[Opensim-dev] Leaving Project

[Jeroen van Veen]

Wishlist 2010: 
* dump sl-client support
* embrace naali

Jeroen

On Monday 23 November 2009 14:53:53 James Stallings II wrote:
> Kyle tells it like it is :)
> 
> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 8:46 AM, Kyle <create at reactiongrid.com> wrote:
> >  I would like to thank the Opensim developers for producing an amazingly
> > stable Alpha in a couple of years sans millions or even thousands of $$
> > of critically needed capital that most development teams have for such a
> > large project.  Some people feel the core developers and other testers,
> > builders etc have not done enough to further the project in certain areas
> > and yet this is exactly why the developers are so concerned with building
> > a platform for solutions for you to build upon, not a solution in itself.
> >
> >
> >
> > Why did they choose this path of pluggable architecture and not deliver a
> > solution in their vision?   Because they have a vision bigger than that,
> > they envision a community rallying around their hard work on the core of
> > this system who add in their own needed elements on top of the base being
> > created.  To complain that you have not made a profit from the hard work
> > of the volunteer developers shows a distinct lack of appreciation and a
> > lack of personal motivation to get things done as an individual working
> > with a larger group.
> >
> >
> >
> > I myself experiment with Unity3D to handle some things OpenSim does not
> > focus on.  However the magic of Opensim, easy user created content, is no
> > trivial matter to recreate elsewhere.  Most do not understand the
> > difficult architecture of building a real-time, user created system.  To
> > make any other platform do this aspect is no trivial task which is why
> > Opensim is the only alternative out there to SL (same company that
> > promised an opensource server).
> >
> >
> >
> > So if you are leaving because an extensible platform that took years for
> > volunteers to get has not catered to your specific needs then you missed
> > the point of community.  IBM has not left Opensim I talk to them
> > regularly and they are extremely motivated to see this project succeed. 
> > In fact those leaving are missing 2010, which I feel is going to be a
> > banner year for Opensim.
> >
> >
> >
> > While I understand the frustration of the lack of features vs SL and
> > others I also understand the magic of, for example,  a teacher and
> > student building concepts together with easy to use, affordable tools. 
> > This community has given freely and I for one bow in respect to these
> > gracious, giving and dedicated developers and testers and understand the
> > incredibly complex job they face.  Kudos Opensim we are with you for the
> > long term….
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *From:* opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de [mailto:
> > opensim-dev-bounces at lists.berlios.de] *On Behalf Of *Len Brown
> > *Sent:* Monday, November 23, 2009 9:14 AM
> >
> > *To:* opensim-dev at lists.berlios.de
> > *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] Leaving Project
> >
> >
> >
> > If the goal of OpenSim is to be incompatible with everyone elses vision
> > then I too have little further interest in the project.
> >
> >
> > I'd hoped after IBM dropped OpenSim like a hot potato that the devs would
> > realize the err of their ways and come round to a manageable and
> > collaborative progression from then on, but unfortunately that doesn't
> > seem to be the case.
> >
> > If the goal of OpenSim is to be "something different" but without any aim
> > towards mass acceptance and compatibility than I too feel my time is
> > wasted.  I have spent 8 to 12 hours a day for many weeks tediously
> > copying hundreds of items from my stores and shops in Second Life to my
> > private home-hosted OpenSim regions foolishly believing that they will
> > remain compatible through OpenSim's future progression and that I could
> > in turn share a good portion of my work with others since my desire for
> > investment has been repeatedly turned down.
> >
> > I wish you all the best on your path.
> >
> > - Len W. Brown
> >      lenwbrown at gmail.com
> >
> >  On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 7:31 AM, J Ross Nicoll <
> > jrn2005 at cs.st-andrews.ac.uk> wrote:
> >
> > I think the point about OpenSim not being Second Life needs to be
> > expanded to point out there are things attempting to be more of a
> > complete solution. realXtend ( http://www.realxtend.org/ ), Reaction Grid
> > (
> > http://www.reactiongrid.com/ ) and SpotON3D ( https://spoton3d.com/ ) all
> > spring to mind here.
> >
> >
> >
> > In terms of configuration, are you aware you can edit the Wiki yourself?
> > You'll need to create an account and be logged in, then you should see an
> > "Edit" link at the top of the page.
> >
> >
> >
> > In terms of donating money... the problem is a lack of a clear
> > organisation to pay. However, I suspect a few people will do coding for
> > hire if you have a specific feature request or bug fix wanted (Justin
> > Clark-Casey http://justincc.org/blog/hire-me/ being the most likely
> > candidate). Try e-mailing the mailing list asking for a quote for a
> > specific problem you're having to be fixed?
> >
> >
> >
> > On 23 Nov 2009, at 13:06, Len Brown wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >  Rock,
> >
> >      I sympathize with you on many levels.  I've also had my doubts
> > regarding the future of OpenSim, but I have also maintained some degree
> > of faith that things will pull through in the end.
> >
> >      For me the shock came when I was abruptly informed that "OpenSim is
> > not Second Life, is not intended to be like Second Life, nor ever will." 
> > I still haven't the foggiest idea what this developer had smoked for them
> > to so strongly assert that incredibly false statement.
> >
> >      For me, the enjoyment of OpenSim has come from my intense devotion
> > to building and skinning.  In fact, for the last few months I've been
> > working on a full region that has many hundreds of skins, clothes, hair,
> > furniture, etc, etc, that I'd like to package up as an OAR and give out
> > freely, since repeatedly I've been told that instead of giving money to
> > help further OpenSim I'd do more proactively by giving content.  So I
> > plan to do just that and give my money to other open source initiatives
> > that matter to me.
> >
> >      I have a passion for writing, and have thought many times that one
> > of the greatest powers OpenSim would gain is having simple,
> > straightforward, step-by-step instructions on how to download, compile,
> > install, administer and overall just plain operate the core applications.
> >  What kills me is that everyone who does a search for OpenSim inevitably
> > hits the
> > opensimulator.org site and that is where the massive roadblock presents
> > itself.  It's useless for most and irrelevant to the few who consider
> > themselves OpenSim experts.
> >
> >      Heck, even now on the configuration page it still displays info for
> > 0.6.6 including (months old) known bugs in setting up region xml files. 
> > If there was appointed a volunteer whose sole job was to keep information
> > on opensimulator.org relevant that one task would resolve a mountain of
> > negativity right there.  I sit here in front of my computers a good 10 to
> > 12 hours a day.
> >
> >      I would sincerely love to contribute to the OpenSim project,
> > especially in documentation support.  But the thing holding me back is
> > communication.  If I cannot get a straight answer on who to GIVE money to
> > in order to help, then I stand little chance of getting clear, straight
> > answers from developers when asking about issues I need to consider and
> > incorporate in documentation.
> >
> >      If communication is a hurdle we can all overcome, with a genuine and
> > heart-felt effort to relay information, motives, and plans with one
> > another, then I'd sincerely appreciate having the opportunity to
> > personally contribute.  I'm not a programmer today, but have a degree in
> > programming fro the 90's (so much has changed my degree is practically
> > useless in that regard).  But I do know how to explain things and relay
> > information in simple terms.  But only if my own questions will be
> > answered with more than "look it up or figure it out yourself" as my
> > answer.
> >
> >      If any of you would appreciate my help, feel free to let me know at
> > any time and I'll do what I can.
> >
> > - Len W. Brown
> >      lenwbrown at gmail.com
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 6:23 AM, Colin B. Withers <
> > Colin.Withers at eumetsat.int> wrote:
> >
> > Hi guys,
> >
> > I have decided to leave the Opensim project. You will probably not even
> > notice if I leave, as not being a programmer my only inputs were the
> > writing of the step-by-step tutorials (
> > http://chapter-and-metaverse.blogspot.com/), the drafts of the OpenSim
> > User Manual on the Forge, and helping out in the IRC channels, for
> > newcomers.
> >
> > You may find my reasons for leaving Opensim interesting though (and
> > please do not construe any of my reasons as an attack on anyone).
> >
> > 1. The Platform
> > I raised this several times in the past in IRC, and made posts on my blog
> > about the product lifecycle of the platform (
> > http://rock-vacirca.blogspot.com/2009/02/direction-of-virtual-worlds.html
> >). I believe that the platforms underpinning both Second Life and Opensim
> > are quite long in the tooth now, and I questioned how much product
> > lifecycle there was left, particularly given that Opensim is now nearing
> > 3 years of development, is still in Alpha, and if the current release of
> > 0.6.7 is any indicator, then still only around two thirds into the
> > development cycle. With the (inevitable) coming of much superior
> > platforms, such as Blue Mars and (as a virtual world); Unity, for
> > browser-based Virtual Wolrds; and now UDK (for creating sandboxes,
> > standalones, and open grids), then I fear that Opensim has missed the
> > boat as far as the remaining lifecycle of the platform is concerned. When
> > you show people what is possible with these engines (for example this
> > avatar editor for the forthcom
> >  ing APB (using the Unreal Engine):
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icR3LtEMvZI or this city:
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmLzNbPXMDg (using the CryEngine), then
> > neither SL not Opensim stands comparison.
> >
> > 2. Lack of Support for Currency in Opensim
> > I felt the impact of this when I first made the switch from SL to
> > Opensim. I had a thriving RP sim in SL (over 50 people, mainly female)
> > and they all agreed to follow me over to my Opensim and the OSGrid.
> > However, within a month they had all left, citing the same reason, the
> > lack of places to shop, to buy the quality stuff they wanted (skins,
> > hair, clothes etc), as a quality appearance, and the fun of shopping is
> > what all the females placed high on their requirements from a Virtual
> > World. They drifted back to Second Life, and the guys followed them. I
> > have always believed that the lack of support for currency in the core
> > was a mistake, but that is just my opinion.
> >
> > 3. Marketing
> > I have also raised this issue several times, and blogged about it. It is
> > far from clear just who an eventually released Opensim is actually aimed
> > at. I think that any company that is interested in a firewalled corporate
> > solution to collaboration and prototyping will already be looking at the
> > Enterprise solution that is currently available from Second Life; that
> > any indie group that is thinking of running a themed grid will need an
> > economy to stay viable; and any individual who is looking for a private
> > sandbox solution for their SL work will need full compatibility (which is
> > not the case with the OS version of LSL diverging from the SL LSL). So,
> > just who is the platform aimed at? I was also very disappointed in the
> > view of one of the core devs who said that 'marketing is a null concept
> > for us'.
> >
> > I am currently designing and creating cities for Blue Mars, and involved
> > in a team for proving the UDK as a platform for the design and creation
> > of Virtual Worlds (as opposed to purely games), and with so much
> > documentation available for these mature engines (particularly for the
> > UDK, Blue Mars lags behind somewhat in that department, but have hired
> > extra staff to put that right), I am achieving the productivity I want,
> > building the worlds that I want, with stable crash-free platforms.
> >
> > However, I do wish the Opensim team the very best in their endeavours,
> > and I sincerely hope their goals are eventually achieved.
> >
> > If anyone would like to take over the Opensim Tutorials pages at
> > http://chapter-and-metaverse.blogspot.com/ and
> > http://chapter-and-metaverse2.blogspot.com/ (they will need some updating
> > following several changes) then I am more than willing to pass the posts
> > over, and of course the Opensim User Manual is there in the Forge for
> > anyone to develop further.
> >
> > Best Regards and Good Luck
> >
> > Rock
> >
> >
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> >
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> >
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> >
> >
> >
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> >
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