Chat log from the meeting on 2010-08-03

[09:59] Nebadon Izumi: hello
[09:59] Master Dubrovna: Hi Neb
[10:00] Justin Clark-Casey is Online
[10:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Hey, nebadon
[10:01] Nebadon Izumi: hello
[10:01] Nebadon Izumi: hey Justin
[10:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Hey, Justin
[10:01] Justin Clark-Casey: he nebadon, folks
[10:01] Master Dubrovna: Hi Justin
[10:01] Andrew Hellershanks: I got here early for a change
[10:02] Nebadon Izumi: hehe nice
[10:02] Justin Clark-Casey: aaarrgh
[10:03] Nebadon Izumi: im doing some SimianGrid Testing in the background
[10:03] Nebadon Izumi: eep what happened?
[10:03] Justin Clark-Casey: I accidentally took the screen while doing something else. Could you reposition it ?
[10:03] Justin Clark-Casey: sorry
[10:03] Nebadon Izumi: hehehehe no problem
[10:03] Entering god mode, level 255
[10:03] Master Dubrovna: Hi Rich
[10:03] Nebadon Izumi: there we go
[10:03] Nebadon Izumi: locked it up
[10:04] Nebadon Izumi: im acutally suprised it wasnt already locked
[10:04] Justin Clark-Casey: you might want to take me off the manager list for this region :)
[10:04] Richardus Raymaker: hi all
[10:04] Andrew Hellershanks: :-)
[10:04] Justin Clark-Casey: hi richardus
[10:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Hey, Richardus
[10:05] Nebadon Izumi: heh no worries it happens
[10:05] Nebadon Izumi: we have backups
[10:05] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[10:05] Richardus Raymaker: what happend this time ?
[10:05] Justin Clark-Casey: my fat fingers
[10:05] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[10:05] Nebadon Izumi: i do it all the time
[10:06] WhiteStar Magic is Online
[10:06] Richardus Raymaker: can we empty the trashcan
[10:06] Nebadon Izumi: not yet
[10:06] Nebadon Izumi: were still working on that
[10:07] Andrew Hellershanks: No sanitation engineers in this grid? ;-)
[10:07] Nebadon Izumi: Warin was supposed to be looking into it but he must have gotten busy
[10:07] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya were like Italy or something
[10:07] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[10:07] Richardus Raymaker: my trash start to grow to a size i get restless :)
[10:07] Nebadon Izumi: ya i'll try to see if we can get something worked out soon
[10:07] WhiteStar Magic: IAR backups up your Trash Too
[10:08] Nebadon Izumi: heh
[10:08] Nebadon Izumi: ya we'll have something worked out soon
[10:08] Nebadon Izumi: its better than loosing all your inventory though
[10:09] Justin Clark-Casey: so what's the latest news - anything exciting going on?
[10:09] Richardus Raymaker: yes
[10:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Just been working on some wiredux and ossearch changes.
[10:09] Nebadon Izumi: well some good news about OSgrid getting to 0.7 we have made some progress on the SimianGrid Connetors for Robust
[10:10] Nebadon Izumi: meaning we are a bit closer to website migration and migrating to 0.7
[10:10] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm going to be commiting a change to wiredux that lets it parse and save all of the json sim stats.
[10:10] Nebadon Izumi: still lots to do though in terms of dev and testing before we are able to go live
[10:10] Revolution Smythe: Andrew: work with 0.7?
[10:10] OtakuMegane Desu: That's good. Could use some improved code lol
[10:10] WhiteStar Magic: I still thinking sometime Mid Late August ?
[10:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Revolution, I'm only working with 0.6.9 PF
[10:10] Revolution Smythe: ok
[10:10] Revolution Smythe: i have it with 0.7
[10:10] Master Dubrovna: Any big issues Nebadon?
[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: nothing i know of Daves doing most of the work there
[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: i have a URL if your interested in inspecting what he has done
[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: let me dig that out
[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: 1 sec
[10:11] Master Dubrovna: cool
[10:11] Justin Clark-Casey: don't wiredux/ossearch and simiangrid now handle the same functionality?
[10:11] Andrew Hellershanks: ossearch is parsing and saving all info to the databases now. I'm at the point of dealing with getting search results back to the viewer but i need more info on what needs to be passed back.
[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: http://github.com/coyled/zira
[10:12] WhiteStar Magic: for *Imprudence People who are not aware, RC1 was released this AM... Darn Good Job on it;
[10:12] Nebadon Izumi: Zira is a fork of SimianGrid
[ http://code.google.com/p/openmetaverse/ ] to provide a SimianGrid API interface to an OpenSimulator ROBUST backend. This will allow, for example, use of the SimianGrid web frontend with a stock OpenSim ROBUST backend.
[10:12] Revolution Smythe: Andrew: it mostly is all there in osSearch
[10:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, I haven't looked at SimianGrid
[10:12] Revolution Smythe: Justin: Simian will, but not yet
[10:12] Revolution Smythe: Andrew: i have search all completed
[10:12] Revolution Smythe: i can fill in the little pieces are you missing about search order and etc
[10:13] Revolution Smythe: you are*
[10:13] Richardus Raymaker: ok whitestar
[10:13] Andrew Hellershanks: Revolution, I could see if I could use some things from osSearch but I'm working with functionality used by the viewer when you hit the Search button
[10:14] Master Dubrovna: Thanks for the info Whitestar. I had looked on Imprudence website this morning but was too early I guess.
[10:14] Richardus Raymaker: im testing 0.7 with hypergrid. only needed to wipe database yesterday. culd not login anymore and after that something else made it worser
[10:14] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm reading up about this object caching they mentioned
[10:14] Revolution Smythe: Justin: i almost have that done
[10:15] Revolution Smythe: i have ObjectUpdateCompressed done as well
[10:15] Revolution Smythe: and being sent properly
[10:15] Justin Clark-Casey: revolution: oh really, OpneSim support for that?
[10:15] Justin Clark-Casey: coool
[10:15] Revolution Smythe: just sorting out the CRC code atm
[10:15] Andrew Hellershanks: brb
[10:15] Justin Clark-Casey: are you planning on contributing that to opensim?
[10:15] Revolution Smythe: nice job with the moap branch so far
[10:15] Revolution Smythe: it will be released yeah
[10:15] Justin Clark-Casey: nice
[10:15] Nebadon Izumi: ya sounds good
[10:15] Nebadon Izumi: lots of stuff happening
[10:15] Richardus Raymaker: armin, do we have some imprudence talk after this meeting ?
[10:15] Jmaranhense Abrastraza: hi everyone
[10:16] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, I'm regarding it as pretty much done now. I made some last minute changes to serialization
[10:16] Nebadon Izumi: i heard this morning that the newest Imprudence now has a new clock
[10:16] Revolution Smythe: yup
[10:16] Nebadon Izumi: that allows you to display UTC time and not SLT time now
[10:16] Justin Clark-Casey: if it seems okay over the next few days I'm going to merge it in to mastedr
[10:16] Richardus Raymaker: hehe
[10:16] Richardus Raymaker: no armin. sorry
[10:16] Richardus Raymaker: aha UTC, nice
[10:16] Nebadon Izumi: about time someone did that hehe but good stuff that should really be helpful to everyone
[10:16] WhiteStar Magic: 12 OR 24 hr format as well
[10:16] Master Dubrovna: nice
[10:16] WhiteStar Magic: no more getting confused
[10:16] WhiteStar Magic: LOLO
[10:17] Penny Lane is Online
[10:17] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya something tells me people will still be confused but hey SLT time was just stupid
[10:17] Nebadon Izumi: being its always 1 hour off
[10:17] Revolution Smythe: thats the grids fault
[10:17] WhiteStar Magic: SLT = SillyLindenTime
[10:17] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[10:17] Revolution Smythe: the DST setting is sent by the grid LoginXML
[10:17] Richardus Raymaker: noyt Stupid ?
[10:17] Nebadon Izumi: ya our server is set to URC
[10:17] Nebadon Izumi: UTC*
[10:18] Richardus Raymaker: hi penny
[10:18] Justin Clark-Casey: btw, how ar epeople managing region estate membership atm, is it only by maniupatling the dtabase
[10:18] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[10:18] Nebadon Izumi: i asked melanie the other day, she said there are console tools coming
[10:18] Justin Clark-Casey: hmm, ok
[10:18] Nebadon Izumi: but there was some kind of issue with Remote Admin that needs to be fixed 1st
[10:18] Nebadon Izumi: that was the hold up
[10:18] Justin Clark-Casey: it's pretty poor atm
[10:19] Revolution Smythe: you can use the viewer to do some of it
[10:19] Dave Coyle is Online
[10:19] Frank Northmead is Online
[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: ya true
[10:19] Richardus Raymaker: in 0.7 nebadon ?
[10:19] Richardus Raymaker: in 0.7 nebadon ?
[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: the important stuff mostly requires DB diving
[10:19] Justin Clark-Casey: estate settings, right? But presumably not which estates a region belongs to?
[10:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, yes. DB management
[10:19] Richardus Raymaker: does remote admin have really its own port in 0.7 ?
[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: ya i do not expect any estate managment stuff to ever show up in 0.6.9 Rich
[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: it will be 0.7+ only
[10:20] Richardus Raymaker: i think that answhere is for justin
[10:20] Justin Clark-Casey: yes - if something is on the way then that's good
[10:21] OtakuMegane Desu: Hmm, how does 0.7 handle scripts and objects crossing borders? Or does it yet?
[10:21] Richardus Raymaker: only thing i wish is a seperate remote admin port not the same as teh region
[10:21] Justin Clark-Casey: although I guess people don't really split regions amongst different estates yet anyway:?
[10:21] Revolution Smythe: depends on the script engine
[10:21] Revolution Smythe: JCC: I do
[10:21] Revolution Smythe: but i havea different database structure for estates
[10:21] Nebadon Izumi: very few Justin i think a few have experimented but wide scale i would say no
[10:21] Nebadon Izumi: its not being used
[10:21] Justin Clark-Casey: revolution: ah, on the simian backend?
[10:21] Richardus Raymaker: hmm Justin. for me its 1 region / instance
[10:21] Revolution Smythe: nope
[10:21] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't think its possible to have parts of a region owned by different estate owners.
[10:21] Justin Clark-Casey: on your own backend?
[10:21] Revolution Smythe: yes
[10:22] Arielle Popstar: i tried to drive nebs racer over. Wasnt a good idea ;)
[10:22] Andrew Hellershanks: 1 region, 1 estate owner
[10:22] Revolution Smythe: lol Arielle
[10:22] Justin Clark-Casey: ok :)
[10:22] Nebadon Izumi: you can have multiple estate owners
[10:22] Nebadon Izumi: but they will always share the same settings
[10:22] OtakuMegane Desu: Lol
[10:22] Nebadon Izumi: i mean Estate Managers
[10:22] Nebadon Izumi: not owners
[10:22] Richardus Raymaker: how did the concrete wall feeled arielle :)
[10:22] Nebadon Izumi: there really is no differnce in terms of control between estate owner and manager
[10:22] Nebadon Izumi: they have same abilities
[10:22] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, yes. I have regions with multiple estate managers
[10:23] Nebadon Izumi: you can only have 1 estate per region
[10:23] Frank Northmead is Offline
[10:23] Arielle Popstar: it was the water that felt like a wall
[10:23] Frank Northmead is Online
[10:23] Andrew Hellershanks: I think there are a few things you can't do as estate manager but nothing needed in day to day use.
[10:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Been a while since I looked at owner vs. manager abilities
[10:24] Revolution Smythe: theres alot that isn't in OpenSim for estate settings
[10:24] Revolution Smythe: like full Telehub support
[10:24] WhiteStar Magic: Pet Peeve 632
[10:24] Richardus Raymaker: sofar i saw in 0.7 ban list works., but access list still offline
[10:24] Andrew Hellershanks: A lot of things don't show on the maps. You can't have it show what land is for sale (for example)
[10:25] Revolution Smythe: well, you can
[10:25] Revolution Smythe: i patched that in osSearch a bit
[10:25] Teravus Ousley is Online
[10:25] Revolution Smythe: a partial patch since it used my backend to serve it up
[10:25] WhiteStar Magic: BTW Nebadon, just FYI, I upgraded 3RG to Current 6.9-PostFix and it's running quite sweet after some minor tweakage on Win Servers
[10:25] Nebadon Izumi: thats still php based search Rev?
[10:26] Revolution Smythe: osSearch is
[10:26] Revolution Smythe: mine is not
[10:26] Nebadon Izumi: cool
[10:26] Nebadon Izumi: ahh
[10:26] Nebadon Izumi: yours is C#?
[10:26] Revolution Smythe: yes
[10:26] Revolution Smythe: works grid wide as well
[10:26] Nebadon Izumi: cool you think that will scale ok?
[10:26] WhiteStar Magic: REV... WE WANT YOUR GIT !!!
[10:26] Nebadon Izumi: search is nasty
[10:26] Revolution Smythe: lool
[10:26] Nebadon Izumi: compared to alot of things
[10:26] Justin Clark-Casey: ha ha
[10:26] WhiteStar Magic: GIVE THE GIT !!
[10:26] OtakuMegane Desu: I should think it would work a bit better than php
[10:27] Nebadon Izumi: ya im not sure about that honestly
[10:27] Nebadon Izumi: C# hasnt made the best HTTP servers to date
[10:27] Andrew Hellershanks: Revolution, what is osSearch? Makes me thing of an OpenSim specific scripting function
[10:27] Revolution Smythe: osSearch is on the forge
[10:27] Revolution Smythe: its the current search implementation
[10:27] Nebadon Izumi: its more about apache than php
[10:27] Revolution Smythe: current public
[10:27] Andrew Hellershanks: oh. hehe... just case differences.
[10:27] Revolution Smythe: hehe, yeah
[10:27] WhiteStar Magic: http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/ossearch/
[10:27] Nebadon Izumi: ya ossearch on forge is broken
[10:27] Nebadon Izumi: i wouldnt even bother honestly
[10:27] Teravus Ousley hides in the cordner
[10:28] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm used to seeing it all lowercase.
[10:28] Nebadon Izumi: hey Ter
[10:28] Revolution Smythe: hey Teravus
[10:28] Justin Clark-Casey: ha, I see you, Teravus :)
[10:28] Richardus Raymaker: hi terav
[10:28] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[10:28] OtakuMegane Desu: Hmm
[10:28] Justin Clark-Casey: you're working on ossearch though, right Andrew?
[10:28] WhiteStar Magic: teh Datasnapshots are not being created anymore which pretty much killed any use of the ossearch
[10:28] Bohny Spad: oh hello
[10:29] Revolution Smythe: yup
[10:29] Andrew Hellershanks: ossearch is working for the most part. Its just a problem with getting all the data needed by a viewer to be passed back in search results.
[10:29] WhiteStar Magic: we have it running and it's a bear to keep it alive, pretty well pointless really
[10:29] Nebadon Izumi: hey WhiteStar after the meeting i have a hack for you
[10:29] Nebadon Izumi: to get 4gb of memory use in 32 bit opensim loader
[10:29] Nebadon Izumi: in x64 windows
[10:29] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, yes. I've fixed up some issues with parsing. I need more info about what the viewer expects to be able to get all of the data the viewer wants.
[10:29] WhiteStar Magic: I hacked w2K3 Servers this AM and now they are fully using everything avail to them
[10:29] Nebadon Izumi: and you dont need Visual Studio Pro
[10:29] Revolution Smythe: Andrew: what parts have you had issues with?
[10:30] Nebadon Izumi: you just need C++ Express installed
[10:30] Nebadon Izumi: for some reason editbin.exe is not included in C#
[10:30] WhiteStar Magic: Well, I was hoping to use that as well I saw your posting yesterday and looked into other things on top of that too
[10:30] WhiteStar Magic: those are gone now
[10:30] Andrew Hellershanks: Revolution, Land Sales search isn't returning land type, or some of the details about the regions found so you can't hit the TP button to go a place in search results.
[10:30] Nebadon Izumi: cool check this out what i did yesterday
[10:30] Revolution Smythe: ahhh
[10:30] Revolution Smythe: i know those
[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: let me dig out screenshot
[10:31] Richardus Raymaker: what do we want to do with land sal search ? :P
[10:31] Frank Northmead is Offline
[10:31] Andrew Hellershanks: Revolution, I also want to have objects appear in search results.
[10:31] WhiteStar Magic: ODE 11.1 in 64Bit has me more excited at the potential
[10:31] Revolution Smythe: land sale just is broken in that part
[10:31] Nebadon Izumi:
[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: i was able to rez this
[10:31] WhiteStar Magic: I saw that.. Amazing !
[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: but it requied the memory hack to do it
[10:31] Justin Clark-Casey: whitestar: ode 11.1 in 64 bit?
[10:31] Richardus Raymaker: search sound super
[10:31] Revolution Smythe: yeah
[10:31] WhiteStar Magic: JCC been hiding too much
[10:31] Revolution Smythe: nebadon and I messed with ODE 11.1
[10:31] Revolution Smythe: lol
[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: ya unfortuantly i found out yesterday that .net is primarily 32 bit
[10:31] Revolution Smythe: JCC has
[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: that even in X64
[10:31] Justin Clark-Casey: that's why I ask what the news is :)
[10:32] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, cool object.
[10:32] Nebadon Izumi: it has the same memory limits that x86 has
[10:32] Nebadon Izumi: so im not sure x64 ODE is going to give us much in terms of gains
[10:32] WhiteStar Magic: WOW64 may resolve that issue though if it's addressed
[10:32] Frank Northmead is Online
[10:32] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: that sounds very odd. You have links?
[10:32] OtakuMegane Desu: Mmm
[10:32] Nebadon Izumi: ya i'll have to find them again justin
[10:32] Revolution Smythe: JCC: it requires a slightly modified ODE library to work well
[10:32] OtakuMegane Desu: We need something to improve though
[10:32] Nebadon Izumi: i didnt bookmark any of them
[10:32] Nebadon Izumi: i can dig em up again though
[10:32] Nebadon Izumi: its pretty fresh in my mind what i was searching for at the time
[10:33] Nebadon Izumi: it was on the microsoft site though some where
[10:33] Nebadon Izumi: msdn i think
[10:33] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: don't worry too much, but I would be interested to see.
[10:33] Richardus Raymaker: nebadon, same with linux ?
[10:33] Justin Clark-Casey: I can always look for myself
[10:33] Nebadon Izumi: no
[10:33] Nebadon Izumi: only microsoft
[10:33] Nebadon Izumi: doesnt apply to mono
[10:33] OtakuMegane Desu: Lol
[10:33] Nebadon Izumi: which has native x64 support
[10:33] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: so they got ode compiling to 64 bit for windows?
[10:33] Nebadon Izumi: yea we did some testing
[10:33] WhiteStar Magic whispers: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa384274.aspx
[10:33] WhiteStar Magic: oops
[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats one of the pages i was looking at
[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: for sure
[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: visual studio itself is 32 bit only
[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: too
[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: they have not made much effort to embrace 64 bit fully
[10:34] WhiteStar Magic: http://stevenharman.net/blog/archive/2008/04/29/hacking-visual-studio-to-use-more-than-2gigabytes-of-memory.aspx
[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: pretty lame
[10:34] WhiteStar Magic: that one is tricky as it changed afterwards
[10:35] Richardus Raymaker: its very strange 64bit is still so bad supported
[10:35] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats the hack to enable more memory for OpenSim.32bitlauncher.exe
[10:35] Nebadon Izumi: ya most of microsofts effors have been to optimize x86 apps to run in x64
[10:35] Nebadon Izumi: not native x64
[10:35] Nebadon Izumi: they are still milking it for all its worth i guess
[10:36] Richardus Raymaker: sound like waste of resources and time
[10:36] Nebadon Izumi: well x64 is not widely adopted on desktops yet
[10:36] Justin Clark-Casey: this all looks pretty marginal, tbh
[10:36] OtakuMegane Desu: Could be worse. x64 could be getting all the glorious attenion IPv6 is . :P
[10:36] Nebadon Izumi: its still less than 10% of the entire desktop world
[10:36] Nebadon Izumi: alot of people have x64 hardware
[10:36] Nebadon Izumi: but run x86 OS
[10:36] Andrew Hellershanks: yup
[10:36] Revolution Smythe: yup
[10:36] Teravus Ousley: so instead of IPv6 it's a bit like DNSSec?
[10:37] Andrew Hellershanks: Some apps just aren't available for 64-bit yet and I don't want to have to mix 32-bit and 64-bit stuff on one machine.
[10:37] Revolution Smythe: hey BlueWall
[10:37] Nebadon Izumi: ya microsoft is playing it safe
[10:37] Nebadon Izumi: making sure all the old apps work first
[10:37] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I'm putting off the switch to 64 bit myself
[10:37] Nebadon Izumi: so it gives people a reason to move up
[10:37] Richardus Raymaker: hi bleu
[10:37] Richardus Raymaker: blue
[10:37] BlueWall Slade: Hey
[10:37] Justin Clark-Casey: hi bluewall
[10:37] Nebadon Izumi: no one wants to see everything abandoned either
[10:37] Nebadon Izumi: hey Bluewall
[10:38] BlueWall Slade: Hello
[10:38] Teravus Ousley has planted himself
[10:38] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: did you get info on freeswitch?
[10:38] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe... wait for MS to come out with an OS that only works in 64-bit on a 64-bit machine.
[10:38] Richardus Raymaker: as long you only have 3GB memory, you can use x86
[10:38] Andrew Hellershanks grins
[10:38] Nebadon Izumi: ya really OpenSim should not need 4gb
[10:38] OtakuMegane Desu: MS doesn't think that far ahead. Or that daring.
[10:38] Nebadon Izumi: its absurd that it does
[10:39] WhiteStar Magic: 32Bit will only handle 3GB but RAM is getting cheaper and hardware is supporting more, so it's justa matter of time
[10:39] Nebadon Izumi: we need to take some of the focus off microsoft and mono and put it back on opensim optimization
[10:39] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: well, they can't even let windowsxp go :)
[10:39] Teravus Ousley: I bet if we eliminted textures from opensim's handling.. it'll go way down.
[10:39] Revolution Smythe: lol Neb
[10:39] Nebadon Izumi: we can certainly do a better job in terms of managing what memory we use
[10:39] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[10:39] Richardus Raymaker: win7 is pushing the 64bit market, im sure
[10:39] Teravus Ousley: eliminated
[10:39] Revolution Smythe: Teravus: lol
[10:39] Nebadon Izumi: ya we just need to phase out textures and avatars
[10:39] Nebadon Izumi: and were golden
[10:39] Justin Clark-Casey: if we ever get to a point where textures are fetched by http from some source other than opensim....
[10:39] Revolution Smythe: and prims while we are at it
[10:39] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[10:40] WhiteStar Magic: script s too !
[10:40] Teravus Ousley: That's going live on AGNI actually this week.
[10:40] Nebadon Izumi: ya we dont need no stinkin prims
[10:40] WhiteStar Magic: They are Just as nasty as teh rest
[10:40] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, they tried to at first until Vista became such a disaster. I was told by staff at a local Best Buy shop that MS pulled up a truck to the store with a shredder in it to destory all XP disks after Vista was released.
[10:40] OtakuMegane Desu: Nothing wrong with an army of Ruths. We can take screenshots and make Youtube videos threatening to invade SL
[10:40] Teravus Ousley: http texture fetch.
[10:40] Nebadon Izumi: ah cool ya that would probably improve overhead
[10:40] Dave Coyle is Online
[10:40] Nebadon Izumi: reduce UDP usage
[10:40] Nebadon Izumi: as much as possible
[10:40] Nebadon Izumi: memory and cpu probably go down a bunch
[10:40] Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: yeah, in principle you could have another process handling all the texture fetch.....
[10:40] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: well, you always want to use memory for caching
[10:40] Revolution Smythe: just like with inventory maybe in the longer run
[10:41] Dahlia Trimble: hi :)
[10:41] BlueWall Slade: they will support XP until 2020
[10:41] Nebadon Izumi: ya well unessacary memory usage
[10:41] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: ha
[10:41] Revolution Smythe: hey Dahlia
[10:41] Nebadon Izumi: we bloat up so fast and never let go
[10:41] Teravus Ousley: less packets
[10:41] OtakuMegane Desu: Yes. HTTP good.
[10:41] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: probably any memory usage is dwarfed by texture requirements, except when we have a leak
[10:41] Nebadon Izumi: ya well UDP gets pretty nasty on CPU anyway im not sure about memory
[10:41] Nebadon Izumi: less cpu = less GC
[10:41] Justin Clark-Casey: possibly playing with the asset cache settings could help?
[10:41] Andrew Hellershanks: Have most of the leaks in OS been plugged?
[10:42] Revolution Smythe: i'll have to go throw OS through a memory profiler again
[10:42] Justin Clark-Casey: I know some of the caches do age their assets after a while
[10:42] OtakuMegane Desu: I haven't seen any significant leaks in a good while
[10:42] Nebadon Izumi: ya we have experimented with cache age
[10:42] Nebadon Izumi: improvements were minimal to nothing
[10:42] Dahlia Trimble: I see a CPU loak
[10:42] Andrew Hellershanks: Otaku, good to know
[10:42] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: there are lots ofvariable
[10:42] Justin Clark-Casey: variables
[10:42] Penny Lane: Sims should handle only the data it needs for the simulation / physics. Clients should get everything except simulation / physics output from somewhere else, implemented on a load-balanced server pool. It's only the simulation that isn't easily distributed.
[10:42] Justin Clark-Casey: hi dahlia
[10:42] BlueWall Slade: I see pretty good CPU useage, unless there is a deadlock somewhere
[10:42] Nebadon Izumi: oh ya indeed
[10:42] danana dodonpa: eavnin
[10:42] BlueWall Slade: now & then it starts climbing until it is killed
[10:42] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[10:43] Nebadon Izumi: mostly its under heavy loads
[10:43] Richardus Raymaker: yes blue
[10:43] Nebadon Izumi: things go wonky
[10:43] Nebadon Izumi: and by heavy load in mean 20-30 people
[10:43] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: I agree
[10:43] BlueWall Slade: I see it, usually when people are messing with attachements
[10:43] Dahlia Trimble: its like it goes up a lottle for every avie that logs in and then logs out
[10:43] Nebadon Izumi: 30 people seems to be the upper end of what opensim can handle anymore
[10:43] OtakuMegane Desu: When we can use Mono 2.6 reliably again that'll help on that end anyway. Things ran better and with less memory before I had to drop back to 2.4.x
[10:43] BlueWall Slade: on / off / on
[10:43] Dahlia Trimble: *little
[10:43] Nebadon Izumi: even on 8 cores with 16gb ram
[10:43] Revolution Smythe: memory goes up for every av that logs in
[10:43] Nebadon Izumi: 30 people is the upper end
[10:43] Penny Lane waves at Justin
[10:43] Revolution Smythe: even if they log out
[10:43] Dahlia Trimble: I mean CPU
[10:43] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: hey penny
[10:43] Penny Lane: :-)
[10:44] Andrew Hellershanks: I seem to remember memory usage went up in the past when people were logging in and out to a given region
[10:44] Dahlia Trimble: I see it in my regions that get a lot of transient traffic
[10:44] Richardus Raymaker: yes, but it seems to give not all back to system
[10:44] Nebadon Izumi: ya mass logins / logouts create huge delays
[10:44] Justin Clark-Casey: revolution: have you been able to effectively profile opensim? last time I tried with the mono tools they just couldn't hgandle it
[10:44] Nebadon Izumi: hose up chat
[10:44] Nebadon Izumi: inventory too
[10:44] Nebadon Izumi: inventory is super nasty
[10:44] Dahlia Trimble: but CPU goes up and never goes down
[10:44] Nebadon Izumi: it could be related to logins
[10:44] Revolution Smythe: JCC: CPU profiler, yes Memory Profiler, not so much
[10:44] WhiteStar Magic: I see Mem & cpu float up & down depending on Region Traffic, seems to recover pretty well under Win 2k3
[10:44] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats what im saying Dahlia we bloat up but never bloat down
[10:44] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[10:45] Justin Clark-Casey: that might be the VM though - I'm not sure it has any incentive to release memory
[10:45] Andrew Hellershanks: In Linux I've used valgrind in the past to check for memory leaks. Not sure how it would work with running OS via mono.
[10:45] BlueWall Slade: I see it go down some, but not 100% back
[10:45] Revolution Smythe: yeah
[10:45] Nebadon Izumi: it is when it keeps going until it crashes Justin
[10:45] BlueWall Slade: the memory climbs though
[10:45] Nebadon Izumi: we see over 5gb memory being used
[10:45] Nebadon Izumi: for this region
[10:45] Nebadon Izumi: when no one is here
[10:45] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: there are some profiling tools with mono but it's difficult to use them
[10:45] Richardus Raymaker: ieep
[10:45] Nebadon Izumi: because of all the traffic it gets throughout the day
[10:45] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: then we might hafve a leak
[10:45] OtakuMegane Desu: If all opensim had to do was manage physics and simulation things would probably fly.
[10:46] Nebadon Izumi: eventualy just just splodes
[10:46] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[10:46] Nebadon Izumi: probabl leaky
[10:46] Justin Clark-Casey: it doesn't surprise me - some of our core code is horrible
[10:46] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[10:46] Justin Clark-Casey: and then all the region modules need to be disciplined to release stuff too
[10:46] Dahlia Trimble: yep it's a huge monolithic beast, forced that way by the protocol :(
[10:46] BlueWall Slade: I whsh we could look into the mono process and see the stats for the different modules
[10:46] Richardus Raymaker: holds opensim in a bucket filled with water and watch for bubbles
[10:46] WhiteStar Magic: LOL Richardus
[10:46] OtakuMegane Desu: Bubblies :D
[10:46] BlueWall Slade: hehe
[10:46] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: yeah - I was trying to introduce those maps we talked about on the ml this week but I've had to give up for now
[10:47] Dahlia Trimble: it'll drown :(
[10:47] Nebadon Izumi: right now the best performance though is on x64 linux i think
[10:47] Nebadon Izumi: though now with this memory hack we are testing on windows
[10:47] Justin Clark-Casey: it's doable but difficult
[10:47] Nebadon Izumi: that might not be tru anymore
[10:47] Dahlia Trimble: OSDMaps?
[10:47] Richardus Raymaker: hard to say, for me both seems to run fine
[10:47] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: effetively yes - I think it has to be maps of OSD in the end
[10:47] Nebadon Izumi: i have enabeld the memory hack on the OSgrid Windows plazas
[10:47] Dahlia Trimble: <3 OSDMaps :D
[10:47] Nebadon Izumi: Teravus and SeaPRior and Zaius Plaza
[10:47] BlueWall Slade: ohh, OSD maps
[10:48] Nebadon Izumi: all running on increased memory 4gb access
[10:48] Richardus Raymaker: zaius not get much traffic i guess
[10:48] BlueWall Slade: I put up a patch to fix a break in the XStats
[10:48] Nebadon Izumi: ya Zaius sees tons of Child Agents mostly
[10:48] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: yeah, they're okay but not optimized for that kind of usage. And region modules have to end up manipulating them directly rather than loading them into objects
[10:48] Richardus Raymaker: aha, thats good test to
[10:48] Richardus Raymaker: are ghost avatars fixt in 0.7 ? its getting broing to see them
[10:48] Dahlia Trimble: ya they're like a dictionary
[10:48] Nebadon Izumi: hmm thats not something i tested Rich
[10:49] Nebadon Izumi: my guess is probably not though
[10:49] OtakuMegane Desu: Kinda funny. A year ago Windows was the epicness and Linux/mono got all the problems with opensim.
[10:49] Richardus Raymaker: i get them sofar i see always from snoopy's regions
[10:49] Nebadon Izumi: i think for most people windows will yeild better performance
[10:49] Nebadon Izumi: for a meeting like this though its questionable
[10:49] Nebadon Izumi: x64 is almost needed
[10:49] Nebadon Izumi: because memory bloat is so great
[10:49] Justin Clark-Casey: but mono is cheeep ;)
[10:50] Richardus Raymaker: linux cheaper :)
[10:50] Andrew Hellershanks: yup
[10:50] BlueWall Slade: it runs really good for me, I do have to restart regions some. I can live with that
[10:50] Justin Clark-Casey: to be honest, I hear that quite a lot of commercial mmorpg servers have to be restarted regularly
[10:50] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats not suprising
[10:50] OtakuMegane Desu: Oh yeah
[10:50] Justin Clark-Casey: that's effectively a simpler solution than spending developer hours trying to track down leaks
[10:50] Nebadon Izumi: and they dont even do server side physics
[10:50] OtakuMegane Desu: MMOs get restarted all the time
[10:50] Nebadon Izumi: i dont know of anything that does server side physics other than SL and OpenSim
[10:50] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Post_Fixes) c7a2e1b: 2010-07-08 10:17:28 -0700 (Unix/Mono)
[10:50] Nebadon Izumi: in MMORPG land
[10:51] Dahlia Trimble: Justin, I added some OSDMap conversions in PrimitiveBaseShape.cs, take a peek there
[10:51] Nebadon Izumi: WOW is just massive loads
[10:51] BlueWall Slade: I wouldn't mind restarting 4x/day if I get to use my tools, lol
[10:51] Nebadon Izumi: insanley massive loads of people
[10:51] Teravus Ousley: are you saying the programming isn't perfect? OpenSimulator is perfect.. We should take it out of alpha and make it final version 60.. the last version that we release because it's perfect. no bugs, no restarts.. :D
[10:51] OtakuMegane Desu: Lol
[10:51] BlueWall Slade: Haaa
[10:51] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: I will sometime. I did get to the point where I could do the dynamic atributes stuff but I would need to go back and retest all my moap code - and I can't face that this time :)
[10:51] OtakuMegane Desu: The sad thing is, there are people who believe exactly that Teravus
[10:52] Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: ha ha
[10:52] OtakuMegane Desu: They've been quieter lately, but I'm sure they still lurk around
[10:52] Dahlia Trimble: PrimitiveBaseShape.ToOmvPrimitive()
[10:52] BlueWall Slade: did Adam get into the refactoring he was going to do, SOG or SOP ?
[10:53] Richardus Raymaker: silence bfore the stomr otaku
[10:53] Teravus Ousley feels well protected from tomatoes inside this nice plant pottery object
[10:53] BlueWall Slade: lol Ter
[10:53] WhiteStar Magic: LOL
[10:53] Nebadon Izumi: hehehe
[10:53] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: that's just a conversion of our base shape to the omv equivalent, right? (which I presume can then be serialized to OSD?)
[10:53] Dahlia Trimble: yep
[10:54] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: I don't believe so
[10:54] Andrew Hellershanks: Who works on viewer code that can tell me what viewers expect in terms of parameters in results of a search?
[10:54] Revolution Smythe: lol
[10:54] Dahlia Trimble: I think OSD is the base class for a OSDMap
[10:54] Revolution Smythe: Andrew libOmv did most of that if you look around
[10:54] Dahlia Trimble: the serialization is an added step
[10:54] Revolution Smythe: Dahlia: that would be correct
[10:54] Teravus Ousley: RE Viewer code: not me
[10:55] BlueWall Slade: there are some BSD friendly releases of the LLSD
[10:55] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: yes. I end up needing a way to serialize arbitrary OSD. It's all doable but it would restrict people to storing OSD and not arbitrary objects
[10:55] Nebadon Izumi: ya didnt LL fully rlease that code in several formats?
[10:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Revolution, It would help if someone can point out what part I need to look at. IIRC, libomv is another big code base.
[10:56] Dahlia Trimble: ya I dont know any serialization that can do arbitrary objects without needing some modification
[10:56] Revolution Smythe: Andrew: if you would say which parts, i could tell you more
[10:56] BlueWall Slade: here is is: http://hg.secondlife.com/llsd
[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: nice
[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: thanks
[10:56] Dahlia Trimble: cept maybe JSON and python
[10:56] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: I do have an implementation but it's too hairy to convert moap to use it. And then retest everything
[10:56] Justin Clark-Casey: well, er, an untested implementation
[10:56] Justin Clark-Casey: and uncompiled. Hm