[Opensim-dev] llDetectedType and NPC's
Justin Clark-Casey
jjustincc at googlemail.com
Tue Jul 10 00:30:00 UTC 2012
Argus, I'm a little confused. Some of what you say seems to concern NPCs going to other regions via Hypergrid. But OS
NPCs are bound to the region they are instantiated in. Possibly they may be able to cross to regions in the same
simulator in the future, but they will never be able to go to other simulators, let alone Hypergrid.
So I'm assuming you're talking about reliable NPC detection in a Hypergrid situation. Ultimately, this is impossible
because the OpenSimulator operator can always change the code to return what they like. So it doesn't matter what
function the script uses - it can always be fooled.
I don't personally object to extending llDetectedType() to return NPC, though NPC was a poor choice of constant name imo
since it could clash with Linden developments in the future. I also don't object to some config value to stop the use
of OS_NPC_SENSE_AS_AGENT on a particular simulator. But being able to use NPCs with existing scripts is very useful in
some contexts so if llDetectedType() is to be extended it must accomodate that option for consistency with everything else.
Perhaps you could provide a concrete example. Not a whole script but described functionality for some real in-world tool.
On 08/07/12 20:22, Argus wrote:
> Quote: "If your solution is dependent on deviating from the SL definition for any "ll" API call, it may be easier for
> all involved in the future if you can redesign it such as to avoid future incompatibilities."
>
> The implementation of NPCs are causing the deviations from SL while all my scripts are based on the SL definitions and
> also run 1:1 in SL. If there would be a possebility to solve this issue, I also would redesign my application, but sofar
> I havnt found any relyable method for NPC detection other than llDetectedType returning NPC even when using
> OS_NPC_SENCE_AS_AGENT. Even in our Opensim code we find the name changes for hg visitors implemented as detection with
> the deffrence that NPC are excluded via the opensim code.
>
> This is also a problem for others, it not only me who is having issues with NPC detection.
>
>
> Am 08.07.2012 20:26, schrieb Dahlia Trimble:
>> In general it's not a good idea to extend any "ll" function beyond the equivalent SL definition as there is no
>> guarantee that LL may add any new functionality that may conflict in the future. If this were to happen it would be
>> difficult to resolve the conflicts as there would be scripts in use that depend on the conflicting definitions. Also
>> some scripters don't always use symbolic constants (a terrible practice but it does happen) so it's not just a matter
>> of changing a conflicting value for a constant and recompiling. If your solution is dependent on deviating from the
>> SL definition for any "ll" API call, it may be easier for all involved in the future if you can redesign it such as to
>> avoid future incompatibilities.
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 3:14 AM, Argus <argus at archimuh.de <mailto:argus at archimuh.de>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi.
>>
>> I have a problem with the way that NPCs might be implemented in llDetectedType. A patch can be found in Mantis 6066.
>>
>> In the events touch, collision and sensor one can use the function llDetectedType which return some basic infos
>> on what type of object/agent... has been detected by the event. To complete this function, we still need to add
>> NPCs as type. Sofar, so good...
>>
>> NPC do however also have the possebility to be created using OS_NPC_SENCE_AS_AGENT. This was implemented sothat
>> NPCs would work with sensor events ( without changing the lsl script). At that time NPCs were not implemented to
>> llDetectedType which one could have easely used to change the lsl script to work with NPCs and/OR agents instead
>> of implementing OS_NPC_SENCE_AS_AGENT. The result is, that using OS_NPC_SENCE_AS_AGENT would return an agent when
>> using llDetected AND that there is NO way to know if the event was triggered by an agent or NPC without forcing
>> the users to enable osIsNPC for everybody, and I do realy mean everybody. For me and some other projects I know
>> of, this will have fatal sideeffects.
>>
>>
>>
>> Let look at our 3 avatar type, normal agent, liblibomv bot and NPC's and how these can be used for identification.
>>
>> Situation 1) A closed grid with hypergrid disabled.
>>
>> - Normal agent = registered at grid, unique uuid + name within grid, controled by human
>> - Bots = basicaly same as agent, registered at grid, with unique uuid + name within grid, but remotly controled
>> by software
>> - NPC = NOT registered, unique uuid within grid, ANY fictional OR existing name possible and like bots remotly
>> controled.
>>
>> If llDetectedType return agent for NPCs using OS_NPC_SENSE_AGENT we only could detect the NPC using
>> llRequestAgentData to see if we get a posetive respone via DATA_NAME (unless the region itself detects the online
>> NPC as agent and returns the NPC data, havnt tested that yet.) In any case, the uuid remains unique and can always
>> be used to identify a single agent/npc/bot
>>
>> Situation 2) Multigrid system with hypergrid enabled.
>>
>> - Normal agent = registered at grid, unique uuid + name within grid, controled by human, surname changes with
>> hypergrid, name supplies griddata on hypergrid travels
>> - Bots = basicaly same as agent, registered at grid, with unique uuid + name within grid, but remotly controled
>> by software, surname changes with hypergrid, name supplies griddata on hypergrid travels
>> - NPC = NOT registered, unique uuid within grid, ANY fictional OR existing name possible and like bots remotly
>> controled.
>>
>> The uuid - name relation is still unique WITHIN a grid, but the same uuid-name relationship can be used in
>> multiple grids by DIFFRENT users. However when hypergrid traveling the name changes and one can extract the agents
>> origin grid sothat one recieves a unique uuid+name+grid relationship. In a multigrid system were llDetectedType
>> return agent for NPCs using OS_NPC_SENSE_AGENT there is NO method using plain lsl to get the unique uuid+name+grid
>> relationship, llRequestAgentData is not available in all grids from the hypergrid visitor. The names of NPCs are
>> NOT unique within a grid AND the uuid could already exist in another grid for an agent. The uuid alone CAN'T be
>> used to identify a single agent/bot/npc in a multi grid system which is hypergrid enabled.
>>
>> Short summary: In a mutligrid system with hypergrid each agent/bot has a unique uuid - name - grid relationship
>> were 2 elements are needed for identification, in a single grid without hypergrid the uuid is enough to identify
>> each agent/bot/npc. In a multigrid system NPC have to be identified as NPC sothat one can identify the NPC using
>> uuid + grid.
>>
>>
>>
>> As mentioned there is no plain lsl method for identification in a multiple grid system with hypergrid if
>> llDetectedType returns an Agent for NPCs using OS_NPC_SENSE_AGENT. In Opensim we do have OSSL function which could
>> be used to help to distinguish between a registered agent and a NPC, eg. osIsNPC. The problem is however, that a
>> multigrid system would have to have multiple scripts available for all sorts of ossl combinations.
>>
>> a) No NPCs allowed for anyone - script does not need any NPCs and all event can only be triggered by agents.
>> b) NPCs allowed for 1 or more users, osIsNPC not enabled - Our script CAN'T recognize an NPC, so the service has
>> to be excluded and may not be used on that region
>> c) NPC allowed for 1 or more users, osIsNPC enabled for those users - Our script CAN'T recognize an NPC if the
>> script is owned by someone not enabled to use osIsNPC, so the service has to be excluded and may not be used on
>> that region.
>> d) NPC allowed for 1 or more users, osIsNPC enabled for everyone - Our script can now use osIsNPC nowmatter who
>> the owner is, only now we can recognize NPCs
>>
>> So if your offering a multigrid service, were we need 2 elements for identification, it is required to have
>> atleast 2 script. 1 script for regions were noone can use NPCs and another were osIsNPC is enabled for everyone.
>> This means that atleast 2 scripts need to be maintained by the scriptor and a huge support team which has to
>> personaly speak to each customer to explain what script to use etc etc. Latest after 1 year the customer has
>> forgotten everything and changes the NPC settings, which messes up the agent identification or the region owner
>> changes something without notifying the parcelwoners because he himself only wants to try something.
>>
>> Now if the script is in a hud, then we never know what region settings are configured on the region we visit. So
>> as we dont know anything about the settings, our entire uuid+name+grid relation is useless and we have NO method
>> atall for identification in a multigrid system with hypergrid enabled. All ossl that could be used for NPC
>> detection must be considered not avialble while NPC can be used by others.
>>
>> One could create extra modules to help us, but latest if a closed grid is involved we are not able to run our
>> additional module. So thats also not an option.
>>
>>
>> Résumé: The only method that would help in a multigrid system is, if llDetectedType ALWAYS returns NPC nomatter
>> what settings is used and AGENT for any agent/bot. Enabling OS_NPC_SENSE_AGENT to alow llDetectedType to return
>> agent makes all 3rd party systems in a multigrid hypergrid enabled enviroment virtualy impossible to handle.
>>
>>
>> It was thus also my intention to get this issue solved prior to implementation of osNPCTouch, but for that it is
>> to late now anyway :(.
>>
>> Michelle Argus
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Justin Clark-Casey (justincc)
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