No subject

Sat Apr 19 01:31:08 UTC 2014

to include hooks and mechanisms for expanding/enhancing the system with new=
 capabilities WITHOUT having to make major changes to the system infrastruc=
ture.

OpenSim doesn't seem to be "extensible".  OpenSim seems to be "broken".  Th=
ere is a big difference.  Maybe your definition of "extensible" means that =
it requires a rocket scientist just to get the trunk to even compile (or ev=
en work), and takes hours and hours of debugging code, just to get a module=
 to even work.  That isn't my idea of "extensible".

I understand over the past few months, the server infrastructure (and archi=
tecture) has been changing quite a bit.  It's hard to even tell if ModRex (=
or any other modules) even work with the current OpenSim trunk (or latest b=
uild) at this point.

The average layperson doesn't want to spend hours and hours trying to compi=
le from source, or debugging code, or searching for plugins/modules that ma=
y (or may not) exist, and even worse many of them may not be updated, or ma=
y not even work with the current OpenSim as "core" evolves.  Often times ma=
ny of these modules are not updated, and most have no clue how to even buil=
d from source, and for this reason it might be good to just have VERY simpl=
e "turn-key" distributions available for download. (Stable releases)

Similar to how RealXtend has done in the past.

I supposed I could sit down and begin working on creating a fully configure=
d VMWare image  of OpenSim with various modules installed and configured, t=
hat people could easily download, and be up and running in a few minutes (w=
ithout having to hunt for various modules, or applications), or sifting thr=
ough outdated wiki pages trying to figure out how to even get started or ev=
en get up and running, but to be honest most people just want something VER=
Y easy to use, VERY easy to setup, and would love a nice GUI interface (lik=
e WixTD, etc.) that they can use to administer the server, add users, etc.

Most laypeople don't want to hire a software engineer, or a programmer, jus=
t to get OpenSim to compile, or even get a module working, or just to get O=
penSim running on a machine.

If I want to use a plugin with Firefox, I've NEVER had to compile or debug =
code.  If I want to enable a PHP module, I've NEVER had to debug any code. =
 Most modules are included in the default distro, and modules can easily be=
 turned on and off, by simply "enabling" them in the default ini (configura=
tion) file.

In my opinion, you may be confusing "extensible system" as an excuse as to =
why nothing should work properly.

In my opinion, EVERY single working module that exists for OpenSim should b=
e included in the default distro (in the modules directory), and these modu=
les should ALL be disabled by default, but can be easily enabled by simply =
uncommenting out ONE single line in the default.ini configuration file.

Include EVERY single working module with the default OpenSim distro, so use=
rs have a list of default working modules that are regularly updated so tha=
t they actually work (and are not broken), so that when a stable release co=
mes out, a user can just enable or disable whatever modules they wish to us=
e (by uncommenting out a line or two in the default .ini configuration file=
) and those modules are in the modules directory, and can easily be enabled=
 by just uncommenting out a single line in the default ini configuration fi=
le.

The problem is, it seems like a herd of cats are headed in all opposite dir=
ections, and people really just want something that actually works.  Diva, =
is that honestly too much to ask?

There are Applications and there are Operating Systems.  What do you call O=
penSim?  Is it an Application or an Operating System?  (or is it neither?)

When I say "works", I'm talking about someone can download OpenSim, and be =
up and running (designing things from within the OpenSim Application platfo=
rm such as creating 3D content, in-world).  Not sitting down and downloadin=
g source code, or attempting to figure out how to learn C# or C++ or how to=
 write a module, just to get simple things running.

The thing that made RealXtend so popular was that it was easy to use, and t=
hey had distros that were already setup and ready to use (even with a nice =
"beneath the sea" demo world as part of the distro).

Keep in mind that most of the people interested in OpenSim as a 3D developm=
ent platform are laypeople, and are graphics designers (and Second Life use=
rs) that are NOT Computer Science majors, and are not engineers, and really=
 don't know ANY programming languages (some may know a bit of Java, or HTML=
, or LSL), but most don't even know C++ or C# nor would they have any idea =
how to even compile or build from source.  They just want to use OpenSim to=
 design 3D content, and create their own virtual world.

Do you expect a web developer to know C? or C++? or C#?

Try thinking of OpenSim as a "3D Web Server" for users (similar to Apache).=
  Yes, Apache is extensible, and many modules can be written for Apache, bu=
t most of the common modules are already tested and included with the Apach=
e distro.  Modules are tested, and included with all the latest releases, a=
nd users can easily comment (or uncomment) out a single line in the default=
 configuration file, and have the included modules working.

So I believe the key to making OpenSim widely adopted as a "usable" platfor=
m for 3D developers, would be to make OpenSim easy to use (so that ANYONE c=
an get up and running in less than 10 minutes).  I believe every single tes=
ted module should be included with the default distro's.  So that users can=
 easily enable/disable whatever modules they want, and users know that the =
modules included with each distro have been tested, and are working modules=
.

At this point in time, does ANYONE actually know what works, and what doesn=
't work?  Do we actually have a working distro, with working modules (that =
have been tested to work) with an actual OpenSim release?

Since 0.7 release is supposed to be coming out soon (in a week?) is there a=
ny way that we can stop development, and begin testing all the OpenSim modu=
les, and add all the OpenSim modules (that have been tested and are working=
) to an OpenSim 0.7 release candidate?

RealXtend does a very good job of doing this (with their old distros), but =
now that ModRex is integrated with OpenSim core, we're back to the drawing =
board again.

If someone wants to enable ModRex, they should just be able to uncomment ou=
t a line in the default .ini file, and all the features of ModRex should wo=
rk.  If someone wants to enable currency, they should just be able to just =
uncomment out a line in the default .ini file, and now the currency module =
should be enabled.

Why not make things SIMPLE and EASY to use?

If someone wants to write a module (and wants it included with the OpenSim =
distro) then it needs to be tested, and once it has been tested (and confir=
med to work) then it can be included with the OpenSim distro.  This way at =
least we know what modules work (and are tested).

OpenSim has evolved so quickly, that I'm not quite sure what modules even e=
xist (or even work) at this point, and I have a few old distro's running, b=
ut I was too scared to even upgrade because everyone said that "OpenSim is =
currently broken" (due to all the latest changes) and people really just re=
ally want a WORKING distro (with working modules).

I'm still running OpenSim 0.62 and ReX Server 0.4 on my local machines simp=
ly because it has been months where things have been completely broken (as =
OpenSim trunk would not even compile) and OpenSim has been making some back=
end changes and I'm still not even sure that ModRex/RealXtend even works si=
nce it has migrated over to OpenSim?

I think your definition of "extensibility" and "extensible systems architec=
ture" is different from mine.  I believe in having something that ACTUALLY =
WORKS (out of the box), and extensibility means that new capabilities could=
 EASILY be added without having to make changes to the system infrastructur=
e.

Your definition of "extensibility" seems to mean, nothing works, everything=
 is broken, and you need to hire a software engineer just to get a few basi=
c modules up and running.

In my opinion, "extensibility" means that all the various modules would com=
e by default with the default OpenSim distro, and they could easily be turn=
ed on (enabled) or turned off (disabled) by simply uncommenting a line in t=
he default.ini file.  Similar to PHP distro, or Apache server, or various o=
ther platforms.

Either OpenSim is an Application or it's an Operating System.  Since it doe=
sn't run on bare metal, I certainly would NOT call it an Operating System, =
therefore I would consider it a software Application.  I would consider Ope=
nSim a 3D development platform.

In my opinion, I would consider OpenSim a Server platform (software applica=
tion) and you need both the OpenSim Server (platform) and a compatible View=
er to make OpenSim work.

The problem is that OpenSim has evolved so much (and so quickly) that much =
of the Wiki documentation is outdated, no one is quite sure what even works=
 at this point, and what doesn't work at this point. There is no list of re=
cently "tested" modules (that are known to work with the current build/late=
st distro).

Most "noobs" just really want a distro that they can easily download (maybe=
 in a VMWare format) so they can just fire up a pre-configured image, and b=
e up and running in minutes (instead of days or weeks).

I'm willing to help test, and I'm willing to help with documentation, and I=
'm willing to even create "distros" that are easy to use (and that are test=
ed and working) but it seems like nobody is working together.

What if we just STOPPED developing, for just ONE week, and worked together =
on creating an actual distro?  Just a working (and well tested) distro, tha=
t is thoroughly tested, that is STABLE, and that has all the OpenSim module=
s working with it?

Then release it as a OpenSim 0.7 release.

That's all I ask.  Then after OpenSim 0.7 release candidate comes out (and =
it well tested, and all the modules from the OpenSim GForge are tested to w=
ork and be compatible with the 0.7 release, and then we wrap everything up,=
 and release it as a working distro!

Just halt development for 1 week, and just focus on bug fixes, and getting =
the modules to all work so we can just have a nice OpenSim 0.7 release cand=
idate, with lots of working modules (that are all tested) and are included =
in the default distro.

People can still choose what modules they wish to enable, but at least incl=
ude all the known working modules with the default distro (or create a "van=
illa" distro, and a "full distro" with the OpenSim 0.7 Release).  That way =
one has the working modules, and the other doesn't have the working modules=
.

But this way at least we can have an actual TESTED release candidate, that =
has all the working OpenSim modules (with updated documentation).

I'm willing to help with documentation, and testing, but I just want to see=
 an actual release candidate (with working modules) come out.

On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 2:03 PM, <diva at metaverseink.com<mailto:diva at metaver=
seink.com>> wrote:
Mark Malewski wrote:
> It would just be nice to get everything integrated back into core (or as
> OpenSim modules).
This would be terrible. We're going in the opposite direction, which is
to have a minimal core and let people do their own extensions as they
wish, hopefully replacing the heck out of the reference implementations.

I think you, and maybe others here, may need to understand better this
concept of extensible systems. That's at the very core of OpenSim from
the beginning, even before I started contributing -- OpenSim is not an
application, it's a platform with which to build applications.

Some extenders of OpenSim may want to get together and try to make their
extensions work with each other. That's great and desirable. But let's
not prevent innovative ideas from emerging by throwing a massive
feature-full application out there as "OpenSim".

Diva / Crista
_______________________________________________
Opensim-dev mailing list
Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de<mailto:Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de>
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev

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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>tl; dr.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Adam<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt'>

<div>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-f=
amily:
"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-siz=
e:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de
[mailto:opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark Male=
wski<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 30 September 2009 3:45 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> diva at metaverseink.com; opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Opensim-dev] OpenSim 0.7 Release Candidate with ALL workin=
g
OpenSim Modules<o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Diva,<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i>>> It would just be nice to get everything
integrated back into core (or as<br>
>> OpenSim modules).<br>
></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i>>This would be terrible. </i></b><o:p></=
o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

Diva, please explain WHY would having a working OpenSi=
m
distro be terrible?  Having something that actually "works" =
is
terrible?  In my opinion, just the opposite is true.<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>You can spend your whole life developing things (that =
no one
actually uses, and that don't actually work or do much of anything, and tha=
t no
one will ever use) or you can make a WORKING product that is usable, and th=
at
is EASY to use, and that people will use.<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

You seem to prefer the latter.  <o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><i>> I think you,=
 and
maybe others here, may need to understand better this<br>
>concept of extensible systems. That's at the very core of OpenSim from<=
br>
>the beginning, even before I started contributing -- OpenSim is not an<=
br>
>application, it's a platform with which to build applications.</i></b><=
o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

I think you need to sit down and understand the concep=
t of
"working product".  You also need to stop confusing
"extensible system" with "not working" product.<o:p></o=
:p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

PHP,
and Apache are what I would consider "extensible systems".  =
PHP
is easily downloaded, and it works (out of the box).  Yet it comes wit=
h
many different modules (as part of the default distro) and those modules ha=
ve
all been thoroughly tested, and can easily be enabled by simply uncommentin=
g
out the module name in the default.ini file.<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3Dapple-style-span><span style=3D'font-fam=
ily:"-webkit-sans-serif","serif"'>From
an engineering standpoint, extensibility means the system is designed to
include hooks and mechanisms for expanding/enhancing the system with new
capabilities WITHOUT having to make major changes to the system
infrastructure. </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

OpenSim doesn't seem to be "extensible".
 OpenSim seems to be "broken".  There is a big differen=
ce.
 Maybe your definition of "extensible" means that it require=
s a
rocket scientist just to get the trunk to even compile (or even work), and
takes hours and hours of debugging code, just to get a module to even work.
 That isn't my idea of "extensible".<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

I understand over the past few months, the server
infrastructure (and architecture) has been changing quite a bit.  It's
hard to even tell if ModRex (or any other modules) even work with the curre=
nt
OpenSim trunk (or latest build) at this point.  <o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

The average layperson doesn't want to spend hours and =
hours
trying to compile from source, or debugging code, or searching for
plugins/modules that may (or may not) exist, and even worse many of them ma=
y
not be updated, or may not even work with the current OpenSim as
"core" evolves.  Often times many of these modules are not
updated, and most have no clue how to even build from source, and for this
reason it might be good to just have VERY simple "turn-key"
distributions available for download. (Stable releases)<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

Similar to how RealXtend has done in the past.  <=
o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>I supposed I could sit down and begin working on creat=
ing a
fully configured VMWare image  of OpenSim with various modules install=
ed
and configured, that people could easily download, and be up and running in=
 a
few minutes (without having to hunt for various modules, or applications), =
or
sifting through outdated wiki pages trying to figure out how to even get
started or even get up and running, but to be honest most people just want
something VERY easy to use, VERY easy to setup, and would love a nice GUI i=
nterface
(like WixTD, etc.) that they can use to administer the server, add users, e=
tc.<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

Most laypeople don't want to hire a software engineer,=
 or a
programmer, just to get OpenSim to compile, or even get a module working, o=
r
just to get OpenSim running on a machine.  <o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

If I want to use a plugin with Firefox, I've NEVER had=
 to
compile or debug code.  If I want to enable a PHP module, I've NEVER h=
ad
to debug any code.  Most modules are included in the default distro, a=
nd
modules can easily be turned on and off, by simply "enabling" the=
m in
the default ini (configuration) file.<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>In my opinion, you may be confusing "extensible
system" as an excuse as to why nothing should work properly.<o:p></o:p=
></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>In my opinion, EVERY single working module that exists=
 for
OpenSim should be included in the default distro (in the modules directory)=
,
and these modules should ALL be disabled by default, but can be easily enab=
led
by simply uncommenting out ONE single line in the default.ini configuration
file.<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Include EVERY single working module with the default O=
penSim
distro, so users have a list of default working modules that are regularly
updated so that they actually work (and are not broken), so that when a sta=
ble
release comes out, a user can just enable or disable whatever modules they =
wish
to use (by uncommenting out a line or two in the default .ini configuration
file) and those modules are in the modules directory, and can easily be ena=
bled
by just uncommenting out a single line in the default ini configuration fil=
e.<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

The problem is, it seems like a herd of cats are heade=
d in
all opposite directions, and people really just want something that actuall=
y
works.  Diva, is that honestly too much to ask?<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

There are Applications and there are Operating Systems=
.
 What do you call OpenSim?  Is it an Application or an Operating
System?  (or is it neither?)<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

When I say "works", I'm talking about someon=
e can
download OpenSim, and be up and running (designing things from within the
OpenSim Application platform such as creating 3D content, in-world).  =
Not
sitting down and downloading source code, or attempting to figure out how t=
o
learn C# or C++ or how to write a module, just to get simple things running=
.<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>The thing that made RealXtend so popular was that it w=
as
easy to use, and they had distros that were already setup and ready to use
(even with a nice "beneath the sea" demo world as part of the
distro).<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Keep in mind that most of the people interested in Ope=
nSim
as a 3D development platform are laypeople, and are graphics designers (and=
 Second
Life users) that are NOT Computer Science majors, and are not engineers, an=
d
really don't know ANY programming languages (some may know a bit of Java, o=
r
HTML, or LSL), but most don't even know C++ or C# nor would they =
have
any idea how to even compile or build from source.  They just want to =
use
OpenSim to design 3D content, and create their own virtual world.<o:p></o:p=
></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Do you expect a web developer to know C? or C++? or C#=
?<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

Try thinking of OpenSim as a "3D Web Server"=
 for
users (similar to Apache).  Yes, Apache is extensible, and many module=
s
can be written for Apache, but most of the common modules are already teste=
d
and included with the Apache distro.  Modules are tested, and included
with all the latest releases, and users can easily comment (or uncomment) o=
ut a
single line in the default configuration file, and have the included module=
s
working.<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

So I believe the key to making OpenSim widely adopted =
as a
"usable" platform for 3D developers, would be to make OpenSim eas=
y to
use (so that ANYONE can get up and running in less than 10 minutes).  =
I
believe every single tested module should be included with the default
distro's.  So that users can easily enable/disable whatever modules th=
ey
want, and users know that the modules included with each distro have been
tested, and are working modules.<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>At this point in time, does ANYONE actually know what =
works,
and what doesn't work?  Do we actually have a working distro, with wor=
king
modules (that have been tested to work) with an actual OpenSim release?<o:p=
></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Since 0.7 release is supposed to be coming out soon (i=
n a
week?) is there any way that we can stop development, and begin testing all=
 the
OpenSim modules, and add all the OpenSim modules (that have been tested and=
 are
working) to an OpenSim 0.7 release candidate?<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>RealXtend does a very good job of doing this (with the=
ir old
distros), but now that ModRex is integrated with OpenSim core, we're back t=
o
the drawing board again. <o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

If someone wants to enable ModRex, they should just be=
 able
to uncomment out a line in the default .ini file, and all the features of
ModRex should work.  If someone wants to enable currency, they should =
just
be able to just uncomment out a line in the default .ini file, and now the
currency module should be enabled.  <o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Why not make things SIMPLE and EASY to use?<o:p></o:p>=
</p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

If someone wants to write a module (and wants it inclu=
ded
with the OpenSim distro) then it needs to be tested, and once it has been
tested (and confirmed to work) then it can be included with the OpenSim dis=
tro.
 This way at least we know what modules work (and are tested).<o:p></o=
:p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>OpenSim has evolved so quickly, that I'm not quite sur=
e what
modules even exist (or even work) at this point, and I have a few old
distro's running, but I was too scared to even upgrade because everyone sai=
d
that "OpenSim is currently broken" (due to all the latest changes=
)
and people really just really want a WORKING distro (with working modules).=
<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

I'm still running OpenSim 0.62 and ReX Server 0.4 on m=
y
local machines simply because it has been months where things have been
completely broken (as OpenSim trunk would not even compile) and OpenSim has
been making some backend changes and I'm still not even sure that
ModRex/RealXtend even works since it has migrated over to OpenSim?  <o=
:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

I think your definition of "extensibility" a=
nd
"extensible systems architecture" is different from mine.  I
believe in having something that ACTUALLY WORKS (out of the box), and
extensibility means that new capabilities could EASILY be added without hav=
ing
to make changes to the system infrastructure.<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Your definition of "extensibility" seems to =
mean,
nothing works, everything is broken, and you need to hire a software engine=
er
just to get a few basic modules up and running.<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

In my opinion, "extensibility" means that al=
l the
various modules would come by default with the default OpenSim distro, and =
they
could easily be turned on (enabled) or turned off (disabled) by simply
uncommenting a line in the default.ini file.  Similar to PHP distro, o=
r
Apache server, or various other platforms.<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

Either OpenSim is an Application or it's an Operating
System.  Since it doesn't run on bare metal, I certainly would NOT cal=
l it
an Operating System, therefore I would consider it a software Application.
 I would consider OpenSim a 3D development platform.<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>In my opinion, I would consider OpenSim a Server platf=
orm
(software application) and you need both the OpenSim Server (platform) and =
a
compatible Viewer to make OpenSim work.<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

The problem is that OpenSim has evolved so much (and s=
o
quickly) that much of the Wiki documentation is outdated, no one is quite s=
ure
what even works at this point, and what doesn't work at this point. There i=
s no
list of recently "tested" modules (that are known to work with th=
e
current build/latest distro). <o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Most "noobs" just really want a distro that =
they
can easily download (maybe in a VMWare format) so they can just fire up a
pre-configured image, and be up and running in minutes (instead of days or
weeks).<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>I'm willing to help test, and I'm willing to help with
documentation, and I'm willing to even create "distros" that are =
easy
to use (and that are tested and working) but it seems like nobody is workin=
g
together.<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

What if we just STOPPED developing, for just ONE week,=
 and
worked together on creating an actual distro?  Just a working (and wel=
l
tested) distro, that is thoroughly tested, that is STABLE, and that has all=
 the
OpenSim modules working with it?<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Then release it as a OpenSim 0.7 release.<o:p></o:p></=
p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

That's all I ask.  Then after OpenSim 0.7 release
candidate comes out (and it well tested, and all the modules from the OpenS=
im
GForge are tested to work and be compatible with the 0.7 release, and then =
we
wrap everything up, and release it as a working distro!<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

Just halt development for 1 week, and just focus on bu=
g
fixes, and getting the modules to all work so we can just have a nice OpenS=
im
0.7 release candidate, with lots of working modules (that are all tested) a=
nd
are included in the default distro.  <o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

People can still choose what modules they wish to enab=
le,
but at least include all the known working modules with the default distro =
(or
create a "vanilla" distro, and a "full distro" with the
OpenSim 0.7 Release).  That way one has the working modules, and the o=
ther
doesn't have the working modules.<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>But this way at least we can have an actual TESTED rel=
ease
candidate, that has all the working OpenSim modules (with updated
documentation).<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>I'm willing to help with documentation, and testing, b=
ut I
just want to see an actual release candidate (with working modules) come ou=
t.<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 2:03 PM, <<a
href=3D"mailto:diva at metaverseink.com">diva at metaverseink.com</a>> wrote:<=
o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Mark Malewski wrote:<br=
>
> It would just be nice to get everything integrated back into core (or =
as<br>
> OpenSim modules).<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>This would be terrible. We're going in the opposite
direction, which is<br>
to have a minimal core and let people do their own extensions as they<br>
wish, hopefully replacing the heck out of the reference implementations.<br=
>
<br>
I think you, and maybe others here, may need to understand better this<br>
concept of extensible systems. That's at the very core of OpenSim from<br>
the beginning, even before I started contributing -- OpenSim is not an<br>
application, it's a platform with which to build applications.<br>
<br>
Some extenders of OpenSim may want to get together and try to make their<br=
>
extensions work with each other. That's great and desirable. But let's<br>
not prevent innovative ideas from emerging by throwing a massive<br>
feature-full application out there as "OpenSim".<br>
<br>
Diva / Crista<o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>
Opensim-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de">Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.d=
e</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev" target=3D=
"_blank">https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev</a><o:p></o:=
p></p>

</div>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>

</div>

</div>

</div>

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