[Opensim-dev] llDetectedType and NPC's

Tue Jul 10 00:51:32 UTC 2012

Just a short question. why did we not named the NPC's OSNPC ? then i 
think you dont get quick problems with sl.

On 2012-07-10 02:30, Justin Clark-Casey wrote:
> Argus, I'm a little confused.  Some of what you say seems to concern 
> NPCs going to other regions via Hypergrid.  But OS NPCs are bound to 
> the region they are instantiated in.  Possibly they may be able to 
> cross to regions in the same simulator in the future, but they will 
> never be able to go to other simulators, let alone Hypergrid.
>
> So I'm assuming you're talking about reliable NPC detection in a 
> Hypergrid situation.  Ultimately, this is impossible because the 
> OpenSimulator operator can always change the code to return what they 
> like.  So it doesn't matter what function the script uses - it can 
> always be fooled.
>
> I don't personally object to extending llDetectedType() to return NPC, 
> though NPC was a poor choice of constant name imo since it could clash 
> with Linden developments in the future.  I also don't object to some 
> config value to stop the use of OS_NPC_SENSE_AS_AGENT on a particular 
> simulator.  But being able to use NPCs with existing scripts is very 
> useful in some contexts so if llDetectedType() is to be extended it 
> must accomodate that option for consistency with everything else.
>
> Perhaps you could provide a concrete example.  Not a whole script but 
> described functionality for some real in-world tool.
>
> On 08/07/12 20:22, Argus wrote:
>> Quote: "If your solution is dependent on deviating from  the SL 
>> definition for any "ll" API call, it may be easier for
>> all involved in the future if you can redesign it such as to avoid 
>> future incompatibilities."
>>
>>   The implementation of NPCs are causing the deviations from SL while 
>> all my scripts are based on the SL definitions and
>> also run 1:1 in SL. If there would be a possebility to solve this 
>> issue, I also would redesign my application, but sofar
>> I havnt found any relyable method for NPC detection other than 
>> llDetectedType returning NPC even when using
>> OS_NPC_SENCE_AS_AGENT. Even in our Opensim code we find the name 
>> changes for hg visitors implemented as detection with
>> the deffrence that NPC are excluded via the opensim code.
>>
>> This is also a problem for others, it not only me who is having 
>> issues with NPC detection.
>>
>>
>> Am 08.07.2012 20:26, schrieb Dahlia Trimble:
>>> In general it's not a good idea to extend any "ll" function beyond 
>>> the equivalent SL definition as there is no
>>> guarantee that LL may add any new functionality that may conflict in 
>>> the future. If this were to happen it would be
>>> difficult to resolve the conflicts as there would be scripts in use 
>>> that depend on the conflicting definitions. Also
>>> some scripters don't always use symbolic constants (a terrible 
>>> practice but it does happen) so it's not just a matter
>>> of changing a conflicting value for  a constant and recompiling. If 
>>> your solution is dependent on deviating from the
>>> SL definition for any "ll" API call, it may be easier for all 
>>> involved in the future if you can redesign it such as to
>>> avoid future incompatibilities.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 3:14 AM, Argus <argus at archimuh.de 
>>> <mailto:argus at archimuh.de>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     Hi.
>>>
>>>      I have a problem with the way that NPCs might be implemented in 
>>> llDetectedType. A patch can be found in Mantis 6066.
>>>
>>>      In the events touch, collision and sensor one can use the 
>>> function llDetectedType which return some basic infos
>>>     on what type of object/agent... has been detected by the event. 
>>> To complete this function, we still need to add
>>>     NPCs as type. Sofar, so good...
>>>
>>>      NPC do however also have the possebility to be created using 
>>> OS_NPC_SENCE_AS_AGENT. This was implemented sothat
>>>     NPCs would work with sensor events ( without changing the lsl 
>>> script). At that time NPCs were not implemented to
>>>     llDetectedType which one could have easely used to change the 
>>> lsl script to work with NPCs and/OR agents instead
>>>     of implementing OS_NPC_SENCE_AS_AGENT. The result is, that using 
>>> OS_NPC_SENCE_AS_AGENT would return an agent when
>>>     using llDetected AND that there is NO way to know if the event 
>>> was triggered by an agent or NPC without forcing
>>>     the users to enable osIsNPC for everybody,  and I do realy mean 
>>> everybody. For me and some other projects I know
>>>     of, this will have fatal sideeffects.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>       Let look at our 3 avatar type, normal agent, liblibomv bot and 
>>> NPC's and how these can be used for identification.
>>>
>>>     Situation 1) A closed grid with hypergrid disabled.
>>>
>>>     - Normal agent = registered at grid, unique uuid + name within 
>>> grid, controled by human
>>>     - Bots = basicaly same as agent, registered at grid,  with 
>>> unique uuid + name within grid, but remotly controled
>>>     by software
>>>     - NPC = NOT registered, unique uuid within grid, ANY fictional 
>>> OR existing name possible and like bots remotly
>>>     controled.
>>>
>>>     If llDetectedType return agent for NPCs using OS_NPC_SENSE_AGENT 
>>> we only could detect the NPC using
>>>     llRequestAgentData to see if we get a posetive respone via 
>>> DATA_NAME (unless the region itself detects the online
>>>     NPC as agent and returns the NPC data, havnt tested that yet.) 
>>> In any case, the uuid remains unique and can always
>>>     be used to identify a single agent/npc/bot
>>>
>>>     Situation 2) Multigrid system with hypergrid enabled.
>>>
>>>     - Normal agent = registered at grid, unique uuid + name within 
>>> grid, controled by human, surname changes with
>>>     hypergrid, name supplies griddata on hypergrid travels
>>>     - Bots = basicaly same as agent, registered at grid,  with 
>>> unique uuid + name within grid, but remotly controled
>>>     by software, surname changes with hypergrid, name supplies 
>>> griddata on hypergrid travels
>>>     - NPC = NOT registered, unique uuid within grid, ANY fictional 
>>> OR existing name possible and like bots remotly
>>>     controled.
>>>
>>>      The uuid - name relation is still unique WITHIN a grid, but the 
>>> same uuid-name relationship can be used in
>>>     multiple grids by DIFFRENT users. However when hypergrid 
>>> traveling the name changes and one can extract the agents
>>>     origin grid sothat one recieves a unique uuid+name+grid 
>>> relationship. In a multigrid system were llDetectedType
>>>     return agent for NPCs using OS_NPC_SENSE_AGENT there is NO 
>>> method using plain lsl to get the unique uuid+name+grid
>>>     relationship,  llRequestAgentData is not available in all grids 
>>> from the hypergrid visitor. The names of NPCs are
>>>     NOT unique within a grid AND the uuid could already exist in 
>>> another grid for an agent. The uuid alone CAN'T be
>>>     used to identify a single agent/bot/npc in a multi grid system 
>>> which is hypergrid enabled.
>>>
>>>      Short summary: In a mutligrid system with hypergrid each 
>>> agent/bot has a unique uuid - name - grid relationship
>>>     were 2 elements are needed for identification, in a single grid 
>>> without hypergrid the uuid is enough to identify
>>>     each agent/bot/npc. In a multigrid system NPC have to be 
>>> identified as NPC sothat one can identify the NPC using
>>>     uuid + grid.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     As mentioned there is no plain lsl method for identification in 
>>> a multiple grid system with hypergrid if
>>>     llDetectedType returns an Agent for NPCs using 
>>> OS_NPC_SENSE_AGENT. In Opensim we do have OSSL function which could
>>>     be used to help to distinguish between a registered agent and a 
>>> NPC, eg. osIsNPC. The problem is however, that a
>>>     multigrid system would have to have multiple scripts available 
>>> for all sorts of ossl combinations.
>>>
>>>     a) No NPCs allowed for anyone - script does not need any NPCs 
>>> and all event can only be triggered by agents.
>>>     b) NPCs allowed  for 1 or more users, osIsNPC not enabled - Our 
>>> script CAN'T recognize an NPC, so the service has
>>>     to be excluded and may not be used on that region
>>>     c) NPC allowed for 1 or more users, osIsNPC enabled for those 
>>> users - Our script CAN'T recognize an NPC if the
>>>     script is owned by someone not enabled to use osIsNPC, so the 
>>> service has to be excluded and may not be used on
>>>     that region.
>>>     d) NPC allowed for 1 or more users, osIsNPC enabled for everyone 
>>> - Our script can now use osIsNPC nowmatter who
>>>     the owner is, only now we can recognize NPCs
>>>
>>>     So if your offering a multigrid service, were we need 2 elements 
>>> for identification, it is required to have
>>>     atleast 2 script. 1 script for regions were noone can use NPCs 
>>> and another were osIsNPC is enabled for everyone.
>>>     This means that atleast 2 scripts need to be maintained by the 
>>> scriptor and a huge support team which has to
>>>     personaly speak to each customer to explain what script to use 
>>> etc etc. Latest after 1 year the customer has
>>>     forgotten everything and changes the NPC settings, which messes 
>>> up the agent identification or the region owner
>>>     changes something without notifying the parcelwoners because he 
>>> himself only wants to try something.
>>>
>>>      Now if the script is in a hud, then we never know what region 
>>> settings are configured on the region we visit. So
>>>     as we dont know anything about the settings, our entire 
>>> uuid+name+grid relation is useless and we have NO method
>>>     atall for identification in a multigrid system with hypergrid 
>>> enabled. All ossl that could be used for NPC
>>>     detection must be considered not avialble while NPC can be used 
>>> by others.
>>>
>>>     One could create extra modules to help us, but latest if a 
>>> closed grid is involved we are not able to run our
>>>     additional module. So thats also not an option.
>>>
>>>
>>>     Résumé: The only method that would help in a multigrid system 
>>> is, if llDetectedType ALWAYS returns NPC nomatter
>>>     what settings is used and AGENT for any agent/bot. Enabling 
>>> OS_NPC_SENSE_AGENT to alow llDetectedType to return
>>>     agent makes all 3rd party systems in a multigrid hypergrid 
>>> enabled enviroment virtualy impossible to handle.
>>>
>>>
>>>     It was thus also my intention to get this issue solved prior to 
>>> implementation of osNPCTouch, but for that it is
>>>     to late now anyway :(.
>>>
>>>     Michelle Argus
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
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