[Opensim-users] Announcement of inventory tool (MyInventory), mostly of interest to grid operators/grid nauts

Fri Nov 16 15:59:16 UTC 2012

On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 3:22 PM, Mike Chase <
mike.chase at alternatemetaverse.com> wrote:

> *From:* opensim-users-bounces at lists.berlios.de [mailto:
> opensim-users-bounces at lists.berlios.de] *On Behalf Of *Snowcrash Short
> *Sent:* Friday, November 16, 2012 8:48 AM
>
> *To:* opensim-users at lists.berlios.de
> *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-users] Announcement of inventory tool
> (MyInventory), mostly of interest to grid operators/grid nauts****
>
> ** **
>
> I think that giving a everybody a feel for what the tool is really about,
> prior to going open source is an excellent idea.****
>
> ** **
>
> I think this would be beneficial for all. The community could help
> identify issues before they were "let loose in the wild", as I have said
> repeatedly, MyInventory is not intended to be a tool for ripping assets, on
> the other hand I am of the firm conviction that the end-user has far too
> little control of his or her own inventory, and that access to content is
> one of two major obstacles preventing users from adopting opensim on a
> wider scale.****
>
> ** **
>
> best regards****
>
> Snowcrash****
>
> ** **
>
> I don’t expect to change your mind on this but I really don’t understand
> the “I am of the firm conviction that the end-user has far too little
> control of his or her own inventory” comment. If I have an item in
> inventory I have all the rights that are needed to be conveyed.  It gives
> me the “right” to use the item on the grid where the inventory resides.  I
> am beholden to the grid operator for backup and maintenance of that item so
> it remains useable but again that’s effectively the contract I enter into
> when I access a grid.   So no users rights are violated here at all.  If
> you imply that you have the right to move it off the grid I’d assert that *
> *may** be true but if so it’s because you have a separate license that
> allows that (and presumably received the content via an external mechanism).
> ****
>
> **
>
In a single grid world, like the one LL to a large extent has your comment
is perfectly valid, even to me :-) But in open sim you have a proliferation
of grids showing up and some of them dissapear again, and suddenly the hunt
for interesting content in the inventory moves from being a fun exercise to
a frustration.

Only by dealing with how assets and inventory content are being distributed
does opensim has a chance to move forward (it will still need improved
search capabilities as well, the web didn't work all that well until alta
vista and yahoo started to show up either).

I could have opted to tackle the search problem, there's probably a lot
more money in that anyways, but I opted to take a look at the inventory.

In my mind there really isn't any difference between me "purchasing" a
record online or "purchasing" a set of animations for my AO. The reason if
have quoted the purchasing is that I neither case do I purchase the actual
item, what I purchase is the right to use this item for private use.

I my country at least, private use means I can do with it what I want,
reformat, convert, destroy, transfer to other media, what ever I want, as
long as I do that for private use, and I do not try to bypass any secret
encryption schemes (note the word "secret", if the secret is out, I can
decrypt it to my hearts extent.)

As this debate clearly shows, different countries have different rules and
expectations. One way or another the issue needs to be addressed. I have
chosen the open source approach, both in terms of actual release mechanism
but also in spirit by focusing on delivering code. My solution is far from
perfect, but it does provide a starting ground.

I have to admit, one aspect of all this does make me smile a bit.  You can
> make many of the same arguments made against SnowCrash’s application about
> HyperGrid itself.  I argued unsuccessfully obviously when it was introduced
> that it didn’t belong in core, was a research project, and that the
> security and IP issues weren’t sufficiently thought through.
>
I don't think you can think this through all the way, the legal
complexities are simply too vast, and success criteria are too different
between the interested parties. The only thing that sensibly can be done is
release code and see where and when the battle ends. The Record industrys
struggles in the zero'es is a very good example of the back and forth
between user rights and publisher rights.

> That didn’t stop it and so, IMO,  we have the perception that OpenSim is
> unfriendly to content creators.  It’s the reason I will never place my
> content on anything but a walled garden grid and specifically those that
> have considered the maintenance and security ramifications of running one.
>  And that includes content I choose to distribute for free.****
>
> **
>
Exemplar sales is a difficult business model to uphold, regardless if you
sell overprices sneakers, music records or content to grid users.
Subscription services has been demonstrated to be a way forward, both for
the movie industry and the record industry, I am convinced that a business
model based on subscription services will prove advantageous for all
parties.

**
>
> This problem, whether in the form of a copying tool or HyperGrid itself,
> will continue to persist until the community at large solves the problem of
> cross grid IP rights.  And the current basic permissions system we have
> today is just simply not adequate (it’s barely adequate for a standalone
> grid, let alone anything beyond that).  Frankly OpenSim is barely adequate
> for a standalone grid.  So again, trying to build large scale distributed
> systems with it falls squarely in the “research” category.  Interesting
> work but not yet what I would call the stable basis for someone using it
> for a product,****
>
> **
>
I disagree, going large scale distributed is the way forward. Hypergrid is
a very good first beginning, it does have it's flaws, but there is does
provide a good beginning for moving forward. I agree there are situations
where a "walled garden" makes sense, just like family or corporate
intranets can make sense, but the real advances happen on the real
internet.

**
>
> Mike****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 2:25 PM, Fleep Tuque <fleep513 at gmail.com> wrote:**
> **
>
> I wanted to throw one other thought out there before I head off for a
> Friday full of meetings.****
>
> ** **
>
> A few months ago, I made a blog post encouraging Second Life users to move
> beyond that platform if they wished to see the Metaverse we imagined become
> a reality.  I suggested exploring Opensim as a first step in that process,
> in part because it's an easy transition from SL to Opensim due to
> their similarities, but also because in my view, the Opensim community is
> far more forward thinking and dedicated to the Metaverse concept and ideal
> than Linden Lab probably ever was, and certainly more than Linden Lab is
> now (which is to say, not at all!).  I won't repeat the post, but feel free
> to read it if you're interested:****
>
> ** **
>
>
> http://www.fleeptuque.com/blog/2012/08/why-anyone-who-cares-about-the-metaverse-needs-to-move-beyond-second-life-now-not-later/
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> I was shocked, flabbergasted really, by the huge response to that post.  I
> just don't see 100+ comments on my blog posts very often, and while many of
> them were nostalgic about the early years of SL, if you were to read
> through those comments, you would see the terrible impression that many
> Second Life users have about Opensim all boils down to perceived (and real)
> content theft.  In the US, they talk about large entitlements being the
> "third rail" of politics - meaning the topic is electric and any politician
> who goes near it is likely to be killed.  Copyright/IP and exporting
> content to other grids is the "third rail" of Opensim.  The mere mention of
> the topic generates enormous amounts of passion on every side of the issue.
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> Nevertheless, these are the hard problems that innovators and pioneers
> must solve.  If it were easy, anyone could do it and we'd already be
> further along down the Metaverse path than we are.  But it isn't easy, it's
> complicated, and fraught with not only legal concerns, but ethical and
> moral ones too.  The only way to move forward is to try new things, to make
> best efforts to address as many sides of the issue as possible, and to keep
> the channels of communication and dialogue open.  Demonizing those on any
> side of the issue is likely to get us no where and only furthers the
> perception that the problems are unsolvable.****
>
> ** **
>
> From my view, Snowcrash has identified a legitimate area where Opensim
> needs more development, more eyes on the problem, and more efforts to
> achieve workable solutions.  I don't know that the tool he has designed is
> the best solution, but I do appreciate that he has asked for feedback, I do
> appreciate the commitment to open source his attempt at a solution, and I
> definitely would hate to see him killed on sight for having the gumption to
> try to approach the third rail. Someone needs to!   ****
>
> ** **
>
> I might suggest, Snowcrash, that when you're ready, perhaps you could
> release the tool in a limited pilot phase first and allow some of the
> developers and end users here in the community to test it, see how it
> functions, and give you additional feedback before you release it more
> widely or open the source.  It isn't just hysteria or knee-jerk reaction on
> the part of those with concern, many of us have been fighting the
> perception that Opensim is all about content theft for years, and in part
> because there HAS been a lot of theft, and it IS a tricky problem to solve.
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> I'd like to think the community has the capacity to find a good way
> forward, even if we can't solve every problem immediately or with a single
> tool.  Still, a step forward is a step forward, and I'd be happy to
> volunteer as a pilot tester if you're open to that idea.****
>
> ** **
>
> Sincerely,****
>
> ** **
>
> - Chris/Fleep****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> Chris M. Collins (SL/OS: Fleep Tuque)****
>
> Center for Simulations & Virtual Environments Research (UCSIM)****
>
> UCIT Instructional & Research Computing****
>
> University of Cincinnati****
>
> 406A Zimmer Hall****
>
> 315 College Drive****
>
> PO BOX 210088****
>
> Cincinnati, OH 45221-0088****
>
> chris.collins at uc.edu****
>
> (513) 556-3018****
>
> ** **
>
> http://ucsim.uc.edu****
>
> ** **
>
> On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 6:56 AM, Marcus Llewellyn <
> marcus.llewellyn at gmail.com> wrote:****
>
> On 11/16/2012 12:56 AM, Snowcrash Short wrote:****
>
> Users have right too, you know?  ****
>
>  ****
>
> Absolutely. Believe me, I'm a huge supporter of user's rights. These
> include things like (as they're known in the U.S.) fair use and first sale
> doctrines. But I ask you not to forget forget that the ability to exercise
> copyright or enter into a contract is *also* a user's right.  This isn't a
> "Them against Us" issue. It's an _ALL of us_ issue. Fighting for one set of
> rights while disregarding or undermining other rights is not a tenable
> position.
>
> I've would adore it if someone were to step up and pull people together
> into finally wrangling a framework that allows for people like Fleep to
> share her creations freely across virtual worlds in a user friendly format,
> while also allowing commercial creators to have a reasonable expectation of
> the preservation of their licenses and copyrights. That should be the real
> project here. There's too many missing pieces at the moment. Getting an
> export flag implemented on the server and in viewers, although an imperfect
> solution, would be an excellent way to get the ball rolling.
>
> Any other action, I think, will tend to be perceived as a, "I want what I
> want, and I want it now, damn the consequences," response to the community,
> whether or not that perception is warranted.
>
> Marcus****
>
> ** **
>
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> ** **
>
>
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