[Opensim-users] Opensim-users Digest, Vol 63, Issue 32
Mario Carrocera Menendez
marioc at mundogenesys.com
Thu Nov 15 18:02:10 UTC 2012
I'm not really sure to undertand, but today exist a "viewer" named stored
inventory (http://secondinventory.com/), that can buy the "avatar", conect
to a grid, opensim or SecondLife, and save to your hard disk item if you
have permitions to do, it mean if is fullperms (in sl mus be creator of the
item), have control of with assets you have in a grid, so don't need
duplicate assets, if the grid have money it pay for upload, have a lot of
problems, some times need dowload and upload again becouse fail like .xml
imprudence, if have access to the console of couse iar is much better, is a
payed software and work in all world, if can do a best software, i belive
that if is free or payed is your legimit decition, the copywrite must be
respected by the software if full perms is enougt or must be just for
creators, if the software do that the grid managers i belive have not
problem, but is the software who must show that respect the copyrigth, and
is not a kind of copybot or incognito, and of course the target must be the
avatar.
Best Regggards
Mario Carrocera
Genesys, el Mundo Latino, Grid Manager
www.mundogenesys.com
-----Mensaje original-----
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Announcement of inventory tool (MyInventory), mostly of
interest to grid operators/grid nauts (Melanie)
2. Re: Announcement of inventory tool (MyInventory), mostly of
interest to grid operators/grid nauts (Melanie)
3. Re: Announcement of inventory tool (MyInventory), mostly of
interest to grid operators/grid nauts (Melanie)
4. Re: Announcement of inventory tool (MyInventory), mostly of
interest to grid operators/grid nauts (Snowcrash Short)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 18:21:51 +0100
From: Melanie <melanie at t-data.com>
To: opensim-users at lists.berlios.de
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Announcement of inventory tool
(MyInventory), mostly of interest to grid operators/grid nauts
Message-ID: <50A524AF.40701 at t-data.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Hi,
On 15/11/2012 16:26, Fleep Tuque wrote:
> A few things spring to mind as I'm reading the discussion and thinking
> about the proposed tool. Like Marcus, I'm basing the following on a
> preliminary understanding of what the tool does, but can't have a truly
> informed opinion until we've seen how it actually functions. Also, I am
> not a lawyer either, so insert all appropriate disclaimers here.
As I read it, it has at the very least the functionality of Second
Inventory.
> First, I'm a freebie content creator who distributes all of my content
> with
> a CC license, and usually in IAR format since that is the only available
> format that reliably preserves textures, item contents, and scripting
> (Imprudence's xml export doesn't preserve item contents and texture
> corruption is more frequent than I'd like). I've long wished for an
> option
> for non-grid operators to be able to upload IAR files, since right now,
> most of my content available from the web can't be used by anyone who
> doesn't have console access - which is a bummer for someone who wants to
> share her own content widely (and legally).
A .iar uploader that uses a user connection would be a fine tool indeed.
[...]
> Second, am I reading the proposal correctly that this would be an "opt in"
> service for grid operators? I've re-read the initial email a couple of
> times and I'm not clear on that. If yes, ie if grid operators need to
> explicitly include something in their configuration that would allow
> MyInventory to work, then I tentatively like the idea. [...]
The entries are to facilitate asset deduplication, however, the
proposed tool will work on any grid.
[...]
> Ideally, your tool would provide enough granular control that a grid
> operator could "opt in" to allow export or allow import or both or
> neither.
> I might be 100% comfortable allowing content from my grid to be exported
> but not willing to allow imports because of the murky provenance of
> outside
> content.
This is not possible unless the code stays closed source. Open
Source allows to trivially remove such protections and copies of the
software with the protection removed will the be distributed to
people not otherwise capable of doing so, but who have the criminal
energy to copybot in a grand style. That would surely cause the
lawyers to play a role in the matter.
[...]
> Look forward to hearing others' thoughts as well.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> - Chris/Fleep
- Melanie
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 18:28:11 +0100
From: Melanie <melanie at t-data.com>
To: opensim-users at lists.berlios.de
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Announcement of inventory tool
(MyInventory), mostly of interest to grid operators/grid nauts
Message-ID: <50A5262B.9050202 at t-data.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Hi,
On 15/11/2012 17:59, Snowcrash Short wrote:
> IANAL! but...
Precisely.
> There is no doubt that the creator owns the copyright, and the user has a
> license to use said item. One of the operative words here is "User" and
> not
> "Avatar", avatars have no legal standing, users do. One of the many issues
> here is that there is no agreement made between somebody clicking "Pay" on
> an object in a virtual world and the one "selling" the object, but thats a
> side issue.
In fact, there is. It's called the Terms Of Service of the grid in
question and such terms lay out the interpretation of the in world
permissions. Those of Second Life and of Avination limit the grant
of license to the grid of origin. In Second Life, this cannot be
overridden while Avination allows an explicit, written license to
export items. Avination will support the "exportable" flag if and
when it becomes available to allow creators to mark their items as
exportable, however, any item created before the adoption of such a
flag will default to NOT exportable and the flag default will also
be NOT exportable.
> This is where I see content creators being in a far better position than
> the Record Industry were back in the zero'es, the pricing on most content
> is so low that it really isn't worth while to pirate it for the ordinary
> user. But ease of access is very much an issue in opensim grids.
In fact, ease of access is mostly given in "open" grids like OSGrid.
The only thing really missing is a tool that allows upload of .iar
and possible .oar through a client connection. This is useful for
people on grids that don't support user connected simulators or
where the user doesn't have the time/expertise/resources to operate
a simulator.
> This very much depends on the country you live in, in my country I am
> entitled to use any digital asset I have licensed in any way I see fit -
> as
> long as this is done for personal use and I have not made a prior
> agreement
> with the distributor to not use the asset in said manner.
As above, that agreement is called the Terms Of Service. Since the
grid is the distributor, this is a valid and legally binding
agreement in any country.
> I do not agree with you about damaging the opensim community, quite the
> opposite. I see two major obstacles preventing widespread use, one is easy
> access to content, and the second is a usable search tool.
The damaging part is the public's impression that OpenSim equals
content theft.
> There is a lot of free content available, either CC licensed or public
> domain, but until now only grid operators have had access to it.
> MyInventory is intended to give the user access to this content without
> having to be technical savy enough to install and run a simulator.
See above, such a tool would be a great thing to have.
- Melanie
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 18:34:26 +0100
From: Melanie <melanie at t-data.com>
To: opensim-users at lists.berlios.de
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Announcement of inventory tool
(MyInventory), mostly of interest to grid operators/grid nauts
Message-ID: <50A527A2.9000901 at t-data.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Hi,
On 15/11/2012 18:18, Snowcrash Short wrote:
> The scenario you describe here is exactly one of the primary use-cases I
> had in mind when creating this tool, the third input method is intended to
> make publishing content easier. Basically the third, and yet unimplemented
> feature, is intended to allow users to subscribe, either via a paid
> subscription service or free access, to one or more inventory content
> providers, the content will then be replicated to the users MyInventory
> instance, and from there it can be uploaded to the users individual
> accounts.
That is a great idea, too, and will ease access to free and open
licensed content. However, such a service would be responsible for
not distributing content that has no valid license for.
> I am definitely willing to listen to ideas on how to make this tool safer
> for grid operators, although the safe harboring provisions and DMCA
> policies should be enough for most instances. I don't think anyone can say
> anything for certain, since there is very little case law on the matter,
> but IMO a reasonable assumption would be that a grid can be seen as a
> service provider, thus making illegal content the responsibility of the
> user uploading the content, as long as DMCA provisions are in place.
DMCA applies in the US only. Other countries depend on existing
copyright law. This differs from country to country. Some place all
responsibility with the distributor or service provider, others with
users. Almost all require formal suit to be brought, which is not
feasible for a $0.10 item. However, nor suing can lead to a virtual
business being destroyed by 10s of thousands of such thefts because
the proliferation of the free copies makes the original, licensed
item unsaleable. Therefore, technological protection to prevent
"casual" copying need to be in place and the software needs to guide
the user to not export things that they have no permission to export.
The only way to make this in any way safe is to keep it closed source.
- Melanie
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 18:35:02 +0100
From: Snowcrash Short <snowcrash.short at gmail.com>
To: opensim-users at lists.berlios.de
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Announcement of inventory tool
(MyInventory), mostly of interest to grid operators/grid nauts
Message-ID:
<CAMvcWdjwtfKUbVu_aKeXL857NWcRyBft0SipvpjhNR-MEcWm6Q at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 5:48 PM, Fleep Tuque <fleep513 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, to clarify, a user _may_ have rights to copy items in their
> inventory from one grid to another, but they also may not - it all
> depends
> on the individual license for the individual item.
>
> In the current server/viewer schema, the Copy/Mod/Transfer permissions
> preserved in the object edit window indicates a limited license applicable
> _only_ to the grid where the item originated, as far as I understand. This
> is the source of much confusion as many people interpret Copy/Mod/Trans
> permissions as a license applying to any grid, but it doesn't, it only
> applies to the grid where the item originated.
>
The issue is further compounded by different countries having different
laws. E.g. in my country no agreement exists unless it has been explicitly
agreed upon by both parties. I.e. I need to be presented with a clear
choice (Do you accept the TOS Yes or No), otherwise no agreement is made.
And even those agreements have their limitations, especially in regards to
end-users who are not used to complicated license agreements.
>
> An item creator can also make a separate license that applies permissions
> for other grids, which may give a user permission to copy the item to
> other
> grids, but the problem is, there's no mechanism to record that license and
> reliably attach the additional license to the item. Sticking a notecard
> in
> the item's contents is not a reliable method since it can simply be
> deleted, or in the case of an Imprudence type xml import/export, lost even
> unintentionally.
>
>
Until the server/viewer schema supports the preservation of explicit
> licensing options for more than the originating grid (the most popular
> suggestion seems to be adding an "exportable" checkbox to the existing
> C/M/T scheme), I'm afraid we'll continue to be stuck in this murky state
> where no one is entirely sure of the provenance of any item except for the
> items they have created themselves, and no one really knows which items
> are
> licensed for copy to other grids and which aren't.
>
> It's an unhappy state of affairs for everyone, right now, IMO.
>
> I agree with you about the unhappy state for everyone, and IMO it needs to
be resolved if opensim wants to progress, MyInventory is not intended to be
a rip tool and I will implement what features it takes to prevent
MyInventory from being abused, but at the sametime, users need better tools
for managing their inventories in an open grid environment.
- Chris/Fleep
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 10:23 AM, Mike Chase <
> mike.chase at alternatemetaverse.com> wrote:
>
>> Actually, as the creator of an item I own it. Not the ?user?. That?s
>> clear because I get to set the permissions under which the next ?owner?
>> or
>> licensee can use it. When someone acquires an digital asset I created
>> they
>> get a license to use it. The value of the creation itself usually far
>> exceeds what someone pays for it. I only create in grids I trust
>> because
>> the grid operator must defend my rights via a DMCA process. So no a
>> ?user?
>> doesn?t have rights to copy items in inventory they ?own?. Because
>> ownership of digital assets doesn?t transfer. Only a license to use them
>> for a purpose.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> So in short I think some of your thinking about users ?rights? is
>> somewhat flawed. That doesn?t meant there aren?t protocols to do what
>> you
>> want to do. But yeah, I think providing such a tool is asking to get
>> sued. And it probably damages the reputation of OpenSim as serious
>> software
>> for serving digital assets. That?s a shame because there are a number of
>> closed grids trying to actually correct that assumption by providing a
>> more
>> secure environment for content creators to operate in. ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Just my 2 cents. Do what you will with it****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Mike****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> *From:* opensim-users-bounces at lists.berlios.de [mailto:
>> opensim-users-bounces at lists.berlios.de] *On Behalf Of *Snowcrash Short
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 15, 2012 7:51 AM
>> *To:* opensim-users at lists.berlios.de
>> *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-users] Announcement of inventory tool
>> (MyInventory), mostly of interest to grid operators/grid nauts****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Hi****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Before this gets out of hand, let me clarify, this is not a backup
>> tool, at least no per se, one of the features is the ability to backup
>> content from an existing account (a backup which is governed by a
>> policy).
>> ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> The primary goal of the project is to move the inventory and the assets
>> to their rightful users and to empower the users to use the assets as
>> they
>> want - within legal limits.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> In an ideal world - except for special cases, the inventory and the
>> assets backing the inventory is controlled by the user, and that is the
>> goal of the project, to bring the inventory under the control of the
>> user.
>> ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> To this purpose it currently has two input streams supporting it (one
>> more is planned), the first is client side access to .iar files, the
>> second
>> is download from the users existing inventory, to the extent allowed by
>> law
>> and agreements made between the user and grid operators.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Knowing that only a few of the grid operators using Open Sim has policies
>> in place, this email serves as an invitation to make these policies
>> public,
>> and to implement - to the extent possible - these policies in
>> MyInventory.
>> ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> The question of attribution is only relevant when the assets are being
>> distributed, MyInventory has currently no functionality for distribution.
>> The as yet unfinished and only hinted at third input stream deals with
>> distribution. The current implementation does not distribute any data, it
>> only grants a user simpler way access to the assets the user has
>> rightfully
>> access to.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Best regards****
>>
>> Snowcrash****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Opensim-users mailing list
>> Opensim-users at lists.berlios.de
>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
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