[Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
Justin Clark-Casey
jjustincc at googlemail.com
Mon Nov 23 21:07:09 UTC 2009
Robert Klein wrote:
> Wow, it is really starting to sound like we need a more robust tool for
> backing up, restoring, merging, and upgrading regions and parcels. The use
> case I have is my standalone has a region that has been subdivided into 32
> parcels. Each parcel is an office space where the user can personalize their
> own space. As people roll on and off projects I need to be able to backup a
> parcel and replace it with a blank one for the next user. If the original
> user comes back for another project I need to restore their office space to
> either the same spot or another spot that is available. I seriously do not
> want to backup and restore entire regions for each change of a tiny parcel.
> Also if you rent out an event space think of how easy it would be to just
> bring events up and down based on each time slot. This would give OpenSim a
> really cool and useful advantage.
The format I chose for OAR is an attempt to eventually make this kind of thing
easier, by using separate files for objects rather than bundling everything into
a single scene file. We'll see whether this was a good idea or not (it may be
good for some things and bad for others).
I really like the debate that has been going on. Here are some points from my
perspective.
* OAR merges are pretty trivial to do. The biggest thing stopping me from doing
this, at least, is providing a switch such as --merge on the command line. I
don't want to parse that manually but there is a suitably licensed DLL out there
that I can haul in. This is a fairly high priority on my pro bono todo list. I
think Nebadon previously suggested a "merge oar" instead which might be an
alternative.
* Updating existing objects via OAR is more awkward. Even if UUIDs remained the
same for objects on load (which they don't for various reasons), the person
changing the original scene may create/delete an object which looks the same,
but ends up with an entirely different UUID. This is annoying. This may not
have been a use case that came up but it grabbed my imagination.
* Parcel info is being stored (and restored) in OARs, Dr Scofield made that
improvement some time ago (and it is in 0.6.7).
* I do intend to implement OAR saving of part of a region, and I'm sure that
this could be specified as a particular parcel. Restoration will just dump the
contents in the same spot, regardless of parcel configuration (parcel
information wouldn't be saved in partial OARs).
* Filtering (e.g. by owner id) is an interesting idea. As someone mentioned,
the permutations start to get complex.
* Direct support for OAR/IAR in some viewers would be very good. In fact, jonc
did hack in OAR save/load by hijacking some terrain menu option in the Linden
viewer afair - I think the code is sitting on the forge. Unfortunately, it felt
a little too hacky for me to put into core itself.
A better approach would be for viewers to implement a custom gui control panel
to load/save OARs and IARs. The facility could then be exposed via an OpenSim
specific documented capability. Of course, it would be a non-default option
since there will be big security concerns. But it could be useful where OpenSim
is being used in applications and specific purpose private grids.
* One thing I play around with in my head is whether one could just lay out an
OAR directly on the filesystem, rather than loading it into the database. Then
individual object files could be edited much like editing html files on a
webserver with the results seen in the 3D world. Of course, there are massive
practical difficulties with this (unlike html the object file format is
undocumented and is nothing like a markup language, lots of opaque uuids
everywhere rather than human understandable urls, synchronization issues between
world and filesystem, etc., etc.). And the usefulness seems very questionable -
editing a 3D world is very probably best done in 3D rather than in flatland.
Nonetheless, I'd be interested in any thoughts. I think that Vastpark may be
doing something like this.
>
> -Robert
>
>
> Diva Canto wrote:
>> Yep, that's my use case too. More and more, the apps I'm involved with
>> include people building things in separate development sims, possibly
>> over copies of a base model, and then having a deployment sim where
>> things are merged periodically.
>>
>> Bob Wellman wrote:
>>> I agree with Diva it would be good if on Save_oar we could specify
>>> owner-id and then the saved file would only contain prims owned by that
>>> user. However it needs to be part of a bigger change I think in trems of
>>> loading oar being less all or nothing too.
>>>
>>> One of the problems with LOAD_OAR at present is the way it replaces
>>> everything in a sim. It would be good if there were an option to replace
>>> or add to whats in a sim already with whats on the file being loaded.
>>> Maybe the replace/add options could be filtered to replace only parts of
>>> the build (eg. replace Nicks prims with the new oar of Nicks prims
>>> leaving Toms prims where they are).
>>>
>>> The use case I am thinking of is where a sim (a city) is built by the
>>> sim owner (Nick) in a standalone grid and loaded via OAR files to a
>>> public grid. Then in that public grid other people (Tom) adds
>>> furnishings to the sim in the public grid. In the meantime the sim owner
>>> (Tom) makes a mark 2 version of the sim in his standalone which he wants
>>> to use to upgrade the one in the public grid. If he does load-oar he
>>> loses all the work done by others (Tom) in the public grid version. What
>>> he wants to do is merge his work with others. So we need someway to save
>>> each contribution and merge them.
>>>
>>> I leave it to others wiser than me to devise a syntax for this.
>>>
>>>
>>> > Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 07:51:55 -0800
>>> > From: diva at metaverseink.com
>>> > To: opensim-users at lists.berlios.de
>>> > Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
>>> >
>>> > There are several kinds of filters one could add to the general
>>> > archiving facility. Parcels... why not. Another one -- more important
>>> to
>>> > me -- is owner id.
>>> >
>>> > Stefan Andersson wrote:
>>> > > There is of course always the option to implement a region module
>>> that can
>>> > > implement some fairly more detailed use case, maybe connecting to
>>> stuff like
>>> > > scheduled jobs et c.
>>> > >
>>> > > /Stefan
>>> > >
>>> > >> -----Original Message-----
>>> > >> From: opensim-users-bounces at lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-users-
>>> > >> bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Robert Klein
>>> > >> Sent: den 21 november 2009 15:24
>>> > >> To: opensim-users at lists.berlios.de
>>> > >> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> I see your points and was only suggesting we have some refined way
>>> of
>>> > >> backing
>>> > >> up regions instead of either all or nothing. Even a basic program
>>> for
>>> > >> backing up data on a computer allows you to backup either the whole
>>> > >> disk,
>>> > >> individual directories, and individual files (tar vs dd for
>>> example).
>>> > >> We
>>> > >> have methods for backing up the whole drive and individual files
>>> but
>>> > >> not
>>> > >> directories. It just seems unbalanced.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> I have seen some pretty intense builds in SL and OS on relatively
>>> small
>>> > >> parcels that would be a huge issue to recreate. The IAR files are
>>> great
>>> > >> but
>>> > >> are not a reasonable method for backing up and restoring a 64 x 128
>>> > >> parcel
>>> > >> with several buildings full of content including a museum and
>>> > >> stage/events
>>> > >> area or a nightclub. Experience tells me we are going to need this
>>> if
>>> > >> we
>>> > >> continue to support the concept of having parcels.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> -Robert
>>> > >>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Stefan Andersson-3 wrote:
>>> > >>> One way to go about it could be to make sure the oar is subdivided
>>> > >> into
>>> > >>> parcels when storing it; if so, one would probably backup the
>>> whole
>>> > >> oar,
>>> > >>> but
>>> > >>> be able to restore only parts of the oar.
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> I have only used oars for full backup, so I don't know if the
>>> parcel
>>> > >> info
>>> > >>> is
>>> > >>> already stored in it?
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> /Stefan
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> From: opensim-users-bounces at lists.berlios.de
>>> > >>> [mailto:opensim-users-bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Len
>>> > >> Brown
>>> > >>> Sent: den 21 november 2009 09:20
>>> > >>> To: opensim-users at lists.berlios.de
>>> > >>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> I am tempted to say that individual parcel backups is not a good
>>> > >> idea. If
>>> > >>> one is building on a parcel, as opposed to a full region, then
>>> simply
>>> > >>> maintaining copies of their items in their inventory should be
>>> > >> adequate.
>>> > >>> Parcels come in so many sizes and making a backup would require
>>> the
>>> > >> new
>>> > >>> parcel for a restore would have to be identical in dimensions. So
>>> > >> this
>>> > >>> can
>>> > >>> be very complex if you have a parcel that, for example, lies along
>>> a
>>> > >> road
>>> > >>> so
>>> > >>> the side of your parcel is angular. Or if you have an odd-shaped
>>> > >> parcel
>>> > >>> or
>>> > >>> a combination of parcels that are separated by other parcels you
>>> do
>>> > >> not
>>> > >>> own.
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> Backing up a region is simple enough given the standard
>>> dimensions,
>>> > >> even
>>> > >>> when dealing with megaregions, which are really just a combination
>>> of
>>> > >>> multiple "regular" regions of standard size.
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> So I feel that backing up personal parcels should remain the
>>> process
>>> > >> of
>>> > >>> maintaining items in your personal inventory and making a backup
>>> of
>>> > >> THAT
>>> > >>> rather than the parcel area itself.
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> - Len W. Brown
>>> > >>> lenwbrown at gmail.com
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 1:16 AM, Karen Palen
>>> <karen_palen at yahoo.com>
>>> > >>> wrote:
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> Just a thought, but with the economics of OpenSim being totally
>>> > >> different
>>> > >>> from Second Life, I wonder if we will end up with hundreds of tiny
>>> > >> parcels
>>> > >>> in each region?
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> It seems to me that there are several issues here concerning
>>> changes
>>> > >> in
>>> > >>> parcel size/location between backup and restore as well as some
>>> > >>> ownership/covenant/zoning issues.
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> As I think about the problem I am not sure I (or anyone else) can
>>> > >> fully
>>> > >>> articulate even the nature of those issues since they depend
>>> heavily
>>> > >> on
>>> > >>> the
>>> > >>> direction that OpenSim development and implementation takes.
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> Just the same we do need to consider them as best we can lest we
>>> fall
>>> > >> into
>>> > >>> some of the same traps as Second Life (content ownership, banking
>>> > >> debacle,
>>> > >>> and gambling come to mind).
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> Karen
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> --- On Fri, 11/20/09, Robert Klein <rtkwebman at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>>> From: Robert Klein <rtkwebman at gmail.com>
>>> > >>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
>>> > >>>> To: opensim-users at lists.berlios.de
>>> > >>>> Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 6:09 PM
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> Hey Justin,
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> Yes that is correct, just archive a single parcel on a
>>> > >>>> region. Whatever is
>>> > >>>> in the parcel gets put into the PAR file. Can it be done?
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> -Robert
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> justincc wrote:
>>> > >>>>> Robert Klein wrote:
>>> > >>>>>> We have a OAR for regions and a IAR for inventory
>>> > >>>> but what about a PAR
>>> > >>>>>> for
>>> > >>>>>> doing parcel area archiving? It would be an easy
>>> > >>>> way to dedicate one
>>> > >>>>>> subdivided parcel area for bringing things in and
>>> > >>>> out of OpenSims that
>>> > >>>>>> either use the mega region or just have a single
>>> > >>>> region that is
>>> > >>>>>> subdivided.
>>> > >>>>>> Also the beauty of this would be in the future if
>>> > >>>> you have renters or
>>> > >>>>>> event
>>> > >>>>>> spaces you can keep backups of just those spaces.
>>> > >>>>> I'm not too sure if I get exactly what you mean.
>>> > >>>> Are you talking about
>>> > >>>>> archiving just the contents of a single parcel on a
>>> > >>>> region?
>>> > >>>>> --
>>> > >>>>> justincc
>>> > >>>>> Justin Clark-Casey
>>> > >>>>> http://justincc.org
>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
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--
Justin Clark-Casey (justincc)
http://justincc.org
http://twitter.com/justincc
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