No subject

to include hooks and mechanisms for expanding/enhancing the system with new
capabilities WITHOUT having to make major changes to the system
infrastructure.

OpenSim doesn't seem to be "extensible".  OpenSim seems to be "broken".
 There is a big difference.  Maybe your definition of "extensible" means
that it requires a rocket scientist just to get the trunk to even compile
(or even work), and takes hours and hours of debugging code, just to get a
module to even work.  That isn't my idea of "extensible".

I understand over the past few months, the server infrastructure (and
architecture) has been changing quite a bit.  It's hard to even tell if
ModRex (or any other modules) even work with the current OpenSim trunk (or
latest build) at this point.

The average layperson doesn't want to spend hours and hours trying to
compile from source, or debugging code, or searching for plugins/modules
that may (or may not) exist, and even worse many of them may not be updated,
or may not even work with the current OpenSim as "core" evolves.  Often
times many of these modules are not updated, and most have no clue how to
even build from source, and for this reason it might be good to just have
VERY simple "turn-key" distributions available for download. (Stable
releases)

Similar to how RealXtend has done in the past.

I supposed I could sit down and begin working on creating a fully configured
VMWare image  of OpenSim with various modules installed and configured, that
people could easily download, and be up and running in a few minutes
(without having to hunt for various modules, or applications), or sifting
through outdated wiki pages trying to figure out how to even get started or
even get up and running, but to be honest most people just want something
VERY easy to use, VERY easy to setup, and would love a nice GUI interface
(like WixTD, etc.) that they can use to administer the server, add users,
etc.

Most laypeople don't want to hire a software engineer, or a programmer, just
to get OpenSim to compile, or even get a module working, or just to get
OpenSim running on a machine.

If I want to use a plugin with Firefox, I've NEVER had to compile or debug
code.  If I want to enable a PHP module, I've NEVER had to debug any code.
 Most modules are included in the default distro, and modules can easily be
turned on and off, by simply "enabling" them in the default ini
(configuration) file.

In my opinion, you may be confusing "extensible system" as an excuse as to
why nothing should work properly.

In my opinion, EVERY single working module that exists for OpenSim should be
included in the default distro (in the modules directory), and these modules
should ALL be disabled by default, but can be easily enabled by simply
uncommenting out ONE single line in the default.ini configuration file.

Include EVERY single working module with the default OpenSim distro, so
users have a list of default working modules that are regularly updated so
that they actually work (and are not broken), so that when a stable release
comes out, a user can just enable or disable whatever modules they wish to
use (by uncommenting out a line or two in the default .ini configuration
file) and those modules are in the modules directory, and can easily be
enabled by just uncommenting out a single line in the default ini
configuration file.

The problem is, it seems like a herd of cats are headed in all opposite
directions, and people really just want something that actually works.
 Diva, is that honestly too much to ask?

There are Applications and there are Operating Systems.  What do you call
OpenSim?  Is it an Application or an Operating System?  (or is it neither?)

When I say "works", I'm talking about someone can download OpenSim, and be
up and running (designing things from within the OpenSim Application
platform such as creating 3D content, in-world).  Not sitting down and
downloading source code, or attempting to figure out how to learn C# or C++
or how to write a module, just to get simple things running.

The thing that made RealXtend so popular was that it was easy to use, and
they had distros that were already setup and ready to use (even with a nice
"beneath the sea" demo world as part of the distro).

Keep in mind that most of the people interested in OpenSim as a 3D
development platform are laypeople, and are graphics designers (and Second
Life users) that are NOT Computer Science majors, and are not engineers, and
really don't know ANY programming languages (some may know a bit of Java, or
HTML, or LSL), but most don't even know C++ or C# nor would they have any
idea how to even compile or build from source.  They just want to use
OpenSim to design 3D content, and create their own virtual world.

Do you expect a web developer to know C? or C++? or C#?

Try thinking of OpenSim as a "3D Web Server" for users (similar to Apache).
 Yes, Apache is extensible, and many modules can be written for Apache, but
most of the common modules are already tested and included with the Apache
distro.  Modules are tested, and included with all the latest releases, and
users can easily comment (or uncomment) out a single line in the default
configuration file, and have the included modules working.

So I believe the key to making OpenSim widely adopted as a "usable" platform
for 3D developers, would be to make OpenSim easy to use (so that ANYONE can
get up and running in less than 10 minutes).  I believe every single tested
module should be included with the default distro's.  So that users can
easily enable/disable whatever modules they want, and users know that the
modules included with each distro have been tested, and are working modules.

At this point in time, does ANYONE actually know what works, and what
doesn't work?  Do we actually have a working distro, with working modules
(that have been tested to work) with an actual OpenSim release?

Since 0.7 release is supposed to be coming out soon (in a week?) is there
any way that we can stop development, and begin testing all the OpenSim
modules, and add all the OpenSim modules (that have been tested and are
working) to an OpenSim 0.7 release candidate?

RealXtend does a very good job of doing this (with their old distros), but
now that ModRex is integrated with OpenSim core, we're back to the drawing
board again.

If someone wants to enable ModRex, they should just be able to uncomment out
a line in the default .ini file, and all the features of ModRex should work.
 If someone wants to enable currency, they should just be able to just
uncomment out a line in the default .ini file, and now the currency module
should be enabled.

Why not make things SIMPLE and EASY to use?

If someone wants to write a module (and wants it included with the OpenSim
distro) then it needs to be tested, and once it has been tested (and
confirmed to work) then it can be included with the OpenSim distro.  This
way at least we know what modules work (and are tested).

OpenSim has evolved so quickly, that I'm not quite sure what modules even
exist (or even work) at this point, and I have a few old distro's running,
but I was too scared to even upgrade because everyone said that "OpenSim is
currently broken" (due to all the latest changes) and people really just
really want a WORKING distro (with working modules).

I'm still running OpenSim 0.62 and ReX Server 0.4 on my local machines
simply because it has been months where things have been completely broken
(as OpenSim trunk would not even compile) and OpenSim has been making some
backend changes and I'm still not even sure that ModRex/RealXtend even works
since it has migrated over to OpenSim?

I think your definition of "extensibility" and "extensible systems
architecture" is different from mine.  I believe in having something that
ACTUALLY WORKS (out of the box), and extensibility means that new
capabilities could EASILY be added without having to make changes to the
system infrastructure.

Your definition of "extensibility" seems to mean, nothing works, everything
is broken, and you need to hire a software engineer just to get a few basic
modules up and running.

In my opinion, "extensibility" means that all the various modules would come
by default with the default OpenSim distro, and they could easily be turned
on (enabled) or turned off (disabled) by simply uncommenting a line in the
default.ini file.  Similar to PHP distro, or Apache server, or various other
platforms.

Either OpenSim is an Application or it's an Operating System.  Since it
doesn't run on bare metal, I certainly would NOT call it an Operating
System, therefore I would consider it a software Application.  I would
consider OpenSim a 3D development platform.

In my opinion, I would consider OpenSim a Server platform (software
application) and you need both the OpenSim Server (platform) and a
compatible Viewer to make OpenSim work.

The problem is that OpenSim has evolved so much (and so quickly) that much
of the Wiki documentation is outdated, no one is quite sure what even works
at this point, and what doesn't work at this point. There is no list of
recently "tested" modules (that are known to work with the current
build/latest distro).

Most "noobs" just really want a distro that they can easily download (maybe
in a VMWare format) so they can just fire up a pre-configured image, and be
up and running in minutes (instead of days or weeks).

I'm willing to help test, and I'm willing to help with documentation, and
I'm willing to even create "distros" that are easy to use (and that are
tested and working) but it seems like nobody is working together.

What if we just STOPPED developing, for just ONE week, and worked together
on creating an actual distro?  Just a working (and well tested) distro, that
is thoroughly tested, that is STABLE, and that has all the OpenSim modules
working with it?

Then release it as a OpenSim 0.7 release.

That's all I ask.  Then after OpenSim 0.7 release candidate comes out (and
it well tested, and all the modules from the OpenSim GForge are tested to
work and be compatible with the 0.7 release, and then we wrap everything up,
and release it as a working distro!

Just halt development for 1 week, and just focus on bug fixes, and getting
the modules to all work so we can just have a nice OpenSim 0.7 release
candidate, with lots of working modules (that are all tested) and are
included in the default distro.

People can still choose what modules they wish to enable, but at least
include all the known working modules with the default distro (or create a
"vanilla" distro, and a "full distro" with the OpenSim 0.7 Release).  That
way one has the working modules, and the other doesn't have the working
modules.

But this way at least we can have an actual TESTED release candidate, that
has all the working OpenSim modules (with updated documentation).

I'm willing to help with documentation, and testing, but I just want to see
an actual release candidate (with working modules) come out.



On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 2:03 PM, <diva at metaverseink.com> wrote:

> Mark Malewski wrote:
> > It would just be nice to get everything integrated back into core (or as
> > OpenSim modules).
>
> This would be terrible. We're going in the opposite direction, which is
> to have a minimal core and let people do their own extensions as they
> wish, hopefully replacing the heck out of the reference implementations.
>
> I think you, and maybe others here, may need to understand better this
> concept of extensible systems. That's at the very core of OpenSim from
> the beginning, even before I started contributing -- OpenSim is not an
> application, it's a platform with which to build applications.
>
> Some extenders of OpenSim may want to get together and try to make their
> extensions work with each other. That's great and desirable. But let's
> not prevent innovative ideas from emerging by throwing a massive
> feature-full application out there as "OpenSim".
>
> Diva / Crista
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-dev mailing list
> Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>

--001485f1ecf4de0dba0474d34838
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div>Diva,</div><div><br></div><div><div class=3D"im"><b><i>>> It wou=
ld just be nice to get everything integrated back into core (or as<br>>&=
gt; OpenSim modules).<br>></i></b></div><b><i>>This would be terrible=
.=A0</i></b></div>
<div><br></div><div>Diva, please explain WHY would having a working OpenSim=
 distro be terrible? =A0Having something that actually "works" is=
 terrible? =A0In my opinion, just the opposite is true.</div><div><br></div=
>
<div>You can spend your whole life developing things (that no one actually =
uses, and that don't actually work or do much of anything, and that no =
one will ever use) or you can make a WORKING product that is usable, and th=
at is EASY to use, and that people will use.</div>
<div><br></div><div>You seem to prefer the latter. =A0</div><div><br></div>=
<div><br></div><b><i>> I think you, and maybe others here, may need to u=
nderstand better this<br>>concept of extensible systems. That's at t=
he very core of OpenSim from<br>
>the beginning, even before I started contributing -- OpenSim is not an<=
br>>application, it's a platform with which to build applications.<b=
r></i></b><br><div>I think you need to sit down and understand the concept =
of "working product". =A0You also need to stop confusing "ex=
tensible system" with "not working" product.</div>
<div><br></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: =
-webkit-sans-serif; line-height: 19px; ">PHP, and Apache are what I would c=
onsider "extensible systems". =A0PHP is easily downloaded, and it=
 works (out of the box). =A0Yet it comes with many different modules (as pa=
rt of the default distro) and those modules have all been thoroughly tested=
, and can easily be enabled by simply uncommenting out the module name in t=
he default.ini file.</span></div>
<div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"-webkit-sans-serif"><span cla=
ss=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"line-height: 19px;"><br></span></font></di=
v><div><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: -webkit-sans-=
serif; line-height: 19px; ">From an engineering standpoint, extensibility m=
eans the system is designed to include hooks and mechanisms for expanding/e=
nhancing the system with new capabilities WITHOUT having to make major chan=
ges to the system infrastructure.=A0</span></div>
<div><br></div><div>OpenSim doesn't seem to be "extensible". =
=A0OpenSim seems to be "broken". =A0There is a big difference. =
=A0Maybe your definition of "extensible" means that it requires a=
 rocket scientist just to get the trunk to even compile (or even work), and=
 takes hours and hours of debugging code, just to get a module to even work=
. =A0That isn't my idea of "extensible".</div>
<div><br></div><div>I understand over the past few months, the server infra=
structure (and architecture) has been changing quite a bit. =A0It's har=
d to even tell if ModRex (or any other modules) even work with the current =
OpenSim trunk (or latest build) at this point. =A0</div>
<div><br></div><div>The average layperson doesn't want to spend hours a=
nd hours trying to compile from source, or debugging code, or searching for=
 plugins/modules that may (or may not) exist, and even worse many of them m=
ay not be updated, or may not even work with the current OpenSim as "c=
ore" evolves. =A0Often times many of these modules are not updated, an=
d most have no clue how to even build from source, and for this reason it m=
ight be good to just have VERY simple "turn-key" distributions av=
ailable for download. (Stable releases)</div>
<div><br></div><div>Similar to how RealXtend has done in the past. =A0</div=
><div><br></div><div>I supposed I could sit down and begin working on creat=
ing a fully configured VMWare image =A0of OpenSim with various modules inst=
alled and configured, that people could easily download, and be up and runn=
ing in a few minutes (without having to hunt for various modules, or applic=
ations), or sifting through outdated wiki pages trying to figure out how to=
 even get started or even get up and running, but to be honest most people =
just want something VERY easy to use, VERY easy to setup, and would love a =
nice GUI interface (like WixTD, etc.) that they can use to administer the s=
erver, add users, etc.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Most laypeople don't want to hire a software engine=
er, or a programmer, just to get OpenSim to compile, or even get a module w=
orking, or just to get OpenSim running on a machine. =A0</div><div><br></di=
v>
<div>If I want to use a plugin with Firefox, I've NEVER had to compile =
or debug code. =A0If I want to enable a PHP module, I've NEVER had to d=
ebug any code. =A0Most modules are included in the default distro, and modu=
les can easily be turned on and off, by simply "enabling" them in=
 the default ini (configuration) file.</div>
<div><br></div><div>In my opinion, you may be confusing "extensible sy=
stem" as an excuse as to why nothing should work properly.</div><div><=
br></div><div>In my opinion, EVERY single working module that exists for Op=
enSim should be included in the default distro (in the modules directory), =
and these modules should ALL be disabled by default, but can be easily enab=
led by simply uncommenting out ONE single line in the default.ini configura=
tion file.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Include EVERY single working module with the default Op=
enSim distro, so users have a list of default working modules that are regu=
larly updated so that they actually work (and are not broken), so that when=
 a stable release comes out, a user can just enable or disable whatever mod=
ules they wish to use (by uncommenting out a line or two in the default .in=
i configuration file) and those modules are in the modules directory, and c=
an easily be enabled by just uncommenting out a single line in the default =
ini configuration file.</div>
<div><br></div><div>The problem is, it seems like a herd of cats are headed=
 in all opposite directions, and people really just want something that act=
ually works. =A0Diva, is that honestly too much to ask?</div><div><br></div=
>
<div>There are Applications and there are Operating Systems. =A0What do you=
 call OpenSim? =A0Is it an Application or an Operating System? =A0(or is it=
 neither?)</div><div><br></div><div>When I say "works", I'm t=
alking about someone can download OpenSim, and be up and running (designing=
 things from within the OpenSim Application platform such as creating 3D co=
ntent, in-world). =A0Not sitting down and downloading source code, or attem=
pting to figure out how to learn C# or C++ or how to write a module, just t=
o get simple things running.</div>
<div><br></div><div>The thing that made RealXtend so popular was that it wa=
s easy to use, and they had distros that were already setup and ready to us=
e (even with a nice "beneath the sea" demo world as part of the d=
istro).</div>
<div><br></div><div>Keep in mind that most of the people interested in Open=
Sim as a 3D development platform are laypeople, and are graphics designers =
(and Second Life users) that are NOT Computer Science majors, and are not e=
ngineers, and really don't know ANY programming languages (some may kno=
w a bit of Java, or HTML, or LSL), but most don't even know=A0C++ or C#=
=A0nor would they have any idea how to even compile or build from source. =
=A0They just want to use OpenSim to design 3D content, and create their own=
 virtual world.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Do you expect a web developer to know C? or C++? or C#?=
</div><div><br></div><div>Try thinking of OpenSim as a "3D Web Server&=
quot; for users (similar to Apache). =A0Yes, Apache is extensible, and many=
 modules can be written for Apache, but most of the common modules are alre=
ady tested and included with the Apache distro. =A0Modules are tested, and =
included with all the latest releases, and users can easily comment (or unc=
omment) out a single line in the default configuration file, and have the i=
ncluded modules working.</div>
<div><br></div><div>So I believe the key to making OpenSim widely adopted a=
s a "usable" platform for 3D developers, would be to make OpenSim=
 easy to use (so that ANYONE can get up and running in less than 10 minutes=
). =A0I believe every single tested module should be included with the defa=
ult distro's. =A0So that users can easily enable/disable whatever modul=
es they want, and users know that the modules included with each distro hav=
e been tested, and are working modules.</div>
<div><br></div><div>At this point in time, does ANYONE actually know what w=
orks, and what doesn't work? =A0Do we actually have a working distro, w=
ith working modules (that have been tested to work) with an actual OpenSim =
release?</div>
<div><br></div><div>Since 0.7 release is supposed to be coming out soon (in=
 a week?) is there any way that we can stop development, and begin testing =
all the OpenSim modules, and add all the OpenSim modules (that have been te=
sted and are working) to an OpenSim 0.7 release candidate?</div>
<div><br></div><div>RealXtend does a very good job of doing this (with thei=
r old distros), but now that ModRex is integrated with OpenSim core, we&#39=
;re back to the drawing board again.=A0</div><div><br></div><div>If someone=
 wants to enable ModRex, they should just be able to uncomment out a line i=
n the default .ini file, and all the features of ModRex should work. =A0If =
someone wants to enable currency, they should just be able to just uncommen=
t out a line in the default .ini file, and now the currency module should b=
e enabled. =A0</div>
<div><br></div><div>Why not make things SIMPLE and EASY to use?</div><div><=
br></div><div>If someone wants to write a module (and wants it included wit=
h the OpenSim distro) then it needs to be tested, and once it has been test=
ed (and confirmed to work) then it can be included with the OpenSim distro.=
 =A0This way at least we know what modules work (and are tested).</div>
<div><br></div><div>OpenSim has evolved so quickly, that I'm not quite =
sure what modules even exist (or even work) at this point, and=A0I have a f=
ew old distro's running, but I was too scared to even upgrade because e=
veryone said that "OpenSim is currently broken" (due to all the l=
atest changes) and people really just really want a WORKING distro (with wo=
rking modules).</div>
<div><br></div><div>I'm still running OpenSim 0.62 and ReX Server 0.4 o=
n my local machines simply because it has been months where things have bee=
n completely broken (as OpenSim trunk would not even compile) and OpenSim h=
as been making some backend changes and I'm still not even sure that Mo=
dRex/RealXtend even works since it has migrated over to OpenSim? =A0</div>
<div><br></div><div>I think your definition of "extensibility" an=
d "extensible systems architecture" is different from mine. =A0I =
believe in having something that ACTUALLY WORKS (out of the box), and exten=
sibility means that new capabilities could EASILY be added without having t=
o make changes to the system infrastructure.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Your definition of "extensibility" seems to m=
ean, nothing works, everything is broken, and you need to hire a software e=
ngineer just to get a few basic modules up and running.</div><div><br></div=
>
<div>In my opinion, "extensibility" means that all the various mo=
dules would come by default with the default OpenSim distro, and they could=
 easily be turned on (enabled) or turned off (disabled) by simply uncomment=
ing a line in the default.ini file. =A0Similar to PHP distro, or Apache ser=
ver, or various other platforms.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Either OpenSim is an Application or it's an Operati=
ng System. =A0Since it doesn't run on bare metal, I certainly would NOT=
 call it an Operating System, therefore I would consider it a software Appl=
ication. =A0I would consider OpenSim a 3D development platform.</div>
<div><br></div><div>In my opinion, I would consider OpenSim a Server platfo=
rm (software application) and you need both the OpenSim Server (platform) a=
nd a compatible Viewer to make OpenSim work.</div><div><br></div><div>The p=
roblem is that OpenSim has evolved so much (and so quickly) that much of th=
e Wiki documentation is outdated, no one is quite sure what even works at t=
his point, and what doesn't work at this point. There is no list of rec=
ently "tested" modules (that are known to work with the current b=
uild/latest distro).=A0</div>
<div><br></div><div>Most "noobs" just really want a distro that t=
hey can easily download (maybe in a VMWare format) so they can just fire up=
 a pre-configured image, and be up and running in minutes (instead of days =
or weeks).</div>
<div><br></div><div>I'm willing to help test, and I'm willing to he=
lp with documentation, and I'm willing to even create "distros&quo=
t; that are easy to use (and that are tested and working) but it seems like=
 nobody is working together.</div>
<div><br></div><div>What if we just STOPPED developing, for just ONE week, =
and worked together on creating an actual distro? =A0Just a working (and we=
ll tested) distro, that is thoroughly tested, that is STABLE, and that has =
all the OpenSim modules working with it?</div>
<div><br></div><div>Then release it as a OpenSim 0.7 release.</div><div><br=
></div><div>That's all I ask. =A0Then after OpenSim 0.7 release candida=
te comes out (and it well tested, and all the modules from the OpenSim GFor=
ge are tested to work and be compatible with the 0.7 release, and then we w=
rap everything up, and release it as a working distro!</div>
<div><br></div><div>Just halt development for 1 week, and just focus on bug=
 fixes, and getting the modules to all work so we can just have a nice Open=
Sim 0.7 release candidate, with lots of working modules (that are all teste=
d) and are included in the default distro. =A0</div>
<div><br></div><div>People can still choose what modules they wish to enabl=
e, but at least include all the known working modules with the default dist=
ro (or create a "vanilla" distro, and a "full distro" w=
ith the OpenSim 0.7 Release). =A0That way one has the working modules, and =
the other doesn't have the working modules.</div>
<div><br></div><div>But this way at least we can have an actual TESTED rele=
ase candidate, that has all the working OpenSim modules (with updated docum=
entation).</div><div><br></div><div>I'm willing to help with documentat=
ion, and testing, but I just want to see an actual release candidate (with =
working modules) come out.</div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, S=
ep 30, 2009 at 2:03 PM,  <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:diva at metav=
erseink.com">diva at metaverseink.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex;">
<div class=3D"im">Mark Malewski wrote:<br>
> It would just be nice to get everything integrated back into core (or =
as<br>
> OpenSim modules).<br>
<br>
</div>This would be terrible. We're going in the opposite direction, wh=
ich is<br>
to have a minimal core and let people do their own extensions as they<br>
wish, hopefully replacing the heck out of the reference implementations.<br=
>
<br>
I think you, and maybe others here, may need to understand better this<br>
concept of extensible systems. That's at the very core of OpenSim from<=
br>
the beginning, even before I started contributing -- OpenSim is not an<br>
application, it's a platform with which to build applications.<br>
<br>
Some extenders of OpenSim may want to get together and try to make their<br=
>
extensions work with each other. That's great and desirable. But let&#3=
9;s<br>
not prevent innovative ideas from emerging by throwing a massive<br>
feature-full application out there as "OpenSim".<br>
<br>
Diva / Crista<br>
<div><div></div><div class=3D"h5">_________________________________________=
______<br>
Opensim-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de">Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.d=
e</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev" target=3D=
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