anybody have anything else they want to bring up? Apart from our memory footprint :)
[11:43] Teravus Ousley: yeah, on the textures for me
[11:43] Teravus Ousley: 0---450kb/s and back again.. over and over
[11:43] Babblefrog Ballistic: yeppers
[11:43] Diva Canto: so which one of you is working on search?
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: strange
[11:44] Hiro Protagonist: oh, I wanted to bring up temp assets
[11:44] You: huh, so it is
[11:44] Hiro Protagonist: specifically, the purging thereof
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think anyone is working on search currently are they?
[11:44] You: Diva: I don't think anybody here is currently doing anything on search
[11:44] Hiro Protagonist: I dont think so at present
[11:44] Diva Canto: ok, cool, just wanted to make sure I don't step on anyone's foot :-)
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: might be something thats thought about in the next release
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: .6
[11:45] You: diva: in my opinion, it would be good if it could be done largely outside the opensim codebase
[11:45] You: which would give you more freedom to just get stuff done with any language/license you like
[11:45] Babblefrog Ballistic: you can mark assets as "temp" in the region server and they don't get sent to the asset server. Terrain is handles this way, but I don't think anything else is
[11:45] Diva Canto: yep, that's what I think too
[11:45] Charles Krinkeb: I'm a bit distracted by two meetings.
[11:45] Diva Canto: the only thing that would need to be dome here are two things:
[11:46] Diva Canto: (1) the data representations and the sims
[11:46] Teravus Ousley: parhaps some kind of packet that we can send the client to use a cached version?
[11:46] Teravus Ousley: instead of requesting a new one?
[11:46] Teravus Ousley: (with the textures)
[11:46] Diva Canto: (a) the open search facility, which we now host at metaversink.com, but we'll be happy to pass it on to you
[11:46] Diva Canto: sirry that was (b) :-)
[11:47] Babblefrog Ballistic: textures: if it has a cached one, I don't think it should ever ask for another one, unless I misunderstand how things work
[11:47] You: babblefrog: yeah, that's true
[11:47] Hiro Protagonist: wrt temp assets, I think my concern is to see them be truly temp, and purged from existence period regardless of grid/standalone mode
[11:47] Teravus Ousley: you'd think... but it is appearing to ask for them over and over again.
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: yea thats really odd
[11:47] Hiro Protagonist: *periodically, sorry :)
[11:47] You: hiro: yueah, you're talking about never passing them up to the asset server
[11:47] You: ping
[11:47] You: is there some way to specify that currently in the client?
[11:47] Babblefrog Ballistic: what should be temp? that's the question.
[11:47] Hiro Protagonist: that, or being able to pass on to the asset server that they may be safely discarded
[11:48] You: diva: yeah, I think it's going to be a long process - I think you'll need considerable persistence unless somewhere is really taken with it (dalien sounded quite keen?)_
[11:48] Hiro Protagonist: well, BF, for instance, textures that are supplied via URL
[11:48] You: sorry s/somewhere/someone
[11:49] You: arse
[11:49] You: diva: though I'm happy to help somewhat - I'm constrained by the fact that IBM doesn't allow me to incorporate 3rd party code into opensim
[11:49] Hiro Protagonist: LoL
[11:49] You: chat lagging
[11:49] Babblefrog Ballistic: you should be able to flag them as temp when you load them, and they will never get to the db, though they stay in the asset cache indefinitely
[11:49] Neas Bade: any of the 3Di guys around?
[11:49] You: babble: oh, there's somethign int he client?
[11:49] Charles Krinkeb: Chi was here.
[11:49] Neas Bade: I just noticed a press release by them on open source voice
[11:50] You: babbleforg: can't see anything obvious
[11:50] Babblefrog Ballistic: no, I was thinking in the region. Are URL assets loaded directly by the client?
[11:50] Diva Canto: Justin: I don't think we need to incorporate much code, almost nothing really
[11:50] You: diva: hmm, sounds good
[11:50] Hiro Protagonist: They would seem to be from looking at the logs
[11:50] Diva Canto: from what I understand OpenSim already has the ability to generate XML representation of the things inside, right?
[11:50] Babblefrog Ballistic: And do they get sent to the region, then?
[11:50] You: diva: yes
[11:50] Charles Krinkeb: Diva, Yes
[11:51] You: babblefrog: I think so, then the region passes them on to the asset server
[11:51] Babblefrog Ballistic: why the heck would they do that? :-)
[11:51] Diva Canto: so, that should be pretty straightforward. The server just needs to respond to requests to send those xml files to whoever asks
[11:51] You: if you're talking about vanilla client upload... (I might have the wrong end of the stick)
[11:52] Babblefrog Ballistic: I may be completely confused...
[11:52] Diva Canto: There's some issues we should have in mind about access controls, ,security, privacy, and that stuff; I'm not sure exactly what it's being spit out, but I'm sure that can be worked out
[11:52] Charles Krinkeb: 10 avatars, 30% CPU, 768MByte VIRT
[11:52] You: diva: permissions are largely unimplemented at the moment (in terms of opensim native perms)
[11:53] You: charles: yeah, asset cache is low, so it's definitely not that
[11:53] Diva Canto: ok, so we can start with that -- no permission. They can be added later
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: crashed again
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: anyone have chat logs enabled?
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: i dont
[11:53] You: diva: persumably you need t the location of objects in regions?
[11:53] Diva Canto: but essentially, all a search engine needs is to be able to get those XML files
[11:53] Diva Canto: yes, locations would be good
[11:53] Babblefrog Ballistic: I'm still not sure what permissions we should implement. Are we thinking of replicating the LL permissions?
[11:54] Teravus Ousley: nope we're still missing a packet that allows for the chats to be logged
[11:54] Diva Canto: I would hope you would do better than LL's permissions
[11:54] You: well, I guess we're a little constrained by the client atm
[11:54] Teravus Ousley: disabling physics again. looks like thigns are starting to get out of controll possibly
[11:54] You: untl other clients come along it will be difficult to do anything different with perms...?
[11:54] You: teravus: you can disable physics on the fly?
[11:54] Teravus Ousley: I'm disabling physics to see if they start to get under control
[11:54] Teravus Ousley: yes
[11:54] Diva Canto: so is there any way that I can ask a grid to give me the names of the sims in it?
[11:54] Charles Krinkeb: 10 avatars, 25% CPU, 905MByte VIRT
[11:54] Teravus Ousley: physics is disabled
[11:55] Diva Canto: (I tried with libsecondlife here, but it didn't work)
[11:55] You: teravus: cool
[11:55] Hiro Protagonist: Diva: http://www.osgrid.org/opensim/list_regions.php
[11:55] Charles Krinkeb: OSGrid can read the regions table and present it at http://www.osgrid.org/opensim/sims.php now, Diva.
[11:55] Teravus Ousley: are we getting any better on memory, Charles?
[11:55] You: I suspect Diva wants an automated method?
[11:55] MasTuVu DansLaNuit: what is the CPU used for this server ?
[11:55] You: 917mb
[11:55] Diva Canto: yes, automated would be much better
[11:55] MasTuVu DansLaNuit: 386DX40 ? ;)
[11:56] Diva Canto: and not just the regions but, in the case I grab XML files, I need to know the server names
[11:56] Teravus Ousley: ok, alas. was an idea
[11:56] Diva Canto: I'd like something like this: tagus.ics.uci.edu:9000/tagus.xml -- or something to that effect
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: man crash party 2008
[11:56] You: Diva: well, I think most region communication is udp to clients atm (apart from caps)
[11:57] You: Please someone shout me down if I'm talking out of my arse
[11:57] Diva Canto: ok, I can write a little client to do that. I still need the names of the servers to contact, though
[11:57] Babblefrog Ballistic: and the interregions stuff which is dotnet remoting
[11:57] You: Diva: so exposing the xml will require an open port on the servers for some kind of rest like request, I iomagine
[11:58] Babblefrog Ballistic: Can we add a rest server to the existing http service on the regions?
[11:58] Diva Canto: have yo uguys thought of sticking an HTTP server along with the opensim server?
[11:58] Lawson English: UDP is 95^ of all packet types and 99% + of all packets
[11:58] You: well, there already are http servers running for things
[11:58] Diva Canto: that would be really handy! that way, the sims can serve images too, which are nice to show in search results
[11:59] Diva Canto: all done by the individual sims, no need to put that at the grid
[11:59] Lawson English: careful you don't get into the trap LL is currently in where sims do too much
[11:59] You: sometimes sims are people's boxes sitting in their garage
[11:59] You: connected over a DSL :)
[11:59] Diva Canto: yes -- like mine, for example. not im my garage, but here in my office :-)
[11:59] Lawson English: even so, design-wise, might be better to factor it off to the side
[12:00] Babblefrog Ballistic: this should be small, just serving up whatever data the search server needs to index
[12:00] Hiro Protagonist: that's me :)
[12:00] Babblefrog Ballistic: one xml file
[12:00] Charles Krinkeb: 11 avatars, 28% CPU, 1015MByte VIRT
[12:00] Hiro Protagonist: (box, garage, DSL lmao)
[12:00] Diva Canto: yep -- an xml file for the indexing is a great start
[12:00] Diva Canto: them, the images for the search results would be nice too. but we can talk about that later if you are concerned about performance
[12:01] Diva Canto: *then
[12:01] Hiro Protagonist: time for me to grab some lunch :)
[12:01] Hiro Protagonist: see y'all soon
[12:01] You: bye hiro
[12:01] Teravus Ousley: take care man
[12:01] Diva Canto: bye
[12:01] Hiro Protagonist waves
[12:01] You: we're up to 1100mb I see
[12:02] Teravus Ousley: paging territory
[12:02] You: just pushed up to 1139mb even with the log off :)
[12:02] Charles Krinkeb: Me. Too. I need to go. Its great that we can support as many as we did. It is unfortunate we seem to be up against memory limits.
[12:02] You: 1181mb
[12:02] You: I'm going to stand here until ewverything go boom
[12:02] Teravus Ousley: it seems to curve faster as it gets worse
[12:02] Babblefrog Ballistic: I need to go too. nice talking to everybody.
[12:02] Charles Krinkeb: Diva. Try to take some time and walk around the plaza here and see a) hall of scripts and b) video booths.
[12:02] You: 1197mb
[12:03] MasTuVu DansLaNuit: ok but what is the proc ? ;)
[12:03] You: bye babblefrog
[12:03] Diva Canto: same here. I'll try the IRC later to continue this conversation about search. I think it can happen very quickly, with a little help on your side :-)
[12:03] You: 1209mb
[12:03] Diva Canto: it'd be very cool!
[12:03] Charles Krinkeb: Bye
[12:03] You: Diva: hmm, I think actually there's quite a few complications in the way
[12:03] Diva Canto: yes justin? tell me
[12:03] You: it's something which really needs to be kicked around on sldev imo
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: wow its almost like we are making a microsoft product
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: i know how we can fix it
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: make 8 gig memory requirement
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: baam
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: prolem solved
[12:04] You: nebadon heh
[12:04] You: diva: well, I think it's getting something which is solid and can be used by anybody who wants to come along an implement a search server
[12:04] You: which always takes time to nail down
[12:04] You: but then, some other dev may come along and hack something up quickly to make me look silly :)
[12:05] You: it;'s happened before (more than once)
[12:05] Neas Bade: it would be nice to get the search bar in the client to come back to us
[12:05] Diva Canto: ok, I understand. We've been doing SL search fr several months, so I know a lot about what it takes to make one. But I think this needs to be discussed amongst yourselves. So that's cool.
[12:06] You: Diva: oh I'm sure you're correct on the search front, it's just the interface that concerns me
[12:06] Diva Canto: yeah, I know. It should be pretty solid there
[12:06] Diva Canto: and make a coherent story with lots of other things
[12:07] Neas Bade: honestly, I'm not sure that we actually need a seperate database for search
[12:07] You: but to be honest, unless a dev is really intetested, I don't think all that much will happen unless you push it
[12:07] Neas Bade: though I should get in on the thread
[12:07] You: lots of other things to fix (such as this memory issue)
[12:07] Diva Canto: How can I push it without being "pushy" ? :-)
[12:07] Neas Bade: pulling in lucene (or another Open Source search engine) based on object metadata probably will work pretty well enough
[12:07] You: diva: heh good question - patches are always good ;)
[12:08] Diva Canto: ok, I'll start lookign at your code for generating XML
[12:08] You: 1221mb, but we seem to bhave stablizied somewhat
[12:08] Teravus Ousley: well frame time is getting longer?
[12:08] You: diva: you're going to be frightened I think
[12:08] Diva Canto: is it that ugly, hey ? :-)
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[12:08] You: ugly duckling
[12:08] Teravus Ousley: well consider that the simulator is running slower then it should be right now
[12:08] Teravus Ousley: .. maximum frame time should be 100ms *total*
[12:09] Teravus Ousley: otherwise we're doing too much
[12:09] You: Teravus: I see what you mean
[12:09] You: that pesky (Other) time again
[12:09] Diva Canto: ok, I'll take a look at the ugly duckling, and see how frithened I get
[12:09] Teravus Ousley: 100 ms is how much time in between frames at 10 frames per second
[12:10] You: 1279mb
[12:10] You: rate of increase has slowed but still increasing
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: oh btw incase everyone doesnt know, i fixed the forgot password form on http://www.osgrid.org
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: hehe seeing More Wrights name reminded me
[12:11] Neas Bade: heh
[12:11] Diva Canto: ok, nice to meet your avatars in person!
[12:11] You: nice to meet you Diva
[12:11] Diva Canto: ttyl!
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: later
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: check out the usage of the OSL over by the video screens too
[12:12] You: 1298mb
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: using the Dynamic Texture load
[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: that bounce is wierd
[12:15] You: did anybody get the chat log before the interregnum?
[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: i crashed about 5 times
[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: i got nohin
[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: nothin
[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: i keep forgetting to turn on chat logs
[12:16] You: ah,I forgot to save it when I relogged when charles rebooted the region server
[12:16] Teravus Ousley: no, we still have not implemented the packet that turns chat logging ability on.