[Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
Robert Klein
rtkwebman at gmail.com
Mon Nov 23 20:14:51 UTC 2009
I do not have the server resources at this time to create 32 functional
regions. That would also add a lot of uneeded complexity to creating
temporary virtual workspaces for project collaboration and training. I try
to keep things simple in order to up the reliability factor. It took me only
a few minutes to subdivide a region into 32 parcels with a simple naming
convention for each parcel. Other than not having a way to directly backup
and restore a single parcel everything else works just fine. :)
-Robert
Dickson, Mike (ISS Software) wrote:
>
> As long as a region can also be arbitrarily small I think a region based
> approach can work. Really the 256m square model was effective and will
> remain so for some use cases. But there are others where megaregions or
> smaller regions even might make sense. Lastly stitching them together on
> a grid is itself a simplifying assumption. Other systems like Croquet and
> ActiveWorlds really are more decoupled from that and you can "portal"
> between completely disconnected regions.
>
> I guess this boils down to the use cases you want to support and where the
> current approach fails to achieve that.
>
> Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: opensim-users-bounces at lists.berlios.de
> [mailto:opensim-users-bounces at lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Karen Palen
> Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 10:29 AM
> To: opensim-users at lists.berlios.de
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
>
> I have to wonder if that isn't being too "SecondLife centric"!
>
> There really seems to be no reason why you can't give each user an entire
> region with OpenSim.
>
> The restrictions and expense of a region really boil down to SecondLife's
> business model in which they charge for virtual land by the square meter.
> This is not due to any fundamental cost increment - the real cost
> variables are things like the number of prims and avatars on the land, not
> its "virtual area".
>
> This still does not address any ownership issues which really are a
> different dimension of the problem. I suspect that this is bound up in the
> ownership issues you see in Hypergrids.
>
> I don't have a good solution to these issues, apart from being prepared to
> donate much of my own past 3d work.
>
> Karen
>
> --- On Sat, 11/21/09, Robert Klein <rtkwebman at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> From: Robert Klein <rtkwebman at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
>> To: opensim-users at lists.berlios.de
>> Date: Saturday, November 21, 2009, 7:04 PM
>>
>> Wow, it is really starting to sound like we need a more
>> robust tool for
>> backing up, restoring, merging, and upgrading regions and
>> parcels. The use
>> case I have is my standalone has a region that has been
>> subdivided into 32
>> parcels. Each parcel is an office space where the user can
>> personalize their
>> own space. As people roll on and off projects I need to be
>> able to backup a
>> parcel and replace it with a blank one for the next user.
>> If the original
>> user comes back for another project I need to restore their
>> office space to
>> either the same spot or another spot that is available. I
>> seriously do not
>> want to backup and restore entire regions for each change
>> of a tiny parcel.
>> Also if you rent out an event space think of how easy it
>> would be to just
>> bring events up and down based on each time slot. This
>> would give OpenSim a
>> really cool and useful advantage.
>>
>> -Robert
>>
>>
>> Diva Canto wrote:
>> >
>> > Yep, that's my use case too. More and more, the apps
>> I'm involved with
>> > include people building things in separate development
>> sims, possibly
>> > over copies of a base model, and then having a
>> deployment sim where
>> > things are merged periodically.
>> >
>> > Bob Wellman wrote:
>> >> I agree with Diva it would be good if on Save_oar
>> we could specify
>> >> owner-id and then the saved file would only
>> contain prims owned by that
>> >> user. However it needs to be part of a bigger
>> change I think in trems of
>> >> loading oar being less all or nothing too.
>> >>
>> >> One of the problems with LOAD_OAR at present is
>> the way it replaces
>> >> everything in a sim. It would be good if there
>> were an option to replace
>> >> or add to whats in a sim already with whats on the
>> file being loaded.
>> >> Maybe the replace/add options could be filtered to
>> replace only parts of
>> >> the build (eg. replace Nicks prims with the new
>> oar of Nicks prims
>> >> leaving Toms prims where they are).
>> >>
>> >> The use case I am thinking of is where a sim (a
>> city) is built by the
>> >> sim owner (Nick) in a standalone grid and loaded
>> via OAR files to a
>> >> public grid. Then in that public grid other people
>> (Tom) adds
>> >> furnishings to the sim in the public grid. In the
>> meantime the sim owner
>> >> (Tom) makes a mark 2 version of the sim in his
>> standalone which he wants
>> >> to use to upgrade the one in the public grid. If
>> he does load-oar he
>> >> loses all the work done by others (Tom) in the
>> public grid version. What
>> >> he wants to do is merge his work with others. So
>> we need someway to save
>> >> each contribution and merge them.
>> >>
>> >> I leave it to others wiser than me to devise a
>> syntax for this.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 07:51:55 -0800
>> >> > From: diva at metaverseink.com
>> >> > To: opensim-users at lists.berlios.de
>> >> > Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel
>> Archiver?
>> >> >
>> >> > There are several kinds of filters one
>> could add to the general
>> >> > archiving facility. Parcels... why not.
>> Another one -- more important
>> >> to
>> >> > me -- is owner id.
>> >> >
>> >> > Stefan Andersson wrote:
>> >> > > There is of course always the
>> option to implement a region module
>> >> that can
>> >> > > implement some fairly more
>> detailed use case, maybe connecting to
>> >> stuff like
>> >> > > scheduled jobs et c.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > /Stefan
>> >> > >
>> >> > >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> > >> From: opensim-users-bounces at lists.berlios.de
>> [mailto:opensim-users-
>> >> > >> bounces at lists.berlios.de]
>> On Behalf Of Robert Klein
>> >> > >> Sent: den 21 november 2009
>> 15:24
>> >> > >> To: opensim-users at lists.berlios.de
>> >> > >> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users]
>> Parcel Archiver?
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> I see your points and was only
>> suggesting we have some refined way
>> >> of
>> >> > >> backing
>> >> > >> up regions instead of either
>> all or nothing. Even a basic program
>> >> for
>> >> > >> backing up data on a computer
>> allows you to backup either the whole
>> >> > >> disk,
>> >> > >> individual directories, and
>> individual files (tar vs dd for
>> >> example).
>> >> > >> We
>> >> > >> have methods for backing up
>> the whole drive and individual files
>> >> but
>> >> > >> not
>> >> > >> directories. It just seems
>> unbalanced.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> I have seen some pretty
>> intense builds in SL and OS on relatively
>> >> small
>> >> > >> parcels that would be a huge
>> issue to recreate. The IAR files are
>> >> great
>> >> > >> but
>> >> > >> are not a reasonable method
>> for backing up and restoring a 64 x 128
>> >> > >> parcel
>> >> > >> with several buildings full of
>> content including a museum and
>> >> > >> stage/events
>> >> > >> area or a nightclub.
>> Experience tells me we are going to need this
>> >> if
>> >> > >> we
>> >> > >> continue to support the
>> concept of having parcels.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> -Robert
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Stefan Andersson-3 wrote:
>> >> > >>> One way to go about it
>> could be to make sure the oar is subdivided
>> >> > >> into
>> >> > >>> parcels when storing it;
>> if so, one would probably backup the
>> >> whole
>> >> > >> oar,
>> >> > >>> but
>> >> > >>> be able to restore only
>> parts of the oar.
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>> I have only used oars for
>> full backup, so I don't know if the
>> >> parcel
>> >> > >> info
>> >> > >>> is
>> >> > >>> already stored in it?
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>> /Stefan
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>> From: opensim-users-bounces at lists.berlios.de
>> >> > >>> [mailto:opensim-users-bounces at lists.berlios.de]
>> On Behalf Of Len
>> >> > >> Brown
>> >> > >>> Sent: den 21 november 2009
>> 09:20
>> >> > >>> To: opensim-users at lists.berlios.de
>> >> > >>> Subject: Re:
>> [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>> I am tempted to say that
>> individual parcel backups is not a good
>> >> > >> idea. If
>> >> > >>> one is building on a
>> parcel, as opposed to a full region, then
>> >> simply
>> >> > >>> maintaining copies of
>> their items in their inventory should be
>> >> > >> adequate.
>> >> > >>> Parcels come in so many
>> sizes and making a backup would require
>> >> the
>> >> > >> new
>> >> > >>> parcel for a restore would
>> have to be identical in dimensions. So
>> >> > >> this
>> >> > >>> can
>> >> > >>> be very complex if you
>> have a parcel that, for example, lies along
>> >> a
>> >> > >> road
>> >> > >>> so
>> >> > >>> the side of your parcel is
>> angular. Or if you have an odd-shaped
>> >> > >> parcel
>> >> > >>> or
>> >> > >>> a combination of parcels
>> that are separated by other parcels you
>> >> do
>> >> > >> not
>> >> > >>> own.
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>> Backing up a region is
>> simple enough given the standard
>> >> dimensions,
>> >> > >> even
>> >> > >>> when dealing with
>> megaregions, which are really just a combination
>> >> of
>> >> > >>> multiple "regular" regions
>> of standard size.
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>> So I feel that backing up
>> personal parcels should remain the
>> >> process
>> >> > >> of
>> >> > >>> maintaining items in your
>> personal inventory and making a backup
>> >> of
>> >> > >> THAT
>> >> > >>> rather than the parcel
>> area itself.
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>> - Len W. Brown
>> >> > >>> lenwbrown at gmail.com
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>> On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at
>> 1:16 AM, Karen Palen
>> >> <karen_palen at yahoo.com>
>> >> > >>> wrote:
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>> Just a thought, but with
>> the economics of OpenSim being totally
>> >> > >> different
>> >> > >>> from Second Life, I wonder
>> if we will end up with hundreds of tiny
>> >> > >> parcels
>> >> > >>> in each region?
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>> It seems to me that there
>> are several issues here concerning
>> >> changes
>> >> > >> in
>> >> > >>> parcel size/location
>> between backup and restore as well as some
>> >> > >>> ownership/covenant/zoning
>> issues.
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>> As I think about the
>> problem I am not sure I (or anyone else) can
>> >> > >> fully
>> >> > >>> articulate even the nature
>> of those issues since they depend
>> >> heavily
>> >> > >> on
>> >> > >>> the
>> >> > >>> direction that OpenSim
>> development and implementation takes.
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>> Just the same we do need
>> to consider them as best we can lest we
>> >> fall
>> >> > >> into
>> >> > >>> some of the same traps as
>> Second Life (content ownership, banking
>> >> > >> debacle,
>> >> > >>> and gambling come to
>> mind).
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>> Karen
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>> --- On Fri, 11/20/09,
>> Robert Klein <rtkwebman at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>>> From: Robert Klein
>> <rtkwebman at gmail.com>
>> >> > >>>> Subject: Re:
>> [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
>> >> > >>>> To: opensim-users at lists.berlios.de
>> >> > >>>> Date: Friday, November
>> 20, 2009, 6:09 PM
>> >> > >>>>
>> >> > >>>> Hey Justin,
>> >> > >>>>
>> >> > >>>> Yes that is correct,
>> just archive a single parcel on a
>> >> > >>>> region. Whatever is
>> >> > >>>> in the parcel gets put
>> into the PAR file. Can it be done?
>> >> > >>>>
>> >> > >>>> -Robert
>> >> > >>>>
>> >> > >>>> justincc wrote:
>> >> > >>>>> Robert Klein
>> wrote:
>> >> > >>>>>> We have a OAR
>> for regions and a IAR for inventory
>> >> > >>>> but what about a PAR
>> >> > >>>>>> for
>> >> > >>>>>> doing parcel
>> area archiving? It would be an easy
>> >> > >>>> way to dedicate one
>> >> > >>>>>> subdivided
>> parcel area for bringing things in and
>> >> > >>>> out of OpenSims that
>> >> > >>>>>> either use the
>> mega region or just have a single
>> >> > >>>> region that is
>> >> > >>>>>> subdivided.
>> >> > >>>>>> Also the
>> beauty of this would be in the future if
>> >> > >>>> you have renters or
>> >> > >>>>>> event
>> >> > >>>>>> spaces you can
>> keep backups of just those spaces.
>> >> > >>>>> I'm not too sure
>> if I get exactly what you mean.
>> >> > >>>> Are you talking about
>> >> > >>>>> archiving just the
>> contents of a single parcel on a
>> >> > >>>> region?
>> >> > >>>>> --
>> >> > >>>>> justincc
>> >> > >>>>> Justin
>> Clark-Casey
>> >> > >>>>> http://justincc.org
>> >> > >>>>>
>> _______________________________________________
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