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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> opensim-users-bounces@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-users-bounces@lists.berlios.de] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Snowcrash Short<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 16, 2012 8:48 AM<br><b>To:</b> opensim-users@lists.berlios.de<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Opensim-users] Announcement of inventory tool (MyInventory), mostly of interest to grid operators/grid nauts<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>I think that giving a everybody a feel for what the tool is really about, prior to going open source is an excellent idea.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>I think this would be beneficial for all. The community could help identify issues before they were "let loose in the wild", as I have said repeatedly, MyInventory is not intended to be a tool for ripping assets, on the other hand I am of the firm conviction that the end-user has far too little control of his or her own inventory, and that access to content is one of two major obstacles preventing users from adopting opensim on a wider scale.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>best regards<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'>Snowcrash<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>I don’t expect to change your mind on this but I really don’t understand the “</span>I am of the firm conviction that the end-user has far too little control of his or her own inventory” comment. If I have an item in inventory I have all the rights that are needed to be conveyed. It gives me the “right” to use the item on the grid where the inventory resides. I am beholden to the grid operator for backup and maintenance of that item so it remains useable but again that’s effectively the contract I enter into when I access a grid. So no users rights are violated here at all. If you imply that you have the right to move it off the grid I’d assert that *<b>may</b>* be true but if so it’s because you have a separate license that allows that (and presumably received the content via an external mechanism).<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>I have to admit, one aspect of all this does make me smile a bit. You can make many of the same arguments made against SnowCrash’s application about HyperGrid itself. I argued unsuccessfully obviously when it was introduced that it didn’t belong in core, was a research project, and that the security and IP issues weren’t sufficiently thought through. That didn’t stop it and so, IMO, we have the perception that OpenSim is unfriendly to content creators. It’s the reason I will never place my content on anything but a walled garden grid and specifically those that have considered the maintenance and security ramifications of running one. And that includes content I choose to distribute for free.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>This problem, whether in the form of a copying tool or HyperGrid itself, will continue to persist until the community at large solves the problem of cross grid IP rights. And the current basic permissions system we have today is just simply not adequate (it’s barely adequate for a standalone grid, let alone anything beyond that). Frankly OpenSim is barely adequate for a standalone grid. So again, trying to build large scale distributed systems with it falls squarely in the “research” category. Interesting work but not yet what I would call the stable basis for someone using it for a product,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Mike<span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal>On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 2:25 PM, Fleep Tuque <<a href="mailto:fleep513@gmail.com" target="_blank">fleep513@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>I wanted to throw one other thought out there before I head off for a Friday full of meetings.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>A few months ago, I made a blog post encouraging Second Life users to move beyond that platform if they wished to see the Metaverse we imagined become a reality. I suggested exploring Opensim as a first step in that process, in part because it's an easy transition from SL to Opensim due to their similarities, but also because in my view, the Opensim community is far more forward thinking and dedicated to the Metaverse concept and ideal than Linden Lab probably ever was, and certainly more than Linden Lab is now (which is to say, not at all!). I won't repeat the post, but feel free to read it if you're interested:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><a href="http://www.fleeptuque.com/blog/2012/08/why-anyone-who-cares-about-the-metaverse-needs-to-move-beyond-second-life-now-not-later/" target="_blank">http://www.fleeptuque.com/blog/2012/08/why-anyone-who-cares-about-the-metaverse-needs-to-move-beyond-second-life-now-not-later/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I was shocked, flabbergasted really, by the huge response to that post. I just don't see 100+ comments on my blog posts very often, and while many of them were nostalgic about the early years of SL, if you were to read through those comments, you would see the terrible impression that many Second Life users have about Opensim all boils down to perceived (and real) content theft. In the US, they talk about large entitlements being the "third rail" of politics - meaning the topic is electric and any politician who goes near it is likely to be killed. Copyright/IP and exporting content to other grids is the "third rail" of Opensim. The mere mention of the topic generates enormous amounts of passion on every side of the issue.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Nevertheless, these are the hard problems that innovators and pioneers must solve. If it were easy, anyone could do it and we'd already be further along down the Metaverse path than we are. But it isn't easy, it's complicated, and fraught with not only legal concerns, but ethical and moral ones too. The only way to move forward is to try new things, to make best efforts to address as many sides of the issue as possible, and to keep the channels of communication and dialogue open. Demonizing those on any side of the issue is likely to get us no where and only furthers the perception that the problems are unsolvable.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>From my view, Snowcrash has identified a legitimate area where Opensim needs more development, more eyes on the problem, and more efforts to achieve workable solutions. I don't know that the tool he has designed is the best solution, but I do appreciate that he has asked for feedback, I do appreciate the commitment to open source his attempt at a solution, and I definitely would hate to see him killed on sight for having the gumption to try to approach the third rail. Someone needs to! <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I might suggest, Snowcrash, that when you're ready, perhaps you could release the tool in a limited pilot phase first and allow some of the developers and end users here in the community to test it, see how it functions, and give you additional feedback before you release it more widely or open the source. It isn't just hysteria or knee-jerk reaction on the part of those with concern, many of us have been fighting the perception that Opensim is all about content theft for years, and in part because there HAS been a lot of theft, and it IS a tricky problem to solve.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I'd like to think the community has the capacity to find a good way forward, even if we can't solve every problem immediately or with a single tool. Still, a step forward is a step forward, and I'd be happy to volunteer as a pilot tester if you're open to that idea.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Sincerely,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>- Chris/Fleep<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Chris M. Collins (SL/OS: Fleep Tuque)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Center for Simulations & Virtual Environments Research (UCSIM)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>UCIT Instructional & Research Computing<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>University of Cincinnati<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>406A Zimmer Hall<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>315 College Drive<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>PO BOX 210088<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Cincinnati, OH 45221-0088<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><a href="mailto:chris.collins@uc.edu" target="_blank">chris.collins@uc.edu</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><a href="tel:%28513%29%20556-3018" target="_blank">(513) 556-3018</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><a href="http://ucsim.uc.edu" target="_blank">http://ucsim.uc.edu</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 6:56 AM, Marcus Llewellyn <<a href="mailto:marcus.llewellyn@gmail.com" target="_blank">marcus.llewellyn@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On 11/16/2012 12:56 AM, Snowcrash Short wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Users have right too, you know? <span style='color:#888888'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#888888'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal>Absolutely. Believe me, I'm a huge supporter of user's rights. These include things like (as they're known in the U.S.) fair use and first sale doctrines. But I ask you not to forget forget that the ability to exercise copyright or enter into a contract is *also* a user's right. This isn't a "Them against Us" issue. It's an _ALL of us_ issue. Fighting for one set of rights while disregarding or undermining other rights is not a tenable position.<br><br>I've would adore it if someone were to step up and pull people together into finally wrangling a framework that allows for people like Fleep to share her creations freely across virtual worlds in a user friendly format, while also allowing commercial creators to have a reasonable expectation of the preservation of their licenses and copyrights. That should be the real project here. There's too many missing pieces at the moment. Getting an export flag implemented on the server and in viewers, although an imperfect solution, would be an excellent way to get the ball rolling.<br><br>Any other action, I think, will tend to be perceived as a, "I want what I want, and I want it now, damn the consequences," response to the community, whether or not that perception is warranted.<span style='color:#888888'><br><br>Marcus</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>Opensim-users mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Opensim-users@lists.berlios.de" target="_blank">Opensim-users@lists.berlios.de</a><br><a href="https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users" target="_blank">https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br>_______________________________________________<br>Opensim-users mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Opensim-users@lists.berlios.de">Opensim-users@lists.berlios.de</a><br><a href="https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users" target="_blank">https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></body></html>