[Opensim-users] Announcement of inventory tool (MyInventory), mostly of interest to grid operators/grid nauts

Fri Nov 16 14:22:16 UTC 2012

From: opensim-users-bounces at lists.berlios.de
[mailto:opensim-users-bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Snowcrash Short
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 8:48 AM
To: opensim-users at lists.berlios.de
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Announcement of inventory tool (MyInventory),
mostly of interest to grid operators/grid nauts

I think that giving a everybody a feel for what the tool is really about,
prior to going open source is an excellent idea.

I think this would be beneficial for all. The community could help identify
issues before they were "let loose in the wild", as I have said repeatedly,
MyInventory is not intended to be a tool for ripping assets, on the other
hand I am of the firm conviction that the end-user has far too little
control of his or her own inventory, and that access to content is one of
two major obstacles preventing users from adopting opensim on a wider scale.

best regards

Snowcrash

I don't expect to change your mind on this but I really don't understand the
"I am of the firm conviction that the end-user has far too little control of
his or her own inventory" comment. If I have an item in inventory I have all
the rights that are needed to be conveyed.  It gives me the "right" to use
the item on the grid where the inventory resides.  I am beholden to the grid
operator for backup and maintenance of that item so it remains useable but
again that's effectively the contract I enter into when I access a grid.
So no users rights are violated here at all.  If you imply that you have the
right to move it off the grid I'd assert that *may* be true but if so it's
because you have a separate license that allows that (and presumably
received the content via an external mechanism).

I have to admit, one aspect of all this does make me smile a bit.  You can
make many of the same arguments made against SnowCrash's application about
HyperGrid itself.  I argued unsuccessfully obviously when it was introduced
that it didn't belong in core, was a research project, and that the security
and IP issues weren't sufficiently thought through.  That didn't stop it and
so, IMO,  we have the perception that OpenSim is unfriendly to content
creators.  It's the reason I will never place my content on anything but a
walled garden grid and specifically those that have considered the
maintenance and security ramifications of running one.   And that includes
content I choose to distribute for free.

This problem, whether in the form of a copying tool or HyperGrid itself,
will continue to persist until the community at large solves the problem of
cross grid IP rights.  And the current basic permissions system we have
today is just simply not adequate (it's barely adequate for a standalone
grid, let alone anything beyond that).  Frankly OpenSim is barely adequate
for a standalone grid.  So again, trying to build large scale distributed
systems with it falls squarely in the "research" category.  Interesting work
but not yet what I would call the stable basis for someone using it for a
product,

Mike

On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 2:25 PM, Fleep Tuque <fleep513 at gmail.com> wrote:

I wanted to throw one other thought out there before I head off for a Friday
full of meetings.

A few months ago, I made a blog post encouraging Second Life users to move
beyond that platform if they wished to see the Metaverse we imagined become
a reality.  I suggested exploring Opensim as a first step in that process,
in part because it's an easy transition from SL to Opensim due to their
similarities, but also because in my view, the Opensim community is far more
forward thinking and dedicated to the Metaverse concept and ideal than
Linden Lab probably ever was, and certainly more than Linden Lab is now
(which is to say, not at all!).  I won't repeat the post, but feel free to
read it if you're interested:

http://www.fleeptuque.com/blog/2012/08/why-anyone-who-cares-about-the-metave
rse-needs-to-move-beyond-second-life-now-not-later/

I was shocked, flabbergasted really, by the huge response to that post.  I
just don't see 100+ comments on my blog posts very often, and while many of
them were nostalgic about the early years of SL, if you were to read through
those comments, you would see the terrible impression that many Second Life
users have about Opensim all boils down to perceived (and real) content
theft.  In the US, they talk about large entitlements being the "third rail"
of politics - meaning the topic is electric and any politician who goes near
it is likely to be killed.  Copyright/IP and exporting content to other
grids is the "third rail" of Opensim.  The mere mention of the topic
generates enormous amounts of passion on every side of the issue.

Nevertheless, these are the hard problems that innovators and pioneers must
solve.  If it were easy, anyone could do it and we'd already be further
along down the Metaverse path than we are.  But it isn't easy, it's
complicated, and fraught with not only legal concerns, but ethical and moral
ones too.  The only way to move forward is to try new things, to make best
efforts to address as many sides of the issue as possible, and to keep the
channels of communication and dialogue open.  Demonizing those on any side
of the issue is likely to get us no where and only furthers the perception
that the problems are unsolvable.

>From my view, Snowcrash has identified a legitimate area where Opensim needs
more development, more eyes on the problem, and more efforts to achieve
workable solutions.  I don't know that the tool he has designed is the best
solution, but I do appreciate that he has asked for feedback, I do
appreciate the commitment to open source his attempt at a solution, and I
definitely would hate to see him killed on sight for having the gumption to
try to approach the third rail. Someone needs to!   

I might suggest, Snowcrash, that when you're ready, perhaps you could
release the tool in a limited pilot phase first and allow some of the
developers and end users here in the community to test it, see how it
functions, and give you additional feedback before you release it more
widely or open the source.  It isn't just hysteria or knee-jerk reaction on
the part of those with concern, many of us have been fighting the perception
that Opensim is all about content theft for years, and in part because there
HAS been a lot of theft, and it IS a tricky problem to solve.

I'd like to think the community has the capacity to find a good way forward,
even if we can't solve every problem immediately or with a single tool.
Still, a step forward is a step forward, and I'd be happy to volunteer as a
pilot tester if you're open to that idea.

Sincerely,

- Chris/Fleep

Chris M. Collins (SL/OS: Fleep Tuque)

Center for Simulations & Virtual Environments Research (UCSIM)

UCIT Instructional & Research Computing

University of Cincinnati

406A Zimmer Hall

315 College Drive

PO BOX 210088

Cincinnati, OH 45221-0088

chris.collins at uc.edu

(513) 556-3018 <tel:%28513%29%20556-3018> 

http://ucsim.uc.edu

On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 6:56 AM, Marcus Llewellyn
<marcus.llewellyn at gmail.com> wrote:

On 11/16/2012 12:56 AM, Snowcrash Short wrote:

Users have right too, you know?  

Absolutely. Believe me, I'm a huge supporter of user's rights. These include
things like (as they're known in the U.S.) fair use and first sale
doctrines. But I ask you not to forget forget that the ability to exercise
copyright or enter into a contract is *also* a user's right.  This isn't a
"Them against Us" issue. It's an _ALL of us_ issue. Fighting for one set of
rights while disregarding or undermining other rights is not a tenable
position.

I've would adore it if someone were to step up and pull people together into
finally wrangling a framework that allows for people like Fleep to share her
creations freely across virtual worlds in a user friendly format, while also
allowing commercial creators to have a reasonable expectation of the
preservation of their licenses and copyrights. That should be the real
project here. There's too many missing pieces at the moment. Getting an
export flag implemented on the server and in viewers, although an imperfect
solution, would be an excellent way to get the ball rolling.

Any other action, I think, will tend to be perceived as a, "I want what I
want, and I want it now, damn the consequences," response to the community,
whether or not that perception is warranted.

Marcus

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
Opensim-users at lists.berlios.de
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
Opensim-users at lists.berlios.de
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://opensimulator.org/pipermail/opensim-users/attachments/20121116/8b8929b0/attachment.html>