[Opensim-dev] Leaving Project

Mon Nov 23 14:53:53 UTC 2009

Kyle tells it like it is :)

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 8:46 AM, Kyle <create at reactiongrid.com> wrote:

>  I would like to thank the Opensim developers for producing an amazingly
> stable Alpha in a couple of years sans millions or even thousands of $$ of
> critically needed capital that most development teams have for such a large
> project.  Some people feel the core developers and other testers, builders
> etc have not done enough to further the project in certain areas and yet
> this is exactly why the developers are so concerned with building a platform
> for solutions for you to build upon, not a solution in itself.
>
>
>
> Why did they choose this path of pluggable architecture and not deliver a
> solution in their vision?   Because they have a vision bigger than that,
> they envision a community rallying around their hard work on the core of
> this system who add in their own needed elements on top of the base being
> created.  To complain that you have not made a profit from the hard work of
> the volunteer developers shows a distinct lack of appreciation and a lack of
> personal motivation to get things done as an individual working with a
> larger group.
>
>
>
> I myself experiment with Unity3D to handle some things OpenSim does not
> focus on.  However the magic of Opensim, easy user created content, is no
> trivial matter to recreate elsewhere.  Most do not understand the difficult
> architecture of building a real-time, user created system.  To make any
> other platform do this aspect is no trivial task which is why Opensim is the
> only alternative out there to SL (same company that promised an opensource
> server).
>
>
>
> So if you are leaving because an extensible platform that took years for
> volunteers to get has not catered to your specific needs then you missed the
> point of community.  IBM has not left Opensim I talk to them regularly and
> they are extremely motivated to see this project succeed.  In fact those
> leaving are missing 2010, which I feel is going to be a banner year for
> Opensim.
>
>
>
> While I understand the frustration of the lack of features vs SL and others
> I also understand the magic of, for example,  a teacher and student building
> concepts together with easy to use, affordable tools.  This community has
> given freely and I for one bow in respect to these gracious, giving and
> dedicated developers and testers and understand the incredibly complex job
> they face.  Kudos Opensim we are with you for the long term….
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de [mailto:
> opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] *On Behalf Of *Len Brown
> *Sent:* Monday, November 23, 2009 9:14 AM
>
> *To:* opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] Leaving Project
>
>
>
> If the goal of OpenSim is to be incompatible with everyone elses vision
> then I too have little further interest in the project.
>
>
> I'd hoped after IBM dropped OpenSim like a hot potato that the devs would
> realize the err of their ways and come round to a manageable and
> collaborative progression from then on, but unfortunately that doesn't seem
> to be the case.
>
> If the goal of OpenSim is to be "something different" but without any aim
> towards mass acceptance and compatibility than I too feel my time is
> wasted.  I have spent 8 to 12 hours a day for many weeks tediously copying
> hundreds of items from my stores and shops in Second Life to my private
> home-hosted OpenSim regions foolishly believing that they will remain
> compatible through OpenSim's future progression and that I could in turn
> share a good portion of my work with others since my desire for investment
> has been repeatedly turned down.
>
> I wish you all the best on your path.
>
> - Len W. Brown
>      lenwbrown at gmail.com
>
>  On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 7:31 AM, J Ross Nicoll <
> jrn2005 at cs.st-andrews.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> I think the point about OpenSim not being Second Life needs to be expanded
> to point out there are things attempting to be more of a complete solution.
> realXtend ( http://www.realxtend.org/ ), Reaction Grid (
> http://www.reactiongrid.com/ ) and SpotON3D ( https://spoton3d.com/ ) all
> spring to mind here.
>
>
>
> In terms of configuration, are you aware you can edit the Wiki yourself?
> You'll need to create an account and be logged in, then you should see an
> "Edit" link at the top of the page.
>
>
>
> In terms of donating money... the problem is a lack of a clear organisation
> to pay. However, I suspect a few people will do coding for hire if you have
> a specific feature request or bug fix wanted (Justin Clark-Casey
> http://justincc.org/blog/hire-me/ being the most likely candidate). Try
> e-mailing the mailing list asking for a quote for a specific problem you're
> having to be fixed?
>
>
>
> On 23 Nov 2009, at 13:06, Len Brown wrote:
>
>
>
>  Rock,
>
>      I sympathize with you on many levels.  I've also had my doubts
> regarding the future of OpenSim, but I have also maintained some degree of
> faith that things will pull through in the end.
>
>      For me the shock came when I was abruptly informed that "OpenSim is
> not Second Life, is not intended to be like Second Life, nor ever will."  I
> still haven't the foggiest idea what this developer had smoked for them to
> so strongly assert that incredibly false statement.
>
>      For me, the enjoyment of OpenSim has come from my intense devotion to
> building and skinning.  In fact, for the last few months I've been working
> on a full region that has many hundreds of skins, clothes, hair, furniture,
> etc, etc, that I'd like to package up as an OAR and give out freely, since
> repeatedly I've been told that instead of giving money to help further
> OpenSim I'd do more proactively by giving content.  So I plan to do just
> that and give my money to other open source initiatives that matter to me.
>
>      I have a passion for writing, and have thought many times that one of
> the greatest powers OpenSim would gain is having simple, straightforward,
> step-by-step instructions on how to download, compile, install, administer
> and overall just plain operate the core applications.  What kills me is that
> everyone who does a search for OpenSim inevitably hits the
> opensimulator.org site and that is where the massive roadblock presents
> itself.  It's useless for most and irrelevant to the few who consider
> themselves OpenSim experts.
>
>      Heck, even now on the configuration page it still displays info for
> 0.6.6 including (months old) known bugs in setting up region xml files.  If
> there was appointed a volunteer whose sole job was to keep information on
> opensimulator.org relevant that one task would resolve a mountain of
> negativity right there.  I sit here in front of my computers a good 10 to 12
> hours a day.
>
>      I would sincerely love to contribute to the OpenSim project,
> especially in documentation support.  But the thing holding me back is
> communication.  If I cannot get a straight answer on who to GIVE money to in
> order to help, then I stand little chance of getting clear, straight answers
> from developers when asking about issues I need to consider and incorporate
> in documentation.
>
>      If communication is a hurdle we can all overcome, with a genuine and
> heart-felt effort to relay information, motives, and plans with one another,
> then I'd sincerely appreciate having the opportunity to personally
> contribute.  I'm not a programmer today, but have a degree in programming
> fro the 90's (so much has changed my degree is practically useless in that
> regard).  But I do know how to explain things and relay information in
> simple terms.  But only if my own questions will be answered with more than
> "look it up or figure it out yourself" as my answer.
>
>      If any of you would appreciate my help, feel free to let me know at
> any time and I'll do what I can.
>
> - Len W. Brown
>      lenwbrown at gmail.com
>
> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 6:23 AM, Colin B. Withers <
> Colin.Withers at eumetsat.int> wrote:
>
> Hi guys,
>
> I have decided to leave the Opensim project. You will probably not even
> notice if I leave, as not being a programmer my only inputs were the writing
> of the step-by-step tutorials ( http://chapter-and-metaverse.blogspot.com/), the drafts of the OpenSim User Manual on the Forge, and helping out in
> the IRC channels, for newcomers.
>
> You may find my reasons for leaving Opensim interesting though (and please
> do not construe any of my reasons as an attack on anyone).
>
> 1. The Platform
> I raised this several times in the past in IRC, and made posts on my blog
> about the product lifecycle of the platform (
> http://rock-vacirca.blogspot.com/2009/02/direction-of-virtual-worlds.html). I believe that the platforms underpinning both Second Life and Opensim
> are quite long in the tooth now, and I questioned how much product lifecycle
> there was left, particularly given that Opensim is now nearing 3 years of
> development, is still in Alpha, and if the current release of 0.6.7 is any
> indicator, then still only around two thirds into the development cycle.
> With the (inevitable) coming of much superior platforms, such as Blue Mars
> and (as a virtual world); Unity, for browser-based Virtual Wolrds; and now
> UDK (for creating sandboxes, standalones, and open grids), then I fear that
> Opensim has missed the boat as far as the remaining lifecycle of the
> platform is concerned. When you show people what is possible with these
> engines (for example this avatar editor for the forthcom
>  ing APB (using the Unreal Engine):
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icR3LtEMvZI or this city:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmLzNbPXMDg (using the CryEngine), then
> neither SL not Opensim stands comparison.
>
> 2. Lack of Support for Currency in Opensim
> I felt the impact of this when I first made the switch from SL to Opensim.
> I had a thriving RP sim in SL (over 50 people, mainly female) and they all
> agreed to follow me over to my Opensim and the OSGrid. However, within a
> month they had all left, citing the same reason, the lack of places to shop,
> to buy the quality stuff they wanted (skins, hair, clothes etc), as a
> quality appearance, and the fun of shopping is what all the females placed
> high on their requirements from a Virtual World. They drifted back to Second
> Life, and the guys followed them. I have always believed that the lack of
> support for currency in the core was a mistake, but that is just my opinion.
>
> 3. Marketing
> I have also raised this issue several times, and blogged about it. It is
> far from clear just who an eventually released Opensim is actually aimed at.
> I think that any company that is interested in a firewalled corporate
> solution to collaboration and prototyping will already be looking at the
> Enterprise solution that is currently available from Second Life; that any
> indie group that is thinking of running a themed grid will need an economy
> to stay viable; and any individual who is looking for a private sandbox
> solution for their SL work will need full compatibility (which is not the
> case with the OS version of LSL diverging from the SL LSL). So, just who is
> the platform aimed at? I was also very disappointed in the view of one of
> the core devs who said that 'marketing is a null concept for us'.
>
> I am currently designing and creating cities for Blue Mars, and involved in
> a team for proving the UDK as a platform for the design and creation of
> Virtual Worlds (as opposed to purely games), and with so much documentation
> available for these mature engines (particularly for the UDK, Blue Mars lags
> behind somewhat in that department, but have hired extra staff to put that
> right), I am achieving the productivity I want, building the worlds that I
> want, with stable crash-free platforms.
>
> However, I do wish the Opensim team the very best in their endeavours, and
> I sincerely hope their goals are eventually achieved.
>
> If anyone would like to take over the Opensim Tutorials pages at
> http://chapter-and-metaverse.blogspot.com/ and
> http://chapter-and-metaverse2.blogspot.com/ (they will need some updating
> following several changes) then I am more than willing to pass the posts
> over, and of course the Opensim User Manual is there in the Forge for anyone
> to develop further.
>
> Best Regards and Good Luck
>
> Rock
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-dev mailing list
> Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-dev mailing list
> Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>
>
>
> ---
>
>
>
> Please CC all MMS related e-mails to fixit-mms at st-andrews.ac.uk.
>
> The University of St Andrews is a charity registered in Scotland: No
> SC013532.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-dev mailing list
> Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.75/2516 - Release Date: 11/22/09
> 14:40:00
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-dev mailing list
> Opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>
>

-- 
===================================
http://osgrid.org
http://del.icio.us/SPQR
http://twitter.com/jstallings2
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/5/770/a49
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://opensimulator.org/pipermail/opensim-dev/attachments/20091123/daf8911d/attachment-0001.html>