HG Meeting 2009/02/06

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Summary

We met in secondlife://ucigrid04.nacs.uci.edu:9007/ (Gateway 7000). 16 people showed up inworld, and a few more on the IRC channel. Here are the main interesting points that came out of this conversation, as ways to address the current security holes related to inventory in the hypergrid due to viewer limitations:

  • Develop a Web interface for the inventory server, and a region module for the regions, so that users can interact directly with the inventory server and make things happen in the arbitrary regions where they are (rezzing objects, etc)
  • Develop a local opensim proxy that bridges between the viewer and the inventory server

Additionally, a third point emerged for moving beyond the current viewer:

  • Develop a non-GUI console client for prototyping the ideal protocol between clients, regions, and the several other servers. This can become a reference protocol implementation that GUI viewers can follow.

All of these are actionable with code, the preferred process in OpenSim.

Full Transcript

<uci1> 8 avies, yoohoo! - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> :) - Koffeekid.Smalls @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> it's early for most of you :/ - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> not so early. it's already 10am - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> Crista, what kind of box is this region hosted on? Just curious. - Dave.Coyle @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> It's a linux machine, 4G of RAM, dual core - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> it's running both this region and Gateway 3000 - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> bandwith ? - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> infinite bandwidth - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> :-) - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> speed i mean - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> infinite speed also :-) - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> that's help - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> as fast as it gets in universities with fast connections - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> I have no idea of the exact numbers, but it's fast - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> i guess your students are paddling like mad ;) - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> the university central computing services know all of my machines very well... - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> they are frequently the top talkers of the entire campus - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

-->| justincc (n=justincc@80.175.122.121) has joined #opensim-gateway7000

<uci1> hi justincc - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<justincc> hey folks

<uci1> morning justin - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> greets - BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 imagine Diva with a Whip asking her students to paddle quicker - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> or maybe morning isnt quite the word you'd use - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> hi justin :) date to come ? - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> *dare - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> Good morning Justin - Frank.Northmead @208.109.209.61:8002 of Gateway 7000

<justincc> I am here - though probably only irc

<uci1> for ppl in the IRC channel, http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Image:Teleport.jpg - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> I think you need to download that and zoom in - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<justincc> man this irc relay has got very chatty

<uci1> so let's start this - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> I already took lots of pictures, and this hasn't crashed yet :-) - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> goal 1 has been accomplished :-) - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> <Gateway 7000> Junta.Kohime @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 has arrived

<uci1> you mean we don't have a Picture Committee? ;) - Dave.Coyle @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> hehehe - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> huho... - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> don't start that thread ;) - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> i'll be good. - Dave.Coyle @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> well, that's a good brigde to point number 2 - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> I have the benefit of not having participated in the AWG meetings, so I'm fresh without history - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> there's a lot of things we need to decide wrt interoperability, and they involve not just opensim but the viewer also; I'm not entirely sure what the right process is. - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> clearly the actual viewer spec is a limitation - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> <Gateway 7000> Master.ScienceSim @island.sciencesim.com:8002 has arrived

<uci1> do you have any contact with the imprudence viewer team? - BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> i suggest to speak in generality and going down the road to reach an ideal viewer - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> whatever the viewer will be - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> <Gateway 7000> Master.ScienceSim @island.sciencesim.com:8002 has left

<uci1> Maybe a broad framework / wish list that OpenSim would like for viewer creators to try and tackle? - Orion.Pseudo @grid.pseudospace.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> that's a good idea, Orion - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> <Gateway 7000> Carlos.Roundel @94.23.14.204:8002 has arrived

<uci1> I see a lot of LL-viewer derivates, but none of them is focusing on what I think is most important here, which is interoperability - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> <Gateway 7000> adamante.rossini @94.23.14.204:8002 has arrived

<uci1> we really need viewer ppl involved if we are to make progress - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> most of the derivatives at least acknowledge opensim with grid support - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> sempuki is traveling - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<justincc> yes - perhaps worth an ask on sldev (providing that isn't way offtopic for that list)

<uci1> hi - Carlos.Roundel @94.23.14.204:8002 of Gateway 7000

-->| dahlia (n=dahlia@ip72-220-236-152.sd.sd.cox.net) has joined #opensim-gateway7000

<uci1> hi - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<dahlia> hi :)

<uci1> he asked me to take some notes for him - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> hi - Junta.Kohime @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> hi - adamante.rossini @94.23.14.204:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> sempuki is in Imprudenc, Sacha? - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> they are drafting they ownviewer atm - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> more or less an ideal viewer - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> crista, there is no lack of viewer development projects... are you suggesting another? or suggesting that we start to encourage "critical mass" in one? - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> Mic, whatever works, really - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> i know of at least four BSD clean room attempts going on - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<dahlia> 4?

<uci1> I think we need to make viewer writers more aware of their importance in the issue of interop - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> well, whatever the viewer will be, it should be open and modulabel - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> rex, 3di, dan miller, teravus and one more that might get interesting soon - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> hi dahlia :) - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> Orion.Pseudo @grid.pseudospace.net:8002 whispers shyly - With readable code! - Orion.Pseudo @grid.pseudospace.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> Crista: could the viewer problem be addressed by creating a proxy that accepts what you/opensim needs into what the SL dirivatives expect, then once it is all working, the proxy design could be used as a prototype/spec for a new opensim viewer that talks directly - Frank.Northmead @208.109.209.61:8002 of Gateway 7000

<dahlia> Hi Sacha :)

<uci1> http://imprudenceviewer.org/ - BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> Another good idea, Frank - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> on the proxy... we did that to test texture redirection off the simulator - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> it works... but its pretty slow - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> and the viewer shoumd not contains avatar defintion ! - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> when you have to pass updates through it - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<justincc> I believe jhurliman is currently taking the proxy approach.. is that what you're talking about?

<uci1> justincc: yes - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> yes, slow would be acceptable if it works - point being to be able to move forward with the design. - Frank.Northmead @208.109.209.61:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> the texture redirector was written by a different intel engineer - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<justincc> ah of course you would be - sorry, hard to see who is speaking in irc

<uci1> I like Frank's idea - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> another approach would be to focus on replacing the networking pieces of the SL viewer - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> my instinct is to jump to the client side now. - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> to get a "place to stand" - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> Mic, it's what rex tried to do - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> not really - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> it's a nogo - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<dahlia> how about implementing in libomv? that way some of the bsd clients could try it

<uci1> what we discussed with ryan etal in the fall was to replace the packet code with libomv - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> <Gateway 7000> John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 has arrived

<uci1> made it - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> morning jhurliman! - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> hi John - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> morning - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> hello - BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> hi - Dave.Coyle @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<justincc> Hi John

<uci1> wow, why does my name show up as @osgrid.org? i definitely did not come from osgrid - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> more gnomes :-) - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> i hypergridded from a local simian instance :-\ - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> i'm from irvine today :-) - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> oh joy - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> hehehe - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> lol - BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> btw... crista: when i went through the linked regions... i got the correct (@siciencsim label - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> a viewer shouldn't be restricted / tied to one rendering engine - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> it was the "URL in the search box" that seemed to makeadifference - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> and one type of avatar - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> i go from cyberlandia but i have ip and junta dns name - Carlos.Roundel @94.23.14.204:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> my instinct is to make a non-GUI viewer that simply does the protocol parts - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> sacha, if the focus is on interop.. do you really want to bite off the whole rendering piece? - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> Sacha, I know alot of Winlight haters that would love you for that! :) - Orion.Pseudo @grid.pseudospace.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> nope - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> same start region and same path - Carlos.Roundel @94.23.14.204:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> maybe that could serve as strawman for GUI viewers - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> that's not a bad approach - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> ++ - BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> focus on the protocols for now - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> could be the starting of a framework fro other devices too - BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> <Gateway 7000> Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 has arrived

<uci1> if we would do that, it would serve as the reference for the protocol, and it's relatively easy to do - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> I tend to like working code more than english text... - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> we noticed :-) - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> hehe :-) - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> <Gateway 7000> John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 has left

<uci1> do you think it a good idea to sumbit RFC's for this work? - BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 of Gateway 7000

<justincc> yes, working code really drive us (along with clear explanative text :)

<uci1> for that MMOX group? - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<justincc> just text on it's own doesn't seem to work very well in this context

<uci1> protocol, based on SL or we move away from them ? - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> to the IETF - BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> for methods to interop virtual worlds - BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 of Gateway 7000

<justincc> I personally doubt the whole area is mature enough yet to go to the IETF... not enough participants actually trying for an internet of virtual environments

<uci1> well, I'm not terribly worried about the IETF committee, but I guess we could when we have something working - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> I'd like to see it working first - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> ++ - BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> it might be helpful to not think of this as ONE big interop effort - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> hi dahlia - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> agreed Mic - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> hi :) - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<justincc> oh yes, hey dahlia :)

<uci1> some of the protocols aremore stable than others - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<FrankNichols> looks like I crashed - sigh...

<uci1> 12 avies! - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> asset retrieval... inventory... etc have close parallels in existing CDN systems - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<FrankNichols> chat is not coming through inworld now

<uci1> I see it - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> you're ok franck - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<FrankNichols> I am on IRC now.

<uci1> anyway,, let me jump to the part of the the concrete problem that I think is more urgent to fix - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> k - BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> cane evrybody zoom in on that seq diagram - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> webapge diva ? - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> rezzing... - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Image:Teleport.jpg - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> thx - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> <Gateway 7000> John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 has arrived

<uci1> that jpg is too small. ppl need to download it and use another tool to zoom in - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> don't click on the boxes! (i crashed) - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> you may want to turn the sun down here, too, it's too bright - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> anyway, that's the current TP sequence diagram - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> I'll listen and trust you ;) - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> the part that most worries me is that part I highlighted here, the inventory - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> the receiving region requests inventory to the inventory server - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> that totally does not scale for security reasons - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> which begs the obvious question... why does the simulator need inventory? - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> if we're talking about fixing things on the client + server, simulators don't need any awareness of inventory at all, correct? - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> yep - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<justincc> yes, inventory should probably flow client-side

<uci1> I have no idea why LL did this - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> does anyone know why? - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<justincc> easier security?

<uci1> one connection to manage - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> because the simulators are the gateways to the grid - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> <Gateway 7000> Orion.Pseudo @grid.pseudospace.net:8002 has left

<uci1> sl like to proxy everything through the region - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> one place to enforce security - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> they act as the guardians at the edge - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> well, yeah. ok. but this doesn't work in open systems - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> no it doesn't - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> the viewer should do that - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<justincc> +1

<uci1> for those of you who haven been in AGW meetings. has this been mentioned at all? - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> <Gateway 7000> Orion.Pseudo @grid.pseudospace.net:8002 has arrived

<uci1> I'm just curious, really. - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> i don't think you're allowed to talk about those kinds of things at AWG meetings - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> inventory solutions arent usually discussed in AWG :/ - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> cos this seems so obviousely broken - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> <Gateway 7000> BlueWall.Slade_EXTERNAL @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 has arrived

<justincc> not allowed to talk about them??

<uci1> sarcasm - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<justincc> ahhhh, sarcasm :)

<uci1> actually not sarcasm. the last few times i tried to bring up something like that it was "off-topic" - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> are you guys telling me that this has never been talked about in those meetings, ever?! - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<justincc> well, that, quite frankly, is dumb

<uci1> i really need the "roll my eyes" animation that my daughters use with me - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> some sarcasm ;) - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> <Gateway 7000> BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 has left

<uci1> <Gateway 7000> BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 has arrived

<uci1> ok, well, nevermind. - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> this is broken, and we need to fix it - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> would would happen itf the inventory wasn't sent? - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> and for that we need a viewer that will fix it - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> crista, there are anumber of derivative changes that need to happen - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<ImazeR> sorry - are you talking about now to move assets server to client side?

<uci1> anyways, does it make sense to divide up the work into categories? client<->inventory server communication would be a category, and the larger problem of identity would be another - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> yes, that would make sense - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> I think there are many different problems to solve - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> I just happen to be more worried about this one - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> ImazeR: no, just talking about having the client speak directly with inventory server and cut the sim out of the loop - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> <Gateway 7000> BlueWall.Slade_EXTERNAL @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 has left

<uci1> so maybe we can start a wiki page listing all the differetn problems that need to be solved - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> i have a meeting with the open metaverse foundation in 30 minutes... they are starting an effort to consolidate standards proposals and tech ideas for virtual worlds in a single place - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> that will be categorized in some manner - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> John, we could insert a proxy to connect to the inventory as a temp bandaid until it is debugged, then "encourage" the client programmers to add that. - Frank.Northmead @208.109.209.61:8002 of Gateway 7000

<justincc> Crista: a listing page sounds like a good idea

<uci1> ok, one less document to write :-) - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> here's another "ugly" idea... - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> Frank: definitely. that's how we tested cable beach assets - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> use a web interface for intenvetory mgmt for now - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> with a region module that has an interface for rez'zing objects - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> <Gateway 7000> BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 has left

<uci1> with a secure token - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> but can't the region cheat? - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> and how would the client be able to use the inventory then? - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> well.. maybe... that's what i'm trying to build right now... :-) - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> <Gateway 7000> BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 has arrived

<uci1> for inventory (for an ugly interface remember)you use a web browser to request rezing into a particular region - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> yeah, anything involving the region is cheatable - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> oh I see - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> inverting the control - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> yeah, possible - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> you can give the region module a token that allows it to retrieve an asset - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> one time only - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> to rez it - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> (or fora limited time) - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> not if the client has to communicate a token to the sim for each action. but that might require more protocol glue than we have the ability to play with (easily) - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> could the inventory be filtered before it's sent to the foreign region? like worn avatar accessories only? - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> as i said... this is an ugly proof of concept (mroe to findout what breaks) - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> bandwith cost ? - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> or assets that are deemed open? - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> Dahlia, there is no "deeming" - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> not unless we change the viewer - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> expliticly marked asopen - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> or do it through the web, like Mic says - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> or add metadata in the description or something - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> I think those are all great hack ideas for how to deal with this broken LL architecture - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> i recommend a web service interface for the service... but you need to *eventually* simplify the UI - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> we should write them down - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> they are all kinda hackish :/ - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> and at the same time, start thinking of an architecture that's not broken. Thinking=doing - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> but if we focus on the protocols... i don't mind an ugly ui - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> doing --> thinking - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> it goes both ways for me :-) - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> so maybe a console client would be fun - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> i don't get the concept (not englis spoken) - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> which concept? - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> but rezing object on a sim cost bandwith - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> what you said - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> what you said Mic - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> it's an external interfcae sacha - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> (probably because i'm still tyring to figure it out myself :-) - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> bascially... - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> some kind of proxy ? - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> <Gateway 7000> Elwe.Ewing @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 has arrived

<uci1> so, something that would work like libomv TestClient / NPC's ? - BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> one thing to take in account : bandwith issue - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> create a region module that has an interface that takes a request to rez an asset - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> <Gateway 7000> lila.iwish @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 has arrived

<uci1> and a "one time" credential - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> the user has a web interface to inventory - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> requests the rezzing... gives permission to the specific sim... which creates the credential the sim uses to get the asset - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> yeah, I can totally see that Mic. That would allow us to continue to use the LL viewer until a better one comes along - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> with a web browser on the side... but yes - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> and you couldstill have your "public" inventory through the existing services - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> but that would probebly mean that we would need to login to the inventory server too - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> yes - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> Q: how will it work when you want to get rezzed item on a foreign sim ? - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> <Gateway 7000> Sean Heavy has arrived

<uci1> another approach that i've been working on is using a simulator as a client - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> again... the advatnage of the linden approach is that you get one credenttial for your interactions - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> Sacha, it works because you contact the inventory server from the web and yo utell the inventory server where yo uwant your object rezzed - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> multiple services mean coordination ofidentity - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> if a local sim becomes the interface your client logs into, you can show whatever inventory you want that is implemented with whatever inventory protocol you design - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> ok - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> yeah. ok. well we should try something like this. - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> but at the same time prototype a viewer-side protocol that does the right thing - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> (I think it's the right thing) - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> wow 16 avies! - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> I wonder if a web interface may be better than the client UI for more purposes.. land, groups, estate management.. - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> more avi than the average sim in sl ;) - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> dadlia: there's a lot of potential in web interfaces - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> dahlia, you can probably guess my opinion on that :-) - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> lol - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> I have a web interface controlling that traffix simulation - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> @Sacha - With none of the bots! :D - Orion.Pseudo @grid.pseudospace.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> ajax chat :) - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> that was the inspiration... - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> it's a way of doing what the viewer doesn't do - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 has used mibbet in the sl client a few times - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> you can think of it as a back door into the simulator - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> but its really a way to extend the interfaces - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> yep - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> with forms and all - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> except that it's quite painfull to write those html pages... :-) - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> I did bring it up for group management once but the idea didnt catch on :/ - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> ok, so two threads are clearly emeerging: - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> 1) Extend the viewer with web interfaces to do the right things that the viewer doesn't do - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> in term of protocl, i guess the system will send tall the data to the viewer during he tp process - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> 2) prototype a client-side that does the right thing - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> sacha: that's not the problem - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> the problem is that the "system" sends the data to random regions - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> should the proto based on SL message or should we start to work on our own protocl - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> so, another question, probablly for justincc - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> I heard that there's something in the viewer that tries to do the right thing - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> that is, use a CAP for inventory access - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> what's the story there? - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> how about just don't rez anything unless it's full perm? - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<justincc> Basically, some time ago we tried to implement CAPS because Linden Labs started to implement it

<justincc> I mean, for inventory fetch. However, it started to break

<uci1> does LL use that internally? - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<justincc> When I went to the Linden Grid to get some information on the protocol, I found that they had disabled it and gone back to UDP on the regions I visited

<justincc> so I disabled ours in favour of the UDP implementation and it's been like that ever since - afaik LL are still using UDP too

<uci1> duh - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> is anyone here from Linden Lab? - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> nope - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> guess not - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> i'm not Whump in disguish - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> I thought whump was mentioning some involvement - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> oh well, so I guess it's fair to assume that the viewer is not gonna change anytime soon - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> he did say he would be studying hypergrid - BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> probably not the LL "official" one - BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> alright. - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> the three approaches of 1) using a web interface in the viewer, 2) writing a new console client for protocol design, 3) using a local simulator as a frontend, all seem like good approaches - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> well, let's wrap up this workshop in a proper way, so that we have action items - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> yey, John, you read my mind :-) - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> i'm going to talk to the OMF right now about setting up a proper place for proposal documentation - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> ok - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> <Gateway 7000> lila.iwish @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 has left

<uci1> john, would it make sense to use libomv for 2)? - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> that's a good question... - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> or do we need to go belowe that? - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> crista, i can't commit to a timeline for #1... but if someone wants to help, we can at least move it forward - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> it gives us the headstart of having a complete client implementation that we can extend on. maybe branching libomv for experimental additions - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> Mic thanks for volunteering!!! - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> i can try to help mic - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> thanks... send me an email (cmickeyb@gmail.com) and i'll give you some info on what i currently have - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> so that means that I should probably also change the current hypergrid implementation - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> so that it doens't fetch invwentory just like that - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> how about just adding a switch to turn it off? - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> make a switch for now diva :) - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> ok - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> make a switch - Carlos.Roundel @94.23.14.204:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> Crista: we should spend some time at some point documenting hypergrid at the protocol level and thinking about what it would look like in a partial trust or untrusted scenario - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> That would work for me as well. I kind of like letting hypergridders take from my freebie library :) - Orion.Pseudo @grid.pseudospace.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> ok john. btw did that TP work? - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> i'm here! - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> from simiam? - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> yes - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> ya people are starting to build distribution on top of hypergrid already - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> OMG! That's soo cool! - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> if you checkout the latest simian from SVN, pull up the map and TP to the region just to the right you end up in UCI Welcome - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> that's awesome. - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> with inventory? ;) - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> ok, well this seq diagram is a good beginning - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> no avatar appearance, no attachments, no home assets or inventory. but i have a body and a name - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> it doesn't have the hg_user part, I'll add it - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> crista: the only thing i worry about is that using a sequence diagram of code can sometimes mask what is happening over the wire - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> I think we need both - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> yes - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> sometimes you want details, other time you want abstractions - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> gotta run, take care everyone - John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> bye john - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> by john - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> laterz jhurliman :) - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> I'm going to paste this meeting in w wiki page somewhere - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> <Gateway 7000> John.Hurliman @osgrid.org:8002 has left

<uci1> excellent - Koffeekid.Smalls @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> and make some sort of summary - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<justincc> bye

<uci1> it would be good to have a discuss section where we can capture thoughts - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> yes - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> thanks - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> Good meeting, looking forward to progress. I have to run also, thanks for hosting this Crista. - Frank.Northmead @208.109.209.61:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> thanks everyone - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

-->| AlexWelch (n=alex@194-125-dsl.ipact.nl) has joined #opensim-gateway7000

<uci1> I can't believe this sim didn't crash! - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> thanks crista - Carlos.Roundel @94.23.14.204:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> meh - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<justincc> yeah, miracle on UCI street :)

<uci1> why ? - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> I need to go too, but I'll leave the IRC open so I can see the log. Bye all :) - Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> you must have good sysAdmins! :) - Sean Heavy of Gateway 7000

<uci1> well 16 avies AND an IRC bridge - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> hey Sean! Yes! - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> <Gateway 7000> Frank.Northmead @208.109.209.61:8002 has left

<uci1> <Gateway 7000> Dahlia.Trimble @osgrid.org:8002 has left

<uci1> ciao a tutti - Carlos.Roundel @94.23.14.204:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> :)) - Carlos.Roundel @94.23.14.204:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> meeting over ? - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> yes. - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> have a nice day All - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> bye everyone. - Dave.Coyle @osgrid.org:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> (I hate long meetings too, along with committees :-) - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> ciao elwe - Carlos.Roundel @94.23.14.204:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> ciao Carlos :) - Elwe.Ewing @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> <Gateway 7000> Dave.Coyle @osgrid.org:8002 has left

<uci1> yikes! what just happened> - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<justincc> yes - always good to discipline to finish on time

<uci1> that was odd - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> yeah - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> quando ci si scollega di botto di solito crasha la sim - Carlos.Roundel @94.23.14.204:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> i can change water height - Junta.Kohime @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> già che ero qui volevo guardarmi attorno ;) - Elwe.Ewing @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> Junta, don't do it :-) - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> why is it possible - Junta.Kohime @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> this is all unprotected - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> so be careful - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> also other parameters - Junta.Kohime @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> sure, i turn it back to its default value - Junta.Kohime @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> ok. I don't have permissions here - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> I'm trusting people's common sense :-) - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> :) - Elwe.Ewing @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> crista, talk to you soon! - Mic Bowman of Gateway 7000

<uci1> ok, tchau everyone - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> <Gateway 7000> Mic Bowman has left

<uci1> crista, a question - Junta.Kohime @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> crista - Carlos.Roundel @94.23.14.204:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> c ya - Elwe.Ewing @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> Thanks everyone! - BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> one question - Carlos.Roundel @94.23.14.204:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> is it possible to ban a region to don't let people to come from there? - Junta.Kohime @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

<justincc> nice meeting Crista, see you later ;)

<uci1> bye justincc - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> crista is question asket from more land owners - Carlos.Roundel @94.23.14.204:8002 of Gateway 7000

<--| justincc has left #opensim-gateway7000 ("Leaving")

<uci1> I think protection in the HG are the same as in non-HG - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> i meant - Junta.Kohime @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> if i have the teleport address - Junta.Kohime @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> ok, folks, I need to upgrade the UGAIM here and find out what's wrong with the asset server... - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> i can tp me in every grid/land - Junta.Kohime @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> means restart in few minuts ;) - sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> that's right - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> let's move all HG questions elsewhere - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> <Gateway 7000> Sean Heavy has left

<uci1> where? - Junta.Kohime @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> #opensim, I guess - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> ok - Junta.Kohime @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> <Gateway 7000> sacha.Magne @grid.k-grid.com:8002 has left

<uci1> bye crista - Junta.Kohime @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> bye! - Crista Lopes of Gateway 7000

<uci1> <Gateway 7000> Orion.Pseudo @grid.pseudospace.net:8002 has left

<uci1> <Gateway 7000> Crista Lopes has left

<uci1> <Gateway 7000> Junta.Kohime @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 has left

<uci1> vabbe ci resta il dubbio - Carlos.Roundel @94.23.14.204:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> :) - Carlos.Roundel @94.23.14.204:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> torniamo - Carlos.Roundel @94.23.14.204:8002 of Gateway 7000

|<-- AlexWelch has left irc.freenode.net ()

<uci1> a casa - Carlos.Roundel @94.23.14.204:8002 of Gateway 7000

<uci1> lol... certo - Elwe.Ewing @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

<diva> ok, that was stupid. I logged out without copying the caht history

<uci1> <Gateway 7000> Carlos.Roundel @94.23.14.204:8002 has left

<diva> does anyone have the chat history?

<diva> crap!

<FrankNichols> diva, my IRC channel was up the whole time, I can copy that.

<diva> ah, thanks FrankNIchols. oh I guess mine too :-) duh

<diva> (don't mind me, I just had a long trip yestreday...)

<uci1> <Gateway 7000> BlueWall.Slade @ascent.bluewallgroup.com:8102 has left

<diva> oh but wait

<FrankNichols> I normally have chat logging on also, but I dont know if it works in hippo - let me check.

<diva> Frank, please do it

<diva> my bufffer is not long enough

<diva> Frank, can you please send it to lopes@ics.uci.edu

<FrankNichols> grr. my bad, my buffer is only about 1/2 of it. Let me check my chat logs.

<diva> dahlia: ping

<uci1> <Gateway 7000> adamante.rossini @94.23.14.204:8002 has left

<diva> ckrinke: ping

<diva> do you guys have non-dumb ICR clients that have this whole conversation?

<uci1> http://slurl.com/secondlife/Born%20To%20Learn/130/215/24 - Elwe.Ewing @grid.cyberlandia.net:8002 of Gateway 7000

<dahlia> I have it back to 10:08

<diva> that's good enough, better than nothing

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